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Hello, I'm new here so I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to post a question like this.

So I'm currently on the process (soon™) of releasing my first rpg ;D. And I have a legal question about using some terms of another IP, that seem in my layperson view of the law fair use.
The setting of the game I'm developing is one of vampires and urban politics akin to VtM. Would the use of words like 'kindred', 'embrace', 'disciplines', terms that are defined in dictionaries, possible of legal repercussion? Currently the name of the project is Lost Kindred and those 3 words are really the only ones that are in VtM that I'm using.
I wouldn't mind changing the 'embrace' and 'discipline' terms but I really would want to use the word kindred.

Ty in advance.

First, IANAL.  I have a lot of experience in IP, but it's on the patent side of things.  In my opinion those terms are all used in quite a bit of vampire fiction in addition to being in the dictionary, so they should be fair game.  The one thing you need to watch out for is trademarks.  If someone has trademarked a term you want to use with respect to use in an RPG you might want to think up another word.

Personally, I'd avoid Kindred in relation to vampires as it is VERY WoD specific; literally no other vampire setting uses that term.

Personally I'd use Line or Bloodline for any sort of vampic lineage as that is pretty intuitive to vampirism. Similarly, Sire is fine, and Embrace is probably okay, though "turn" is what I've seen most commonly in general media. The one y

The huge thing you're going to want to avoid in terms of IP is the notion of Cain and Generations. Those are hugely specific to VtM.

I know you want to use Kindred, but it's so exclusive to WoD vampires (to the point it was the title for the TV show based on the property) that I doubt you'd be able to use it without Paradox's lawyers smacking you for it as soon as they learned of it.

Now if it applied to something other than vampires you might be able to get away with using it; say it applied to all supernaturals collectively because they all share some type of affinity... but as a vampire only term no way would I risk it... particularly when it's so easy to just use the Storyteller's Vault publishing for 3rd party Vampire material and use basically all their IP and mechanics. Unless you're married to unique mechanics, you'd probably do just as well to rework it as a AU setting and tap into the already extant VtM player base and marketing/distribution system.

I agree with Chris. Kindred is very risky. Other things less so, but may be if you use them all.
As always I support using foreign terms to do it.

For instance if your vampires like oWoD generally had Mesopotamian origin - go full bonkers and use Akkadian or at least Arabic terms for various vampire-specific things. They are after all - old, conservative beasts mostly.

Thanks for the inputs. Also put the question in rpg stackexchange and they gave me the same advice. Going to play it safe and not use any of the words.

Quote from: Wrath of God on March 31, 2022, 09:04:55 AM
As always I support using foreign terms to do it.

I already have some latin terms for the schools of magic (disciplines), but I'll try to use terms that make linguistic sense in the context of the setting, since I'm going for a Phoenician/Greek mythology origin story.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 30, 2022, 07:28:49 PM
Hello, I'm new here so I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to post a question like this.

So I'm currently on the process (soon™) of releasing my first rpg ;D. And I have a legal question about using some terms of another IP, that seem in my layperson view of the law fair use.
The setting of the game I'm developing is one of vampires and urban politics akin to VtM. Would the use of words like 'kindred', 'embrace', 'disciplines', terms that are defined in dictionaries, possible of legal repercussion? Currently the name of the project is Lost Kindred and those 3 words are really the only ones that are in VtM that I'm using.
I wouldn't mind changing the 'embrace' and 'discipline' terms but I really would want to use the word kindred.

Ty in advance.

You're making a heartbreaker? Word of advice: you're really late to the party.

https://writeups.letsyouandhimfight.com/halloween-jack/the-everlasting-book-of-the-unliving/
https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/15/15765.phtml
https://web.archive.org/web/20071010183007/http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue7/howtowriteagame1.html

I suggest you read a wider variety of vampire fiction and then use what you learn to make a game that doesn't feel so painfully derivative of WW. I've been where you are and I grew out of it, so I'm empathetic, speaking from experience, and I strongly advice you to get way more experience with vampire fiction before making a game. Thanks for listening.

Also, and this is just my personal thoughts: the jargon in VtM is pretentious and arbitrary. They took random dictionary words and then assigned them completely different meanings, as opposed to using words that actually relate to the intended meaning (as other vampire fiction does). I wouldn't recommend you ever use it or try to emulate it. My advice is to use simple English, such as turn or vampirize, superpowers, "the Family," and so on. If you must use pretentious made-up nonsense, then use something that actually sounds as least as clever as J.K. Rowling's jargon. For example, referring to turning someone into a vampire as a "baptism" (this goes back to Stoker) or referring to superpowers as "dark gifts" (this goes back to Anne Rice).

