Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 08:29:18 PM
While I've not read a lot of vampire fiction (I did read the classics), I think there isn't a single vampire movie that I haven't watched, yes... even twilight . Let the Right One In is one of my all time top 10 movies.

Taliesin's blog lists hundreds(?) of vampires movies and tv show episodes. Most of them aren't good, but I'm pretty sure there are good ones you're missing. I know I am.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 08:29:18 PM
The main theme I'm going for is that being a vampire is tough and while they are eternal creatures the irony is that most of them after being turned do end up having a lower lifespan than a normal human, so generation doesn't translate to power but years since turning do.

So you're using a "blood-potency" mechanic then? Like Everlasting, Requiem and V5? Or a level mechanic like Vampire: Undeath?

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 08:29:18 PM
I'll definitely check them out, ty for the recs.

Glad to help. I consider those required reading for anyone trying to write their own vampire-themed rpgs. Whenever you're writing anything, it always helps to read the classics (and cult classics) of the genre.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 08:29:18 PMAs for Feed I think the main difference is that my game will be more structured and rpg like and less storygame like. The vague understanding I could muster from reading a review, it seems that Feed is a toolbox focusing heavily on strain creation in character creation with storygame focus. Mine will be more focused on the past life career that the vampire had before turning. The tools in my game will be more for the GM, not so much for the players.

The game is free, so you can read the whole thing rather than just a review. You can say it is storygamey compared to traditional systems like d20, BRP, or GURPS, but I don't think it hits too many of the criteria for a stereotypical storygame. (I'm using this article as a reference point, since I'm not familiar with storygames.) Namely, I never got the impression that it was preoccupied with dissociative mechanics or play. Players aren't rewarded for behaving contrary to their PC's desires. Which is a relief for me because I'm not a fan of storygames. Both angsty addiction parables and b-movie splatterpunk are offered as sample settings, and the games rules don't assign moral judgment to the degeneration mechanic. I would say that, mechanically, it is superior at supporting "personal horror" compared to the many idiosyncrasies of ST system.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 08:29:18 PMAlso Feed looks like it uses a lot of dice, I will only use D6s (no pools tho).

Yes and no. Feed uses a dice pool task resolution mechanic with multiple types of dice but character traits are capped at 3 dice so it avoids the excessive dice rolling that scourges some other systems. The reason for the different dice is to represent flaws and otherwise non-advantageous traits. The rules don't have bonus/penalty bloat like other systems do, so I feel it evens out. I've considered replacing the task resolution with a one roll mechanic, but I haven't been motivated.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 01, 2022, 01:46:10 PM
So you're using a "blood-potency" mechanic then? Like Everlasting, Requiem and V5? Or a level mechanic like Vampire: Undeath?

It would be more akin to the "blood-potency" mechanic. There's no levels in the game, you gain XP after each session and you decide where you want invest those points, i.e., increasing an attribute or a skill or learning a new one.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 01, 2022, 01:46:10 PM
I'm not a fan of storygames. Both angsty addiction parables and b-movie splatterpunk are offered as sample settings, and the games rules don't assign moral judgment to the degeneration mechanic. I would say that, mechanically, it is superior at supporting "personal horror" compared to the many idiosyncrasies of ST system.

I'm not a fan of them either, I even think their existence just comes from an error made in the earlier days of the hobby that still persist in a lot of games today, which is the use of Charisma as an attribute. Most storygames also suffer from a error that novice writers tend to commit, which is having characters moving inside a plot instead of the plot coming forth because of characters actions.
One of the tools I'm spending a lot of time to craft is a NPC creation method so when PCs do something the GM would know exactly how that NPC would respond and therefore create the next situation effortlessly without having to rely on a pre written plot.

QuoteMost storygames also suffer from a error that novice writers tend to commit, which is having characters moving inside a plot instead of the plot coming forth because of characters actions.

Only not...? That's like quite opposed of philosophy behind modern storygame-RPGs. They usually are very pro-PC agenda, to the point of giving explicit powers over GM in specific situations, and basically forbading GM any planning, plotting and so on. They are also genre specific - which is somehow straightjacket and demands all players want to keep genre.

