Lately I've wanted to do some military SF stuff with, like, armored cav battalions and flight squadrons and legions and crap.
Trouble is I don't know my fire groups from my companies.
Where can I learn some stuff about how military units are organized? I found a wiki page, and it's a start. But I want more!
Military unit sizes and desigations, typical components (which will likely vary from nation to nation -- the Sontarans might field more tanks in one unit tha the Goltainians do), etc.
Also, the differences between naval or starships-- cruisers vs. dreadnoughts vs etc.
Thanks!
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Lately I've wanted to do some military SF stuff with, like, armored cav battalions and flight squadrons and legions and crap.
Trouble is I don't know my fire groups from my companies.
Where can I learn some stuff about how military units are organized? I found a wiki page, and it's a start. But I want more!
Military unit sizes and desigations, typical components (which will likely vary from nation to nation -- the Sontarans might field more tanks in one unit tha the Goltainians do), etc.
It varies a
lot by army. For example, the US tends to use fire teams of 4-5 men grouped into squads of 2-3 fireteams, whereas the 'Commonwealth model' is of a section of 8-10 as the fundamental unit (the Soviets also used a section as their smallest unit). A platoon is usually three squads/sections, possibly with some extra support weapons (missiles, light mortars, machineguns) though these might be 'on loan' from the company.
A company is usually 3 platoons, plus a section/squad of support weapons, and medics, radiomen, drivers, and such.
Most armies use this sort of pyramid, with 3-5 units in each step, because that's been found to be about as many 'manoeuvre elements' as a commander can keep track of - more than that and a commander tends to lump them together until he's only tracking that 3-5 range of units, fewer and the commander can't use his men flexibly (unless he breaks units up, and that does bad things to command and control and morale).
It's (very) late, so I have to stop here, but I recommend tracking down some cold-war books on the Soviet army if you want to get a grip on this, as they had a nice clean unit structure and it didn't change a great deal. Once you've got to grips with it, look at the US army and marines, as their structures changed a lot through the cold war, so there's lots of inspiration, and as some of the formations didn't work well, there's food for thought, too.
QuoteAlso, the differences between naval or starships-- cruisers vs. dreadnoughts vs etc.
Thanks!
Most SF naval classification systems are based on RL navies in the WWI to WWII period. In order from smallest to largest it went like this:
Corvette, Sloop, etc. - a small ship, lightly armed, used for various jobs.
Frigate - term obsolete until resurrected in WWII for Destroyer Escort sized anti-submarine ships
Destroyer Escort - a small, cheap destroyer
Destroyer - a small fast ship intended to escort larger ships, usually armed with torpedoes and so capable of doing considerable damage to a larger ship if it gets lucky (this sort of luck is usually generated by using lots of destroyers).
Light Cruiser - a cruiser armed as armoured more lightly than a heavy/armoured cruiser. Often not significantly smaller.
Heavy or Armoured Cruiser - a large fast ship with some armour, fairly heavy guns, and long range. Capable of long patrols and very flexible - they can perform just about any of the tasks you'd want and armed warship for.
Battleship/Dreadnaught - a very large ship, with very heavy armour and guns. May or may not have long range, moderately fast. In a one-on-one 'fair fight' a battleship will defeat even a heavy cruiser without breaking a sweat.
Battlecruiser - a battleship sized ship that sacrifices either armour or weight of gun for more speed (many SF settings make these intermediate in size and power between cruisers and battleships).
Fast Battleship - a battleship that is fast (as in cruiser and battlecruiser fast). These effectively replaced both battlecruisers and battleships by WWII, and were possible because ships got bigger and engine technology advanced.
Other models include 'Age of Sail':
Ship of the Line - a battleship, these came in 'rates' (1st rate, 2nd rate, etc), usually divided up by how many guns they carried.
Frigate - a smaller, but still large ship, often a small ship-of-the-line in all but name, or an old SotL that had its top deck cut off to make it faster and more responsive (also cheaper to operate)
Various small ships - Bark, Barkquentine, Sloop, Cutter. Often named for their rig, rather than their size or role (though rig can imply role).
Rupert?
I want you to have a medal.
Thanks!
hey buddy!
here's the closest thing to the "smart book" we had to carry in Basic.
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/armyietguide.pdf (http://usmilitary.about.com/library/pdf/armyietguide.pdf)
section 1.5 specifically refers to unit organization. this is of course Army-specific, but there's a few other tidbits in there that might be worth checking out, too.
enjoy!
Domo, yo!