Quote from: Mishihari on March 30, 2022, 07:51:13 PM
In my opinion those terms are all used in quite a bit of vampire fiction in addition to being in the dictionary, so they should be fair game.

I'm not convinced. Can you give me examples of where they're used outside of White Wolf's games?

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 30, 2022, 09:05:15 PM
Embrace is probably okay, though "turn" is what I've seen most commonly in general media. The one y

The huge thing you're going to want to avoid in terms of IP is the notion of Cain and Generations. Those are hugely specific to VtM.

Yeah, no other vampire fiction uses "embrace" or "generation". That's unique to WW.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 30, 2022, 09:05:15 PM
Now if it applied to something other than vampires you might be able to get away with using it; say it applied to all supernaturals collectively because they all share some type of affinity... but as a vampire only term no way would I risk it... particularly when it's so easy to just use the Storyteller's Vault publishing for 3rd party Vampire material and use basically all their IP and mechanics. Unless you're married to unique mechanics, you'd probably do just as well to rework it as a AU setting and tap into the already extant VtM player base and marketing/distribution system.

That's not gonna work either. The WW fans worship canon as an actual religion, so making an AU where everything works differently but uses the same jargon isn't gonna get any attention. WW already tried that with VtR before giving up, then again with V5 which tore the fandom in half again after all the previous edition wars. It's not worth it to make products for this dumpster fire fandom.

Quote from: Wrath of God on March 31, 2022, 09:04:55 AM
I agree with Chris. Kindred is very risky. Other things less so, but may be if you use them all.
As always I support using foreign terms to do it.

For instance if your vampires like oWoD generally had Mesopotamian origin - go full bonkers and use Akkadian or at least Arabic terms for various vampire-specific things. They are after all - old, conservative beasts mostly.

Why stop there? You could make up a fictional vampire language. Here's an example: https://vampiresrevealed.wordpress.com/vampire-lingo/

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 01:07:26 PM
You're making a heartbreaker? Word of advice: you're really late to the party.

Yes and no. It can be considered a heartbreaker by the style of play I'm trying to go for: urban politics, resisting the beast inside, city battle in top of roofs, investigation with clue and contact gathering, etc.
However the mechanics are considerable different but I'm using an engine that I think facilitates what I'm trying to go for pretty well, while maintaining the classic VtM feel. It also provides the ability for the GM to change the theme of the campaign without feeling like the system is fighting that style of play.

As for the late to the party part, I don't really agree. With the current iteration of the game leaving a bad taste in most players mouths I think that a good project treated with care, passion and with high presentation, organization and evocative art could be just in the right time.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 01:07:26 PM
Also, and this is just my personal thoughts: the jargon in VtM is pretentious and arbitrary.

I also agree with this, I'm going for a more campy, pulp and unapologetic vibe. More like Near Dark (my personal fav vampire movie) and less like Interview with a Vampire.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 02:16:28 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 01:07:26 PM
You're making a heartbreaker? Word of advice: you're really late to the party.

Yes and no. It can be considered a heartbreaker by the style of play I'm trying to go for: urban politics, resisting the beast inside, city battle in top of roofs, investigation with clue and contact gathering, etc.
However the mechanics are considerable different but I'm using an engine that I think facilitates what I'm trying to go for pretty well, while maintaining the classic VtM feel. It also provides the GM to change the theme of the campaign without feeling like the system is fighting that style of play.

As for the late to the party part, I don't really agree. With the current iteration of the game leaving a bad taste in most players mouths I think that a good project treated with care, passion and with high presentation, organization and evocative art could be just in the right time.

I see. Even so, there are already a number of different games that tried to emulate or compete with that in the past three decades. Nightlife (which actually predates WoD), Everlasting, WitchCraft, Urban Shadows, The Blood Hack, Feed, Blood Dark Thirst, By Night We Thirst, Vampire: The Requiem, etc. What sets your game apart from all of those and makes it a more attractive option? What experience do you have with game design and vampire fiction in general?

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 02:16:28 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 01:07:26 PM
Also, and this is just my personal thoughts: the jargon in VtM is pretentious and arbitrary.

I also agree with this, I'm going for a more campy, pulp and unapologetic vibe. More like Near Dark (my personal fav vampire movie) and less like Interview with a Vampire.

Nice. Why did you want to use VtM-specific jargon then?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 02:34:50 PM
Nice. Why did you want to use VtM-specific jargon then?