Character moving inside plot is characteristic of trad style that was born from all those simulationist skill-based games. Let's say Call of Cthulhu - this is game that usually assumes players are external force to go into plot and solve it, sure they can break all things Tarantino style, but generally they will be reactionary to mystery shown, not self-made heroes of D&D like fiction.
Like let's say WoD - by design it's game I'd call simulationist, mechanics means to simulate vampire or werewolf in fictional world. However proposed gameplay, style of adventures, and so on - was terribly railroady, GM was literally called Narrator or Storyteller and so on.

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 02, 2022, 08:01:11 PM
Only not...? That's like quite opposed of philosophy behind modern storygame-RPGs. They usually are very pro-PC agenda, to the point of giving explicit powers over GM in specific situations, and basically forbading GM any planning, plotting and so on.

How is it any different if the players are following a story written by the GM or them? IMO a good storygame should let the story blossom from actual play, not from PC or GM fiat. With good NPC tools the GM doesn't even need to left some things to chance because he knows exactly how a NPC is going to react, and is that reaction that will move the story, not randomness or gm/pcs goals.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 30, 2022, 07:28:49 PM
Hello, I'm new here so I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to post a question like this.

So I'm currently on the process (soon™) of releasing my first rpg . And I have a legal question about using some terms of another IP, that seem in my layperson view of the law fair use.
The setting of the game I'm developing is one of vampires and urban politics akin to VtM. Would the use of words like 'kindred', 'embrace', 'disciplines', terms that are defined in dictionaries, possible of legal repercussion? Currently the name of the project is Lost Kindred and those 3 words are really the only ones that are in VtM that I'm using.
I wouldn't mind changing the 'embrace' and 'discipline' terms but I really would want to use the word kindred.

Ty in advance.

BGG has a thread on this sort of stuff.
The advice is allways "Hire an IP lawyer".
Kindred is tied to VtM. Embrace, less so, and Disciple not at all.

If you used those words its going to make people think you are just ripping off that game. Come up with new words or use older more common words.

Turned instead of Embraced, Spawn instead of Kindred, Disciple not sure on as its not connected to vampires that I know of? Also helps that these words are more evocative and easier to grasp without a lexicon.

QuoteHow is it any different if the players are following a story written by the GM or them? IMO a good storygame should let the story blossom from actual play, not from PC or GM fiat. With good NPC tools the GM doesn't even need to left some things to chance because he knows exactly how a NPC is going to react, and is that reaction that will move the story, not randomness or gm/pcs goals.

It's not written because you know dice results mess thing up, and there's assumption usually there is no some string of events meant to happen, merely well genre as I said.
Like Blades in the Dark when it's assumed GM do not prepare any heists on spot, and it's best if players just invent idea of heist and go from there. But then because each roll is meant to have narrative consequence - they cannot be certain things will go as planned (they won't.) Meanwhile trad style was usually played on classic systems but with assumption of GM plotting some mystery and players then messing with it - as sort of external reactionary agents. In proper play there was lot to mess about - but it was common in adventures of this era to be tightly scripted even with tricks for GM how to force players on track. Generaly SG RPG wants to avoid it.

Now of course there is differences between RPGs of Storygame movement and Storygames proper that are usually one-shots with mechanics utterly devoided from PCs - like dunno Fiasco.
For such one shot - sure specific NPC tools should work. For game defined mostly by genre not so much.

Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2022, 09:07:51 PM

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 30, 2022, 07:28:49 PM
Hello, I'm new here so I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to post a question like this.

So I'm currently on the process (soon™) of releasing my first rpg . And I have a legal question about using some terms of another IP, that seem in my layperson view of the law fair use.
The setting of the game I'm developing is one of vampires and urban politics akin to VtM. Would the use of words like 'kindred', 'embrace', 'disciplines', terms that are defined in dictionaries, possible of legal repercussion? Currently the name of the project is Lost Kindred and those 3 words are really the only ones that are in VtM that I'm using.
I wouldn't mind changing the 'embrace' and 'discipline' terms but I really would want to use the word kindred.