Here's the general organization, from platoon to army:
Platoon - variously organized, but 20-60 men, commanded by a Lieutenant.
Company - 2 to 8 (usually 4-5) platoons, commanded by a Captain or Major.
Battalion - 2-6 (usually 3-4) companies, commanded by a Lt. Colonel.
Regiment - 2 or more battalions, commanded by a Colonel.
Brigade - 2 or more regiments, or the equivalent in Battalions, commanded by a Brigadier General.
Division - 2-4 brigades, commanded by a Major General.
Corps - 2 or more divisions, commanded by a Lieutenant General.
Army - 2 or more corps, commanded by a General.
Army Group - 2 or more armies, commanded by a General of Armies/Field Marshal.
This, of course, varies, but should serve as a general guide. In wartime, you might have battalions or even regiments commanded by Majors.
In general terms, a division is a fundamental unit of maneuver, as it tends to be self-contained, while a regiment is a fundamental unit of administration.
For ships, Rupert did a nice job, but I can add some more info:
Boat: A small vessel that can theoretically be carried on a ship. Thus a Patrol Torpedo Boat (PT Boat) from WWII was considered a 'boat' not a ship. Submarines were considered as boats until after WWII. Commanded by a Lieutenant or Lt. Commander.
Corvette came from a French word for a ship smaller than a Frigate, but very much like one - une Frigate en petite. They would do the same things a Frigate would do, but were smaller. Commanded by a Lt. Commander.
A Frigate is a small, swift vessel intended for patrol and escort duties. In sailing days, it was the smallest ship commanded by a captain, but these days usually by a Lt. Commander or Commander. They evolved from the Destroyer Escorts of WWI and II.
A Destroyer is a large patrol ship, with primarily defensive duties, though capable of offense. They were designed to screen larger ships from depredations of smaller craft, like subs or PT boats. They are the real evolution of the old sailing Frigates, and are commanded by Captains.
Cruisers come in many variations, but are always between a destroyer and a capital ship like a battleship or a carrier in size. They may be armed as well as a battleship, with lighter armor, or they may be lightly armed and fast, like an overgrown destroyer, or they may be heavily armored and armored but slow. They are commanded by Captains.
Battleships are very large vessels - capital ships - whose weapons are part of it. They are usually fast, heavily armored, and powerfully gunned. Currently, there are no battleships in commission. They are commanded by senior Captains.
Carriers vary widely, and are grouped together by function. A carrier's main armament is separate from it's body. A carrier's duties are to carry, deploy, and command many smaller craft. They range in size from a destroyer to larger than any battleship, and are commanded by senior Captains.
Admirals command fleets or flotillas, not individual ships.
Does that help?
-clash
-clash
Here's a great view of different sizes and types of carriers!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Fleet_5_nations.jpg/800px-Fleet_5_nations.jpg)
-clash
Clash,
Love the picture. What are all of the other vessels around the different carriers (very interesting, btw, and a great illustration of something you outlined in the P38 thread)?
Thanks,
Jim
This is awful, actually.
You see, you guys are giving me all this great, entry-level information, beyond price, and I'm at work and the danged phone won't stop ringing long enough for me to read and use it.
S'terrible.
Quote from: James J SkachClash,
Love the picture. What are all of the other vessels around the different carriers (very interesting, btw, and a great illustration of something you outlined in the P38 thread)?
Thanks,
Jim
Those are various types of escort vessels - frigates and destroyers I would say. Typical for a carrier task force.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceThose are various types of escort vessels - frigates and destroyers I would say. Typical for a carrier task force.
-clash
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I knew, or suspected, in general what they were. I was asking if you knew
specifically what the were. I ask only because the picture is of good you can really get a difference in size - so when someone says "frigate" I get the correct mental picture in my head....
I'm fairly certain the ship in the upper right corner is a Ticonderoga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticonderoga_class_cruiser) class cruiser.
Here's a decent site from the U.S. Navy.http://www.navy.mil/navydata/our_ships.asp (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/our_ships.asp)
Quote from: James J SkachSorry, I wasn't clear enough. I knew, or suspected, in general what they were. I was asking if you knew specifically what the were. I ask only because the picture is of good you can really get a difference in size - so when someone says "frigate" I get the correct mental picture in my head....
No, I don't know, James. The problem is those are multinational ships - French, British, and American - and thus hard to tell. I do think Berger King is correct, that the ship at the upper right is a cruiser. If so, there's no frigates there - just various destroyers and cruisers. Big carriers are so large now that they dwarf cruisers.