Because it's clearly a heartbreaker.

I'll second the idea of drawing from vampire literature instead of trying to file the serial numbers off even parts of another game. And not just because fair use means nothing if you can't afford to defend yourself when you're sued, or that the judge is going to look at broader similarities not just a couple words. But because derivative works of derivative works tend to feel thin and shallow.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 02:34:50 PM
What sets your game apart from all of those and makes it a more attractive option? What experience do you have with game design and vampire fiction in general?

Game design wise apart from being known as the GM that always runs every game with houserules, this is my first dipping into the rpg design scene waters. This is why I choose an OGL system to use as a foundation that I think allows me to achieve my vision without being bogged down or fall into newbie designer pitfalls.
I'm an avid reader but my tastes lean more toward classics, epics, theology, philosophy and mysticism books, in a sense I'm not the guy that read all the books about vampires but I'm probably the guy that read most books that an actual vampire would.
I think that what sets my game apart in comparison to the market, would be the classless and sandboxed style of play, GTA is also a big inspiration for this game. While most games give you a setting to play in I intend to give an open world and tools. Another thing is that I want to produce a game with high presentation value, something that evokes passion just from looking at it, not trying to throw shade at other games but most of them are just powered by the apocalypse or flavor of the month osr game with vampire themes and a really bad presentation. The ones that don't have a bad presentation, probably have enterprise bullcrap and current year sensibilities that hinder and stifle creativity. 
I plan to release a version of the rules for free without art and fluff, so people can be judge of the product without committing their hard earn money.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 02:34:50 PM
Nice. Why did you want to use VtM-specific jargon then?

I will be honest and say that I wanted to use them to increase visibility mostly.

QuoteI already have some latin terms for the schools of magic (disciplines), but I'll try to use terms that make linguistic sense in the context of the setting, since I'm going for a Phoenician/Greek mythology origin story.

Then thankfully both languages are known, and if you lack Phoenician term just use Hebrew one, as they are kin languages.

QuoteWhy stop there? You could make up a fictional vampire language. Here's an example: https://vampiresrevealed.wordpress.com/vampire-lingo/

Dunno, it sound like random words meaning to sound vaguely Semetic, so assuming Vampires have human origin I can just as well root them in human cultures. Parasites they are, no civilisation.

QuoteI'm an avid reader but my tastes lean more toward classics, epics, theology, philosophy and mysticism books, in a sense I'm not the guy that read all the books about vampires but I'm probably the guy that read most books that an actual vampire would.

And with such background you prefer to make game about vampiric GTA, rather than vampiric philosophers. Well that's some waste of potential :P

Quote from: Pat on March 31, 2022, 03:20:39 PM
I'll second the idea of drawing from vampire literature instead of trying to file the serial numbers off even parts of another game. And not just because fair use means nothing if you can't afford to defend yourself when you're sued, or that the judge is going to look at broader similarities not just a couple words. But because derivative works of derivative works tend to feel thin and shallow.

Exactly. Vampire: Undeath suffered hugely from being a nearly 1:1 ripoff (see the review I linked for details). Everlasting was written by a WW freelancer, but it was different enough that it didn't feel like a ripoff. The only thing it had in common with VtX was the idea of multiple vampire bloodlines, but the mythology was completely different and drew more inspiration from Dracula movies (i.e. bloodlines founders were guilty of atrocities and were thus damned by some higher power, vampires can turn their victims into sycophantic thralls with an addictive bite, vampires can create half-vampire or living vampire servants who exist midway between human and undead vampire) as well as Anne Rice stories (e.g. more powerful vampires can share their blood with weaker vampires to make them more powerful) and some wholly original ideas (e.g. weaker vampires can become emotionally addicted to the blood of stronger vampires and become infatuated with the donor, but this steadily weakens the donor and the effects vanishes once the weaker vampire gains equivalent power). WitchCraft has its vampires feed on emotions rather than blood and they can arise spontaneously (although most are raised by another vampire).

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 03:33:49 PMI'm not the guy that read all the books about vampires but I'm probably the guy that read most books that an actual vampire would.

If you're writing a game about playing vampires, then it would be hugely useful to read/watch a lot of vampire fiction for inspiration (I use Taliesin and Maven as my go-to sources for reviews). There are tons of interesting ideas that I got from vampire fiction: vampires placing marks (magical or mundane) on their familiars so other vampires know not to touch them, vampires sharing/transferring memories through blood exchange, different kinds of vampires having different methods of being destroyed, vampires feeding on youth or emotions or whatever, and countless other ideas.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 03:33:49 PM
Another thing is that I want to produce a game with high presentation value, something that evokes passion just from looking at it, not trying to throw shade at other games but most of them are just powered by the apocalypse or flavor of the month osr game with vampire themes and a really bad presentation. The ones that don't have a bad presentation, probably have enterprise bullcrap and current year sensibilities that hinder and stifle creativity.

