Hello, I'm new here so I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to post a question like this.

So I'm currently on the process (soon™) of releasing my first rpg . And I have a legal question about using some terms of another IP, that seem in my layperson view of the law fair use.
The setting of the game I'm developing is one of vampires and urban politics akin to VtM. Would the use of words like 'kindred', 'embrace', 'disciplines', terms that are defined in dictionaries, possible of legal repercussion? Currently the name of the project is Lost Kindred and those 3 words are really the only ones that are in VtM that I'm using.
I wouldn't mind changing the 'embrace' and 'discipline' terms but I really would want to use the word kindred.

Ty in advance.

First, IANAL.  I have a lot of experience in IP, but it's on the patent side of things.  In my opinion those terms are all used in quite a bit of vampire fiction in addition to being in the dictionary, so they should be fair game.  The one thing you need to watch out for is trademarks.  If someone has trademarked a term you want to use with respect to use in an RPG you might want to think up another word.

Personally, I'd avoid Kindred in relation to vampires as it is VERY WoD specific; literally no other vampire setting uses that term.

Personally I'd use Line or Bloodline for any sort of vampic lineage as that is pretty intuitive to vampirism. Similarly, Sire is fine, and Embrace is probably okay, though "turn" is what I've seen most commonly in general media. The one y

The huge thing you're going to want to avoid in terms of IP is the notion of Cain and Generations. Those are hugely specific to VtM.

I know you want to use Kindred, but it's so exclusive to WoD vampires (to the point it was the title for the TV show based on the property) that I doubt you'd be able to use it without Paradox's lawyers smacking you for it as soon as they learned of it.

Now if it applied to something other than vampires you might be able to get away with using it; say it applied to all supernaturals collectively because they all share some type of affinity... but as a vampire only term no way would I risk it... particularly when it's so easy to just use the Storyteller's Vault publishing for 3rd party Vampire material and use basically all their IP and mechanics. Unless you're married to unique mechanics, you'd probably do just as well to rework it as a AU setting and tap into the already extant VtM player base and marketing/distribution system.

I agree with Chris. Kindred is very risky. Other things less so, but may be if you use them all.
As always I support using foreign terms to do it.

For instance if your vampires like oWoD generally had Mesopotamian origin - go full bonkers and use Akkadian or at least Arabic terms for various vampire-specific things. They are after all - old, conservative beasts mostly.

Thanks for the inputs. Also put the question in rpg stackexchange and they gave me the same advice. Going to play it safe and not use any of the words.

Quote from: Wrath of God on March 31, 2022, 09:04:55 AM
As always I support using foreign terms to do it.

I already have some latin terms for the schools of magic (disciplines), but I'll try to use terms that make linguistic sense in the context of the setting, since I'm going for a Phoenician/Greek mythology origin story.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 30, 2022, 07:28:49 PM
Hello, I'm new here so I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to post a question like this.

So I'm currently on the process (soon™) of releasing my first rpg . And I have a legal question about using some terms of another IP, that seem in my layperson view of the law fair use.
The setting of the game I'm developing is one of vampires and urban politics akin to VtM. Would the use of words like 'kindred', 'embrace', 'disciplines', terms that are defined in dictionaries, possible of legal repercussion? Currently the name of the project is Lost Kindred and those 3 words are really the only ones that are in VtM that I'm using.
I wouldn't mind changing the 'embrace' and 'discipline' terms but I really would want to use the word kindred.

Ty in advance.

You're making a heartbreaker? Word of advice: you're really late to the party.

https://writeups.letsyouandhimfight.com/halloween-jack/the-everlasting-book-of-the-unliving/
https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/15/15765.phtml
https://web.archive.org/web/20071010183007/http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue7/howtowriteagame1.html

I suggest you read a wider variety of vampire fiction and then use what you learn to make a game that doesn't feel so painfully derivative of WW. I've been where you are and I grew out of it, so I'm empathetic, speaking from experience, and I strongly advice you to get way more experience with vampire fiction before making a game. Thanks for listening.

Also, and this is just my personal thoughts: the jargon in VtM is pretentious and arbitrary. They took random dictionary words and then assigned them completely different meanings, as opposed to using words that actually relate to the intended meaning (as other vampire fiction does). I wouldn't recommend you ever use it or try to emulate it. My advice is to use simple English, such as turn or vampirize, superpowers, "the Family," and so on. If you must use pretentious made-up nonsense, then use something that actually sounds as least as clever as J.K. Rowling's jargon. For example, referring to turning someone into a vampire as a "baptism" (this goes back to Stoker) or referring to superpowers as "dark gifts" (this goes back to Anne Rice).