Ty in advance.

BGG has a thread on this sort of stuff.
The advice is allways "Hire an IP lawyer".
Kindred is tied to VtM. Embrace, less so, and Disciple not at all.

If you used those words its going to make people think you are just ripping off that game. Come up with new words or use older more common words.

Turned instead of Embraced, Spawn instead of Kindred, Disciple not sure on as its not connected to vampires that I know of? Also helps that these words are more evocative and easier to grasp without a lexicon.

I'm also in favor of keeping a lexicon to an absolute minimum. There's a bunch of ways you could refer to vampirization: vampirize, turn, blood (as a verb), make, create, bring over, sire/dam, raise, damn, curse, baptize, join the dark side/night side/night shift, etc. You don't need to limit yourself to one either.

As for superpowers... superpowers? Magic? I don't see the need for new jargon here, they're superpowers. "Dark gifts", "dark arts," "dark powers" etc might work but sounds like goth poetry or (more charitably) a sermon against satanism.

As for a word to refer to vampires that isn't vampire... firstly I have to ask why this is even a thing? Anyway, you could devise all sorts of things: the Family, the bloody mafia, methuselahs (Trinity Blood does this one), darkspawn, nightbreed, children of the night, creatures of shadow, the noble dead, the hungry dead, demons, longtooths, fangbangers, "our kind," midianites, etc. I prefer to call them vampires because everybody does.

I'd argue that powers of supernatural beings are rarely called superpowers - this is term for comic book metahumans.
For vampires it's simply vampiric powers.

Anyway, what's the selling points for the game? Any previews or advertising blurbs ready yet?

Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2022, 09:07:51 PM

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 30, 2022, 07:28:49 PM
Hello, I'm new here so I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to post a question like this.

So I'm currently on the process (soon™) of releasing my first rpg . And I have a legal question about using some terms of another IP, that seem in my layperson view of the law fair use.
The setting of the game I'm developing is one of vampires and urban politics akin to VtM. Would the use of words like 'kindred', 'embrace', 'disciplines', terms that are defined in dictionaries, possible of legal repercussion? Currently the name of the project is Lost Kindred and those 3 words are really the only ones that are in VtM that I'm using.
I wouldn't mind changing the 'embrace' and 'discipline' terms but I really would want to use the word kindred.

Ty in advance.

BGG has a thread on this sort of stuff.
The advice is allways "Hire an IP lawyer".
Kindred is tied to VtM. Embrace, less so, and Disciple not at all.

If you used those words its going to make people think you are just ripping off that game. Come up with new words or use older more common words.

Turned instead of Embraced, Spawn instead of Kindred, Disciple not sure on as its not connected to vampires that I know of? Also helps that these words are more evocative and easier to grasp without a lexicon.

Good points all.  My IP attorney bills at $400 an hour and would probably charge me fifteen minutes to answer that question.  Or he might just answer it verbally for free because it's not worth his time to bill for such a small amount and we have an established relationship.  The money is well worth the peace of mind if you have any budget for the project, though finding a good IP attorney can be a bit of a chore.

The point about using such words making your work look derivative is definitely worth considering.

For the actual legality, I'm pretty sure that one cannot copyright single words.  You can trademark a single word for a specific application, and you can check if a word is trademarked at the uspto web site.  If it's not there you're legal, at least for now.  I dunno if they could trademark a word they use after you start using it - that would be a good question for a lawyer.

And lastly, anyone can sue anyone else about anything.  Or in other words you can get sued even if there is no legal justification, and if you don't have the money to defend then you'll either need to fold or find a contingency lawyer and hope you can win a countersuit.  I don't know if this is done much in the RPG industry, but if so it's probably not worth the trouble for a hobby project.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 04, 2022, 03:42:05 AM
For the actual legality, I'm pretty sure that one cannot copyright single words.  You can trademark a single word for a specific application, and you can check if a word is trademarked at the uspto web site.  If it's not there you're legal, at least for now.  I dunno if they could trademark a word they use after you start using it - that would be a good question for a lawyer.