Did you read them for comparison, though? If all you've read is VtM, then that's going to stifle your creativity. Nightlife, Everlasting and WitchCraft are from the 90s and all have significantly different takes on vampires. I find them to be vital inspirations for my own work, along with vampire fiction in general.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 03:33:49 PMWhile most games give you a setting to play in I intend to give an open world and tools.

That sounds exactly like Feed (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/124387/Feed). What separates your game from that one?

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 03:33:49 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 02:34:50 PM
Nice. Why did you want to use VtM-specific jargon then?

I will be honest and say that I wanted to use them to increase visibility mostly.

I don't think that's a good reason. I think that's just going to confuse people.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 03:33:49 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 02:34:50 PM
Nice. Why did you want to use VtM-specific jargon then?

I will be honest and say that I wanted to use them to increase visibility mostly.

I'd recommend against that. If you're familiar with a lot of the source material that vampires would have read, then why not go for something unique? While it would help to read some vampire fiction so you know what's out there, something unique is more worth doing than a making a pallid copy.

Quote from: Pat on March 31, 2022, 07:49:16 PM

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 03:33:49 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 02:34:50 PM
Nice. Why did you want to use VtM-specific jargon then?

I will be honest and say that I wanted to use them to increase visibility mostly.

I'd recommend against that. If you're familiar with a lot of the source material that vampires would have read, then why not go for something unique? While it would help to read some vampire fiction so you know what's out there, something unique is more worth doing than a making a pallid copy.

Yeah. The way I'd do it is to just use the common used jargon from movies, shows, and books. This isn't standardized at all, so I think it would be interesting if there were multiple words for the same concept.

The biter/bitten bond alone has at least a dozen ways I've seen used. Vampire dad/vampire son, master/slave/servant, master/bride/groom, sire/dam/child, maker/child, sire/scion, maker/makee, mentor/mentee, creator/creation, yetsern/haeyled (from the conlang I linked earlier), parent/child, blood parent/blood child, alpha/beta... there's no wrong way to label it.

After the responses I got I'll definitely drop the WW terms to minimize legal implications.

Quote from: Wrath of God on March 31, 2022, 06:53:29 PM
And with such background you prefer to make game about vampiric GTA, rather than vampiric philosophers. Well that's some waste of potential :P

While I understand and somewhat appreciate the heavy topics that vampirism implies with nuance like, lust and desire, loss of humanity, STDs, eternity and oblivion, I've always been more drawn to them by a less serious and often forgotten optic, unadulterated reckless fun of youth. My plan is to save the more heavy and serious themes to be expanded in adventures where there's more space to flesh out creative writing and touching more deep and interesting concepts while keeping the base core rules of the game with a more fun and laid-back attitude.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 07:23:35 PM
If you're writing a game about playing vampires, then it would be hugely useful to read/watch a lot of vampire fiction for inspiration (I use Taliesin and Maven as my go-to sources for reviews). There are tons of interesting ideas that I got from vampire fiction: vampires placing marks (magical or mundane) on their familiars so other vampires know not to touch them, vampires sharing/transferring memories through blood exchange, different kinds of vampires having different methods of being destroyed, vampires feeding on youth or emotions or whatever, and countless other ideas.

While I've not read a lot of vampire fiction (I did read the classics), I think there isn't a single vampire movie that I haven't watched, yes... even twilight :-[. Let the Right One In is one of my all time top 10 movies. The main theme I'm going for is that being a vampire is tough and while they are eternal creatures the irony is that most of them after being turned do end up having a lower lifespan than a normal human, so generation doesn't translate to power but years since turning do.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on March 31, 2022, 07:23:35 PM
Did you read them for comparison, though? If all you've read is VtM, then that's going to stifle your creativity. Nightlife, Everlasting and WitchCraft are from the 90s and all have significantly different takes on vampires. I find them to be vital inspirations for my own work, along with vampire fiction in general.

I'll definitely check them out, ty for the recs. As for Feed I think the main difference is that my game will be more structured and rpg like and less storygame like. The vague understanding I could muster from reading a review, it seems that Feed is a toolbox focusing heavily on strain creation in character creation with storygame focus. Mine will be more focused on the past life career that the vampire had before turning. The tools in my game will be more for the GM, not so much for the players. Also Feed looks like it uses a lot of dice, I will only use D6s (no pools tho).