Quote from: Mishihari on March 30, 2022, 07:51:13 PM
In my opinion those terms are all used in quite a bit of vampire fiction in addition to being in the dictionary, so they should be fair game.

I'm not convinced. Can you give me examples of where they're used outside of White Wolf's games?

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 30, 2022, 09:05:15 PM
Embrace is probably okay, though "turn" is what I've seen most commonly in general media. The one y

The huge thing you're going to want to avoid in terms of IP is the notion of Cain and Generations. Those are hugely specific to VtM.

Yeah, no other vampire fiction uses "embrace" or "generation". That's unique to WW.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 30, 2022, 09:05:15 PM
Now if it applied to something other than vampires you might be able to get away with using it; say it applied to all supernaturals collectively because they all share some type of affinity... but as a vampire only term no way would I risk it... particularly when it's so easy to just use the Storyteller's Vault publishing for 3rd party Vampire material and use basically all their IP and mechanics. Unless you're married to unique mechanics, you'd probably do just as well to rework it as a AU setting and tap into the already extant VtM player base and marketing/distribution system.

That's not gonna work either. The WW fans worship canon as an actual religion, so making an AU where everything works differently but uses the same jargon isn't gonna get any attention. WW already tried that with VtR before giving up, then again with V5 which tore the fandom in half again after all the previous edition wars. It's not worth it to make products for this dumpster fire fandom.

Quote from: Wrath of God on March 31, 2022, 09:04:55 AM
I agree with Chris. Kindred is very risky. Other things less so, but may be if you use them all.
As always I support using foreign terms to do it.

For instance if your vampires like oWoD generally had Mesopotamian origin - go full bonkers and use Akkadian or at least Arabic terms for various vampire-specific things. They are after all - old, conservative beasts mostly.

Why stop there? You could make up a fictional vampire language. Here's an example: https://vampiresrevealed.wordpress.com/vampire-lingo/

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 01:07:26 PM
You're making a heartbreaker? Word of advice: you're really late to the party.

Yes and no. It can be considered a heartbreaker by the style of play I'm trying to go for: urban politics, resisting the beast inside, city battle in top of roofs, investigation with clue and contact gathering, etc.
However the mechanics are considerable different but I'm using an engine that I think facilitates what I'm trying to go for pretty well, while maintaining the classic VtM feel. It also provides the ability for the GM to change the theme of the campaign without feeling like the system is fighting that style of play.

As for the late to the party part, I don't really agree. With the current iteration of the game leaving a bad taste in most players mouths I think that a good project treated with care, passion and with high presentation, organization and evocative art could be just in the right time.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 01:07:26 PM
Also, and this is just my personal thoughts: the jargon in VtM is pretentious and arbitrary.

I also agree with this, I'm going for a more campy, pulp and unapologetic vibe. More like Near Dark (my personal fav vampire movie) and less like Interview with a Vampire.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 02:16:28 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 01:07:26 PM
You're making a heartbreaker? Word of advice: you're really late to the party.

Yes and no. It can be considered a heartbreaker by the style of play I'm trying to go for: urban politics, resisting the beast inside, city battle in top of roofs, investigation with clue and contact gathering, etc.
However the mechanics are considerable different but I'm using an engine that I think facilitates what I'm trying to go for pretty well, while maintaining the classic VtM feel. It also provides the GM to change the theme of the campaign without feeling like the system is fighting that style of play.

As for the late to the party part, I don't really agree. With the current iteration of the game leaving a bad taste in most players mouths I think that a good project treated with care, passion and with high presentation, organization and evocative art could be just in the right time.

I see. Even so, there are already a number of different games that tried to emulate or compete with that in the past three decades. Nightlife (which actually predates WoD), Everlasting, WitchCraft, Urban Shadows, The Blood Hack, Feed, Blood Dark Thirst, By Night We Thirst, Vampire: The Requiem, etc. What sets your game apart from all of those and makes it a more attractive option? What experience do you have with game design and vampire fiction in general?

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 02:16:28 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 01:07:26 PM
Also, and this is just my personal thoughts: the jargon in VtM is pretentious and arbitrary.

I also agree with this, I'm going for a more campy, pulp and unapologetic vibe. More like Near Dark (my personal fav vampire movie) and less like Interview with a Vampire.

Nice. Why did you want to use VtM-specific jargon then?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 02:34:50 PM
Nice. Why did you want to use VtM-specific jargon then?

Because it's clearly a heartbreaker.