-clash
No problem, Clash. Just curious.
Great info, guys. I've always had trouble keeping the various platoon/company/battalion/etc. stuff straight.
You've probably seen this starship comparison (http://www.merzo.net/) page, and it's not as clean as frigate/destroyer/cruiser, but it might be useful.
Quote from: Berger KingYou've probably seen this starship comparison page, and it's not as clean as frigate/destroyer/cruiser, but it might be useful.
Yes. It is beautiful. Thank you!
In case anyone's wondering, I want to put together some pretend SF military forces for a wargame -- not an RPG, necessarily. I have stuff like
Starmada (http://mj12games.com/starmada/) and the awesome, very simple
Politics By Other Means (http://www.io.com/~hamster/freegames.htm#politics). I daydream of playing brief, day-long SF war campaigns with this stuff. Space battles, ground battles, air battles, intelligence gathering...stuff like that.
Hey, maybe I oughtta move this into a different forum, unless someone can come up with a role-playing theme in this thread, huh?
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Yes. It is beautiful. Thank you!
In case anyone's wondering, I want to put together some pretend SF military forces for a wargame -- not an RPG, necessarily. I have stuff like Starmada (http://mj12games.com/starmada/) and the awesome, very simple Politics By Other Means (http://www.io.com/~hamster/freegames.htm#politics). I daydream of playing brief, day-long SF war campaigns with this stuff. Space battles, ground battles, air battles, intelligence gathering...stuff like that.
Hey, maybe I oughtta move this into a different forum, unless someone can come up with a role-playing theme in this thread, huh?
Doc,
If you keep pretty good records of that day long game - it could be a really good background for an RPG campaign.
Several of my gaming friends and I have talked about doing one of those complex boardgames like
TWILIGHT IMPERIUM or
RISK 2210 - and then using what happened in the game as the starting point or background for an RPG mini-campaign.
- Ed C.
...
...Winner!
I know it isn't a link, but it would be cool if Clash's post about military organisation could be added to Kyle's sticky RPG links thread. It would be useful information, so would be better served in a readily accessible thread rather than *ahem*...buried in this one! :)
If I may add some more information, the basic thing that you are looking to do is come up with a Table of Organization and Equipment (abbreviated TOE or T/O&E). And others have given a lot of very good information on that. Something to remember is that there can be a lot of varience between time periods and groups as to the TOEs (obviously so for equipment) and also what the various units were and did. I would suggest that you organize your force sizes and then assign them names (like company, battalion, regiment, etc.). There is simply a lot of variation depending on what you want.
This should give you a bunch of links for you to play with.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=table+of+organization+and+equipment
Here are a few excellent places for more information
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/unit/toe/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/toe/index.html
http://www.752ndtank.com/TOEdetails.html
Don't be afraid to have one "Regiment" look one way and another look different, even if of the same type (like infantry). Also units (at least in the US military) down to battalion level have been on occasion designated as "Seperate" for various reasons and those units are much more independent and usually larger than another unit of the same "level."
Additional thought - if you can find old copies of the Traveller LLBs Stryker and Mercenary they both have fairly good TOs for Sci-Fi units.
In American aviation usage from WWII (which is what I am studying) the structure was:
2 planes = an Element.
3 Elements = a Flight. Flights are sequenced alphabetically, like Companies.
3-4 Flights = a Squadron. Squadrons are the basic administrative unit.
3+ Squadrons = various: A Wing (USN Shore-based) or a Carrier Air Group (USN Carrier-based) in the Navy. In Marines/Air Force a small group of Squadrons would be a Group, with a Wing a large group of Squadrons based at one HQ. A Group is the equivalent of a Regiment, and a Wing the equivalent of a Division.
-clash
Quote from: One Horse TownI know it isn't a link, but it would be cool if Clash's post about military organisation could be added to Kyle's sticky RPG links thread. It would be useful information, so would be better served in a readily accessible thread rather than *ahem*...buried in this one! :)
I just linked the whole thread in there, Dan. Theres lots of other neat stuff here as well. :D
-clash
Quote from: SionEwigIf I may add some more information, the basic thing that you are looking to do is come up with a Table of Organization and Equipment (abbreviated TOE or T/O&E). And others have given a lot of very good information on that. Something to remember is that there can be a lot of varience between time periods and groups as to the TOEs (obviously so for equipment) and also what the various units were and did. I would suggest that you organize your force sizes and then assign them names (like company, battalion, regiment, etc.). There is simply a lot of variation depending on what you want.