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 08:29:18 PM
While I've not read a lot of vampire fiction (I did read the classics), I think there isn't a single vampire movie that I haven't watched, yes... even twilight :-[. Let the Right One In is one of my all time top 10 movies.

Taliesin's blog lists hundreds(?) of vampires movies and tv show episodes. Most of them aren't good, but I'm pretty sure there are good ones you're missing. I know I am.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 08:29:18 PM
The main theme I'm going for is that being a vampire is tough and while they are eternal creatures the irony is that most of them after being turned do end up having a lower lifespan than a normal human, so generation doesn't translate to power but years since turning do.

So you're using a "blood-potency" mechanic then? Like Everlasting, Requiem and V5? Or a level mechanic like Vampire: Undeath?

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 08:29:18 PM
I'll definitely check them out, ty for the recs.

Glad to help. I consider those required reading for anyone trying to write their own vampire-themed rpgs. Whenever you're writing anything, it always helps to read the classics (and cult classics) of the genre.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 08:29:18 PMAs for Feed I think the main difference is that my game will be more structured and rpg like and less storygame like. The vague understanding I could muster from reading a review, it seems that Feed is a toolbox focusing heavily on strain creation in character creation with storygame focus. Mine will be more focused on the past life career that the vampire had before turning. The tools in my game will be more for the GM, not so much for the players.

The game is free, so you can read the whole thing rather than just a review. You can say it is storygamey compared to traditional systems like d20, BRP, or GURPS, but I don't think it hits too many of the criteria for a stereotypical storygame. (I'm using this article (https://heterogenoustasks.wordpress.com/2016/01/12/what-is-a-storygame/) as a reference point, since I'm not familiar with storygames.) Namely, I never got the impression that it was preoccupied with dissociative mechanics or play. Players aren't rewarded for behaving contrary to their PC's desires. Which is a relief for me because I'm not a fan of storygames. Both angsty addiction parables and b-movie splatterpunk are offered as sample settings, and the games rules don't assign moral judgment to the degeneration mechanic. I would say that, mechanically, it is superior at supporting "personal horror" compared to the many idiosyncrasies of ST system.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 08:29:18 PMAlso Feed looks like it uses a lot of dice, I will only use D6s (no pools tho).

Yes and no. Feed uses a dice pool task resolution mechanic with multiple types of dice but character traits are capped at 3 dice so it avoids the excessive dice rolling that scourges some other systems. The reason for the different dice is to represent flaws and otherwise non-advantageous traits. The rules don't have bonus/penalty bloat like other systems do, so I feel it evens out. I've considered replacing the task resolution with a one roll mechanic, but I haven't been motivated.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 01, 2022, 01:46:10 PM
So you're using a "blood-potency" mechanic then? Like Everlasting, Requiem and V5? Or a level mechanic like Vampire: Undeath?

It would be more akin to the "blood-potency" mechanic. There's no levels in the game, you gain XP after each session and you decide where you want invest those points, i.e., increasing an attribute or a skill or learning a new one.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 01, 2022, 01:46:10 PM
I'm not a fan of storygames. Both angsty addiction parables and b-movie splatterpunk are offered as sample settings, and the games rules don't assign moral judgment to the degeneration mechanic. I would say that, mechanically, it is superior at supporting "personal horror" compared to the many idiosyncrasies of ST system.

I'm not a fan of them either, I even think their existence just comes from an error made in the earlier days of the hobby that still persist in a lot of games today, which is the use of Charisma as an attribute. Most storygames also suffer from a error that novice writers tend to commit, which is having characters moving inside a plot instead of the plot coming forth because of characters actions.
One of the tools I'm spending a lot of time to craft is a NPC creation method so when PCs do something the GM would know exactly how that NPC would respond and therefore create the next situation effortlessly without having to rely on a pre written plot.

QuoteMost storygames also suffer from a error that novice writers tend to commit, which is having characters moving inside a plot instead of the plot coming forth because of characters actions.

Only not...? That's like quite opposed of philosophy behind modern storygame-RPGs. They usually are very pro-PC agenda, to the point of giving explicit powers over GM in specific situations, and basically forbading GM any planning, plotting and so on. They are also genre specific - which is somehow straightjacket and demands all players want to keep genre.