I'll second the idea of drawing from vampire literature instead of trying to file the serial numbers off even parts of another game. And not just because fair use means nothing if you can't afford to defend yourself when you're sued, or that the judge is going to look at broader similarities not just a couple words. But because derivative works of derivative works tend to feel thin and shallow.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 02:34:50 PM
What sets your game apart from all of those and makes it a more attractive option? What experience do you have with game design and vampire fiction in general?

Game design wise apart from being known as the GM that always runs every game with houserules, this is my first dipping into the rpg design scene waters. This is why I choose an OGL system to use as a foundation that I think allows me to achieve my vision without being bogged down or fall into newbie designer pitfalls.
I'm an avid reader but my tastes lean more toward classics, epics, theology, philosophy and mysticism books, in a sense I'm not the guy that read all the books about vampires but I'm probably the guy that read most books that an actual vampire would.
I think that what sets my game apart in comparison to the market, would be the classless and sandboxed style of play, GTA is also a big inspiration for this game. While most games give you a setting to play in I intend to give an open world and tools. Another thing is that I want to produce a game with high presentation value, something that evokes passion just from looking at it, not trying to throw shade at other games but most of them are just powered by the apocalypse or flavor of the month osr game with vampire themes and a really bad presentation. The ones that don't have a bad presentation, probably have enterprise bullcrap and current year sensibilities that hinder and stifle creativity. 
I plan to release a version of the rules for free without art and fluff, so people can be judge of the product without committing their hard earn money.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 02:34:50 PM
Nice. Why did you want to use VtM-specific jargon then?

I will be honest and say that I wanted to use them to increase visibility mostly.

QuoteI already have some latin terms for the schools of magic (disciplines), but I'll try to use terms that make linguistic sense in the context of the setting, since I'm going for a Phoenician/Greek mythology origin story.

Then thankfully both languages are known, and if you lack Phoenician term just use Hebrew one, as they are kin languages.

QuoteWhy stop there? You could make up a fictional vampire language. Here's an example: https://vampiresrevealed.wordpress.com/vampire-lingo/

Dunno, it sound like random words meaning to sound vaguely Semetic, so assuming Vampires have human origin I can just as well root them in human cultures. Parasites they are, no civilisation.

QuoteI'm an avid reader but my tastes lean more toward classics, epics, theology, philosophy and mysticism books, in a sense I'm not the guy that read all the books about vampires but I'm probably the guy that read most books that an actual vampire would.

And with such background you prefer to make game about vampiric GTA, rather than vampiric philosophers. Well that's some waste of potential

Quote from: Pat on March 31, 2022, 03:20:39 PM
I'll second the idea of drawing from vampire literature instead of trying to file the serial numbers off even parts of another game. And not just because fair use means nothing if you can't afford to defend yourself when you're sued, or that the judge is going to look at broader similarities not just a couple words. But because derivative works of derivative works tend to feel thin and shallow.

Exactly. Vampire: Undeath suffered hugely from being a nearly 1:1 ripoff (see the review I linked for details). Everlasting was written by a WW freelancer, but it was different enough that it didn't feel like a ripoff. The only thing it had in common with VtX was the idea of multiple vampire bloodlines, but the mythology was completely different and drew more inspiration from Dracula movies (i.e. bloodlines founders were guilty of atrocities and were thus damned by some higher power, vampires can turn their victims into sycophantic thralls with an addictive bite, vampires can create half-vampire or living vampire servants who exist midway between human and undead vampire) as well as Anne Rice stories (e.g. more powerful vampires can share their blood with weaker vampires to make them more powerful) and some wholly original ideas (e.g. weaker vampires can become emotionally addicted to the blood of stronger vampires and become infatuated with the donor, but this steadily weakens the donor and the effects vanishes once the weaker vampire gains equivalent power). WitchCraft has its vampires feed on emotions rather than blood and they can arise spontaneously (although most are raised by another vampire).

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 03:33:49 PMI'm not the guy that read all the books about vampires but I'm probably the guy that read most books that an actual vampire would.

If you're writing a game about playing vampires, then it would be hugely useful to read/watch a lot of vampire fiction for inspiration (I use Taliesin and Maven as my go-to sources for reviews). There are tons of interesting ideas that I got from vampire fiction: vampires placing marks (magical or mundane) on their familiars so other vampires know not to touch them, vampires sharing/transferring memories through blood exchange, different kinds of vampires having different methods of being destroyed, vampires feeding on youth or emotions or whatever, and countless other ideas.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 03:33:49 PM
Another thing is that I want to produce a game with high presentation value, something that evokes passion just from looking at it, not trying to throw shade at other games but most of them are just powered by the apocalypse or flavor of the month osr game with vampire themes and a really bad presentation. The ones that don't have a bad presentation, probably have enterprise bullcrap and current year sensibilities that hinder and stifle creativity.