This should give you a bunch of links for you to play with.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=table+of+organization+and+equipment
Here are a few excellent places for more information
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/unit/toe/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/toe/index.html
http://www.752ndtank.com/TOEdetails.html
Don't be afraid to have one "Regiment" look one way and another look different, even if of the same type (like infantry). Also units (at least in the US military) down to battalion level have been on occasion designated as "Seperate" for various reasons and those units are much more independent and usually larger than another unit of the same "level."
Additional thought - if you can find old copies of the Traveller LLBs Stryker and Mercenary they both have fairly good TOs for Sci-Fi units.
All excellent advice! I have the Stryker and Mercenary books as well, and they are a good source of info!
-clash
Quote from: SionEwigAdditional thought - if you can find old copies of the Traveller LLBs Stryker and Mercenary they both have fairly good TOs for Sci-Fi units.
Y'mean like the .pdfs that cae on my CT CD-ROM?
Aces! Thanks!
Quote from: flyingmiceI just linked the whole thread in there, Dan. Theres lots of other neat stuff here as well. :D
-clash
Groovy!
What you want my friend are TOEs (Tables of Organization and Equipment) I think. Here's a link to start with then click through to TOE at the bottom.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/unit/toe/toenum.htm
Another example, this time WWII US:
http://www.752ndtank.com/TOEdetails.html
For a SF setting you may want to think about how analogous the various technological units are to modern equivalents. Basically you build from the core unit with ICWs (Individual Combat Weapons) and various heavier weapons (e.g., BAR in WWII US) at some per core unit ratio. Then you add in CSW (Crew Served Weapons) at some per core unit ratio, working your way up adding more and more integrated/associate support elements, artillary, armor, air support etc. as you grow. You need to add on a level of CCC (Command Control Communications) or in some modern parlance C4I (Command Control Communications Computers Intelligence) and maybe even the all important logistical/supply units are integrated/associated as well.
It's not so hard as it seems in that an Infantry TOE starts off with a core infantry squad but as it gets bigger adds in armor and artillery, but the first added infantry and artillery is first just a core unit of that branch.
edit I should read the thread more fully beofre psoting next time. It seems my TOE google fu has already been contributed. :)
Quote from: SionEwigAdditional thought - if you can find old copies of the Traveller LLBs Stryker and Mercenary they both have fairly good TOs for Sci-Fi units.
Striker and Mercenary are both good. Trillion Credit Squadron covers the space navy aspects
and has a self-contained small setting to fight out a campaign in[/i], the Island Clusters, settled by sleeper ships from Earth and isolated from the rest of the Traveller setting.
You can also supplement all that with some GURPS Traveller books, on the cheap ($10 each). Ground Forces for the organized troops (and a good view of military life and situations), Star Mercs is an update to Mercenary and covers warfare in general and the details of running a military campaign. They supplement each other nicely.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/products.html
I don't think GT Starships covers space navy details much, but MJD released his draft of such a book as Grand Fleet (http://www.comstar-games.com/csg-store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_13&products_id=11) (also on DTRPG IIRC). The earlier Imperial Squadrons book for T4 (on PDF through DTRPG) covered some similar ground and a game for campaigns but may be of less use since you already have campaign and battle rules. Goes with T4's Pocket Empires for dynasties and bootstrapping worlds but that may be too much stuff for what you're aiming for and both books may be too tied to Traveller.
I have those GT books, actually.
So -- I had all this info all along, but had to bother you guys? What is WRONG with me?!
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!What is WRONG with me?!
Well, to start with, you seem to be an unhealthy shade of green....
:what:
The cavalry--either horse or the modern armored version--uses the terms "squadron" and "troop" for battalion and company respectively, at least in US usage. Others use squadron at a company and troop as a platoon.
Then you have the artillery, which uses battery for its equivalent of a company and platoon/troop for smaller groupings of guns.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Lately I've wanted to do some military SF stuff with, like, armored cav battalions and flight squadrons and legions and crap.
Trouble is I don't know my fire groups from my companies.
Where can I learn some stuff about how military units are organized? I found a wiki page, and it's a start. But I want more!
Military unit sizes and desigations, typical components (which will likely vary from nation to nation -- the Sontarans might field more tanks in one unit tha the Goltainians do), etc.
Also, the differences between naval or starships-- cruisers vs. dreadnoughts vs etc.
Thanks!
Tom Clancy has a series of books on the military that I found quite informative without going into mind numbing detail. Airborne, every man a tiger are some of the few. These book basically take one element of military organization and explains. Like Every Man a Tiger is about an air wing.