Character moving inside plot is characteristic of trad style that was born from all those simulationist skill-based games. Let's say Call of Cthulhu - this is game that usually assumes players are external force to go into plot and solve it, sure they can break all things Tarantino style, but generally they will be reactionary to mystery shown, not self-made heroes of D&D like fiction.
Like let's say WoD - by design it's game I'd call simulationist, mechanics means to simulate vampire or werewolf in fictional world. However proposed gameplay, style of adventures, and so on - was terribly railroady, GM was literally called Narrator or Storyteller and so on.

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 02, 2022, 08:01:11 PM
Only not...? That's like quite opposed of philosophy behind modern storygame-RPGs. They usually are very pro-PC agenda, to the point of giving explicit powers over GM in specific situations, and basically forbading GM any planning, plotting and so on.

How is it any different if the players are following a story written by the GM or them? IMO a good storygame should let the story blossom from actual play, not from PC or GM fiat. With good NPC tools the GM doesn't even need to left some things to chance because he knows exactly how a NPC is going to react, and is that reaction that will move the story, not randomness or gm/pcs goals.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 30, 2022, 07:28:49 PM
Hello, I'm new here so I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to post a question like this.

So I'm currently on the process (soon™) of releasing my first rpg ;D. And I have a legal question about using some terms of another IP, that seem in my layperson view of the law fair use.
The setting of the game I'm developing is one of vampires and urban politics akin to VtM. Would the use of words like 'kindred', 'embrace', 'disciplines', terms that are defined in dictionaries, possible of legal repercussion? Currently the name of the project is Lost Kindred and those 3 words are really the only ones that are in VtM that I'm using.
I wouldn't mind changing the 'embrace' and 'discipline' terms but I really would want to use the word kindred.

Ty in advance.

BGG has a thread on this sort of stuff.
The advice is allways "Hire an IP lawyer".
Kindred is tied to VtM. Embrace, less so, and Disciple not at all.

If you used those words its going to make people think you are just ripping off that game. Come up with new words or use older more common words.

Turned instead of Embraced, Spawn instead of Kindred, Disciple not sure on as its not connected to vampires that I know of? Also helps that these words are more evocative and easier to grasp without a lexicon.

QuoteHow is it any different if the players are following a story written by the GM or them? IMO a good storygame should let the story blossom from actual play, not from PC or GM fiat. With good NPC tools the GM doesn't even need to left some things to chance because he knows exactly how a NPC is going to react, and is that reaction that will move the story, not randomness or gm/pcs goals.

It's not written because you know dice results mess thing up, and there's assumption usually there is no some string of events meant to happen, merely well genre as I said.
Like Blades in the Dark when it's assumed GM do not prepare any heists on spot, and it's best if players just invent idea of heist and go from there. But then because each roll is meant to have narrative consequence - they cannot be certain things will go as planned (they won't.) Meanwhile trad style was usually played on classic systems but with assumption of GM plotting some mystery and players then messing with it - as sort of external reactionary agents. In proper play there was lot to mess about - but it was common in adventures of this era to be tightly scripted even with tricks for GM how to force players on track. Generaly SG RPG wants to avoid it.

Now of course there is differences between RPGs of Storygame movement and Storygames proper that are usually one-shots with mechanics utterly devoided from PCs - like dunno Fiasco.
For such one shot - sure specific NPC tools should work. For game defined mostly by genre not so much.

Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2022, 09:07:51 PM

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 30, 2022, 07:28:49 PM
Hello, I'm new here so I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to post a question like this.

So I'm currently on the process (soon™) of releasing my first rpg ;D. And I have a legal question about using some terms of another IP, that seem in my layperson view of the law fair use.
The setting of the game I'm developing is one of vampires and urban politics akin to VtM. Would the use of words like 'kindred', 'embrace', 'disciplines', terms that are defined in dictionaries, possible of legal repercussion? Currently the name of the project is Lost Kindred and those 3 words are really the only ones that are in VtM that I'm using.
I wouldn't mind changing the 'embrace' and 'discipline' terms but I really would want to use the word kindred.

Ty in advance.

BGG has a thread on this sort of stuff.
The advice is allways "Hire an IP lawyer".
Kindred is tied to VtM. Embrace, less so, and Disciple not at all.

If you used those words its going to make people think you are just ripping off that game. Come up with new words or use older more common words.

Turned instead of Embraced, Spawn instead of Kindred, Disciple not sure on as its not connected to vampires that I know of? Also helps that these words are more evocative and easier to grasp without a lexicon.