Did you read them for comparison, though? If all you've read is VtM, then that's going to stifle your creativity. Nightlife, Everlasting and WitchCraft are from the 90s and all have significantly different takes on vampires. I find them to be vital inspirations for my own work, along with vampire fiction in general.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 03:33:49 PMWhile most games give you a setting to play in I intend to give an open world and tools.

That sounds exactly like Feed. What separates your game from that one?

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 03:33:49 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 02:34:50 PM
Nice. Why did you want to use VtM-specific jargon then?

I will be honest and say that I wanted to use them to increase visibility mostly.

I don't think that's a good reason. I think that's just going to confuse people.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 03:33:49 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 02:34:50 PM
Nice. Why did you want to use VtM-specific jargon then?

I will be honest and say that I wanted to use them to increase visibility mostly.

I'd recommend against that. If you're familiar with a lot of the source material that vampires would have read, then why not go for something unique? While it would help to read some vampire fiction so you know what's out there, something unique is more worth doing than a making a pallid copy.

Quote from: Pat on March 31, 2022, 07:49:16 PM

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 03:33:49 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 02:34:50 PM
Nice. Why did you want to use VtM-specific jargon then?

I will be honest and say that I wanted to use them to increase visibility mostly.

I'd recommend against that. If you're familiar with a lot of the source material that vampires would have read, then why not go for something unique? While it would help to read some vampire fiction so you know what's out there, something unique is more worth doing than a making a pallid copy.

Yeah. The way I'd do it is to just use the common used jargon from movies, shows, and books. This isn't standardized at all, so I think it would be interesting if there were multiple words for the same concept.

The biter/bitten bond alone has at least a dozen ways I've seen used. Vampire dad/vampire son, master/slave/servant, master/bride/groom, sire/dam/child, maker/child, sire/scion, maker/makee, mentor/mentee, creator/creation, yetsern/haeyled (from the conlang I linked earlier), parent/child, blood parent/blood child, alpha/beta... there's no wrong way to label it.

After the responses I got I'll definitely drop the WW terms to minimize legal implications.

Quote from: Wrath of God on March 31, 2022, 06:53:29 PM
And with such background you prefer to make game about vampiric GTA, rather than vampiric philosophers. Well that's some waste of potential

While I understand and somewhat appreciate the heavy topics that vampirism implies with nuance like, lust and desire, loss of humanity, STDs, eternity and oblivion, I've always been more drawn to them by a less serious and often forgotten optic, unadulterated reckless fun of youth. My plan is to save the more heavy and serious themes to be expanded in adventures where there's more space to flesh out creative writing and touching more deep and interesting concepts while keeping the base core rules of the game with a more fun and laid-back attitude.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 07:23:35 PM
If you're writing a game about playing vampires, then it would be hugely useful to read/watch a lot of vampire fiction for inspiration (I use Taliesin and Maven as my go-to sources for reviews). There are tons of interesting ideas that I got from vampire fiction: vampires placing marks (magical or mundane) on their familiars so other vampires know not to touch them, vampires sharing/transferring memories through blood exchange, different kinds of vampires having different methods of being destroyed, vampires feeding on youth or emotions or whatever, and countless other ideas.

While I've not read a lot of vampire fiction (I did read the classics), I think there isn't a single vampire movie that I haven't watched, yes... even twilight . Let the Right One In is one of my all time top 10 movies. The main theme I'm going for is that being a vampire is tough and while they are eternal creatures the irony is that most of them after being turned do end up having a lower lifespan than a normal human, so generation doesn't translate to power but years since turning do.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 07:23:35 PM
Did you read them for comparison, though? If all you've read is VtM, then that's going to stifle your creativity. Nightlife, Everlasting and WitchCraft are from the 90s and all have significantly different takes on vampires. I find them to be vital inspirations for my own work, along with vampire fiction in general.

I'll definitely check them out, ty for the recs. As for Feed I think the main difference is that my game will be more structured and rpg like and less storygame like. The vague understanding I could muster from reading a review, it seems that Feed is a toolbox focusing heavily on strain creation in character creation with storygame focus. Mine will be more focused on the past life career that the vampire had before turning. The tools in my game will be more for the GM, not so much for the players. Also Feed looks like it uses a lot of dice, I will only use D6s (no pools tho).