And lastly, anyone can sue anyone else about anything.  Or in other words you can get sued even if there is no legal justification, and if you don't have the money to defend then you'll either need to fold or find a contingency lawyer and hope you can win a countersuit.  I don't know if this is done much in the RPG industry, but if so it's probably not worth the trouble for a hobby project.

You do not need a lawyer to tell you it is ok at a glance. You need one to do the research and THEN tell you it is ok or not.

You'd be surprised at what people have trademarked and copyrighted. Games Workshop has sued an author for using the word Space Marine for example. Lucas has sued lots of people over Droid.  A few years ago some jackass designer was threatening other game designers for using the word Frame to describe a mecha. And so on ad nausium.

What more often happens is someone trademarks some words connected to their work. Or copyrights the specific usage. Example. Contrary to popular belief. WOTC did not copyright or TM Tap. What their claim covers is a series of actions and the word Tap I believe.

UndeadMonk has already decided not to copy WW's pretentious emo goth jargon. It's all good now. I for one am glad. I hate that pretentious emo goth shit and I'm sick of hearing it whenever I want to read about or discuss the Bloodlines video game.

Quote from: Omega on April 04, 2022, 06:05:32 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 04, 2022, 03:42:05 AM
For the actual legality, I'm pretty sure that one cannot copyright single words.  You can trademark a single word for a specific application, and you can check if a word is trademarked at the uspto web site.  If it's not there you're legal, at least for now.  I dunno if they could trademark a word they use after you start using it - that would be a good question for a lawyer.

And lastly, anyone can sue anyone else about anything.  Or in other words you can get sued even if there is no legal justification, and if you don't have the money to defend then you'll either need to fold or find a contingency lawyer and hope you can win a countersuit.  I don't know if this is done much in the RPG industry, but if so it's probably not worth the trouble for a hobby project.

You do not need a lawyer to tell you it is ok at a glance. You need one to do the research and THEN tell you it is ok or not.

You'd be surprised at what people have trademarked and copyrighted. Games Workshop has sued an author for using the word Space Marine for example. Lucas has sued lots of people over Droid.  A few years ago some jackass designer was threatening other game designers for using the word Frame to describe a mecha. And so on ad nausium.

What more often happens is someone trademarks some words connected to their work. Or copyrights the specific usage. Example. Contrary to popular belief. WOTC did not copyright or TM Tap. What their claim covers is a series of actions and the word Tap I believe.

Very interesting on the rpg history stuff.

The "tap" thing was a patent.  I'm familiar with that as it relates to my actual work (patents, not taps). 

Just out of curiosity I looked up "kindred" on trademark search.  About 400 entries, which would take me less than an hour to research.  I suppose that's the other thing.  My IP attorney taught me how to figure out most of the research I needed to do on my own.  Then I'd contact him for anything I wasn't sure about.  Again, it's important to find a good IP attorney who's willing to do stuff like that.  Once you know the rules, trademarks look much easier than patents.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 30, 2022, 07:28:49 PM
Hello, I'm new here so I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to post a question like this.

So I'm currently on the process (soon™) of releasing my first rpg . And I have a legal question about using some terms of another IP, that seem in my layperson view of the law fair use.

Sounds like you need a lawyer.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 11:12:56 AM
I'm going for a Phoenician/Greek mythology origin story.

I have some more advice on this: namely, don't do this. What I mean is, don't have a central origin story for all the vampires. Try something different to set yourself apart. For example, maybe when people commit sufficient atrocities then they are damned by a higher power and become the founders of their own vampiric bloodlines. Or maybe someone who has suffered so much in life makes a pact with the dark powers with their dying breath and returns as a founder. This allows you to have new bloodlines pop up throughout history without needing to clumsily tie them into an existing bloodline (although you can still do that too, this wouldn't preclude that).