I'm also in favor of keeping a lexicon to an absolute minimum. There's a bunch of ways you could refer to vampirization: vampirize, turn, blood (as a verb), make, create, bring over, sire/dam, raise, damn, curse, baptize, join the dark side/night side/night shift, etc. You don't need to limit yourself to one either.

As for superpowers... superpowers? Magic? I don't see the need for new jargon here, they're superpowers. "Dark gifts", "dark arts," "dark powers" etc might work but sounds like goth poetry or (more charitably) a sermon against satanism.

As for a word to refer to vampires that isn't vampire... firstly I have to ask why this is even a thing? Anyway, you could devise all sorts of things: the Family, the bloody mafia, methuselahs (Trinity Blood does this one), darkspawn, nightbreed, children of the night, creatures of shadow, the noble dead, the hungry dead, demons, longtooths, fangbangers, "our kind," midianites, etc. I prefer to call them vampires because everybody does.

I'd argue that powers of supernatural beings are rarely called superpowers - this is term for comic book metahumans.
For vampires it's simply vampiric powers.

Anyway, what's the selling points for the game? Any previews or advertising blurbs ready yet?

Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2022, 09:07:51 PM

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 30, 2022, 07:28:49 PM
Hello, I'm new here so I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to post a question like this.

So I'm currently on the process (soon™) of releasing my first rpg ;D. And I have a legal question about using some terms of another IP, that seem in my layperson view of the law fair use.
The setting of the game I'm developing is one of vampires and urban politics akin to VtM. Would the use of words like 'kindred', 'embrace', 'disciplines', terms that are defined in dictionaries, possible of legal repercussion? Currently the name of the project is Lost Kindred and those 3 words are really the only ones that are in VtM that I'm using.
I wouldn't mind changing the 'embrace' and 'discipline' terms but I really would want to use the word kindred.

Ty in advance.

BGG has a thread on this sort of stuff.
The advice is allways "Hire an IP lawyer".
Kindred is tied to VtM. Embrace, less so, and Disciple not at all.

If you used those words its going to make people think you are just ripping off that game. Come up with new words or use older more common words.

Turned instead of Embraced, Spawn instead of Kindred, Disciple not sure on as its not connected to vampires that I know of? Also helps that these words are more evocative and easier to grasp without a lexicon.

Good points all.  My IP attorney bills at $400 an hour and would probably charge me fifteen minutes to answer that question.  Or he might just answer it verbally for free because it's not worth his time to bill for such a small amount and we have an established relationship.  The money is well worth the peace of mind if you have any budget for the project, though finding a good IP attorney can be a bit of a chore.

The point about using such words making your work look derivative is definitely worth considering.

For the actual legality, I'm pretty sure that one cannot copyright single words.  You can trademark a single word for a specific application, and you can check if a word is trademarked at the uspto web site.  If it's not there you're legal, at least for now.  I dunno if they could trademark a word they use after you start using it - that would be a good question for a lawyer.

And lastly, anyone can sue anyone else about anything.  Or in other words you can get sued even if there is no legal justification, and if you don't have the money to defend then you'll either need to fold or find a contingency lawyer and hope you can win a countersuit.  I don't know if this is done much in the RPG industry, but if so it's probably not worth the trouble for a hobby project.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 04, 2022, 03:42:05 AM
For the actual legality, I'm pretty sure that one cannot copyright single words.  You can trademark a single word for a specific application, and you can check if a word is trademarked at the uspto web site.  If it's not there you're legal, at least for now.  I dunno if they could trademark a word they use after you start using it - that would be a good question for a lawyer.

And lastly, anyone can sue anyone else about anything.  Or in other words you can get sued even if there is no legal justification, and if you don't have the money to defend then you'll either need to fold or find a contingency lawyer and hope you can win a countersuit.  I don't know if this is done much in the RPG industry, but if so it's probably not worth the trouble for a hobby project.

You do not need a lawyer to tell you it is ok at a glance. You need one to do the research and THEN tell you it is ok or not.

You'd be surprised at what people have trademarked and copyrighted. Games Workshop has sued an author for using the word Space Marine for example. Lucas has sued lots of people over Droid.  A few years ago some jackass designer was threatening other game designers for using the word Frame to describe a mecha. And so on ad nausium.

What more often happens is someone trademarks some words connected to their work. Or copyrights the specific usage. Example. Contrary to popular belief. WOTC did not copyright or TM Tap. What their claim covers is a series of actions and the word Tap I believe.

UndeadMonk has already decided not to copy WW's pretentious emo goth jargon. It's all good now. I for one am glad. I hate that pretentious emo goth shit and I'm sick of hearing it whenever I want to read about or discuss the Bloodlines video game.

Quote from: Omega on April 04, 2022, 06:05:32 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on April 04, 2022, 03:42:05 AM
For the actual legality, I'm pretty sure that one cannot copyright single words.  You can trademark a single word for a specific application, and you can check if a word is trademarked at the uspto web site.  If it's not there you're legal, at least for now.  I dunno if they could trademark a word they use after you start using it - that would be a good question for a lawyer.

And lastly, anyone can sue anyone else about anything.  Or in other words you can get sued even if there is no legal justification, and if you don't have the money to defend then you'll either need to fold or find a contingency lawyer and hope you can win a countersuit.  I don't know if this is done much in the RPG industry, but if so it's probably not worth the trouble for a hobby project.

You do not need a lawyer to tell you it is ok at a glance. You need one to do the research and THEN tell you it is ok or not.

You'd be surprised at what people have trademarked and copyrighted. Games Workshop has sued an author for using the word Space Marine for example. Lucas has sued lots of people over Droid.  A few years ago some jackass designer was threatening other game designers for using the word Frame to describe a mecha. And so on ad nausium.

What more often happens is someone trademarks some words connected to their work. Or copyrights the specific usage. Example. Contrary to popular belief. WOTC did not copyright or TM Tap. What their claim covers is a series of actions and the word Tap I believe.

Very interesting on the rpg history stuff.

The "tap" thing was a patent.  I'm familiar with that as it relates to my actual work (patents, not taps). 

Just out of curiosity I looked up "kindred" on trademark search.  About 400 entries, which would take me less than an hour to research.  I suppose that's the other thing.  My IP attorney taught me how to figure out most of the research I needed to do on my own.  Then I'd contact him for anything I wasn't sure about.  Again, it's important to find a good IP attorney who's willing to do stuff like that.  Once you know the rules, trademarks look much easier than patents.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 30, 2022, 07:28:49 PM
Hello, I'm new here so I apologize in advance if this is the wrong place to post a question like this.

So I'm currently on the process (soon™) of releasing my first rpg ;D. And I have a legal question about using some terms of another IP, that seem in my layperson view of the law fair use.

Sounds like you need a lawyer.

Quote from: UndeadMonk on March 31, 2022, 11:12:56 AM
I'm going for a Phoenician/Greek mythology origin story.

I have some more advice on this: namely, don't do this. What I mean is, don't have a central origin story for all the vampires. Try something different to set yourself apart. For example, maybe when people commit sufficient atrocities then they are damned by a higher power and become the founders of their own vampiric bloodlines. Or maybe someone who has suffered so much in life makes a pact with the dark powers with their dying breath and returns as a founder. This allows you to have new bloodlines pop up throughout history without needing to clumsily tie them into an existing bloodline (although you can still do that too, this wouldn't preclude that).

Here actually I think certain common origin is better and I like WOD for that.
Have other kinds of vampiric beings sure, let vampirism spread and evolve, but I simply don't like when there's 20 different super beings all called vampires, and treated as part of one group just because they all feed on mankind.

Now of course the same kind of vampire being some more global phenomen - can be fine, but personally I like idea of single ancestor curse.

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 12, 2022, 03:06:38 PM
Here actually I think certain common origin is better and I like WOD for that.
Have other kinds of vampiric beings sure, let vampirism spread and evolve, but I simply don't like when there's 20 different super beings all called vampires, and treated as part of one group just because they all feed on mankind.

Now of course the same kind of vampire being some more global phenomen - can be fine, but personally I like idea of single ancestor curse.

You're entitled to your tastes like I am to mine. How about we compromise and let GMs decide? We're not enslaved to some 30 year old emo goth canon

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 12, 2022, 03:06:38 PM
Here actually I think certain common origin is better and I like WOD for that.
Have other kinds of vampiric beings sure, let vampirism spread and evolve, but I simply don't like when there's 20 different super beings all called vampires, and treated as part of one group just because they all feed on mankind.

Now of course the same kind of vampire being some more global phenomen - can be fine, but personally I like idea of single ancestor curse.

Thing is, various cultures all have their own ideas of what a vampire is. Vampire is as good a catchall term as any. Leech is a close second.

For example if you tell someone that Bathory was vampire-like in her actions people will usually pick up that its somehow blood related and then all you have to do is explain her method and it becomes clearer.
Same for the Jiangshi and its variants in asia. And it shares similarities with non-hollywood european vampire legends too where it is more the life force that is being drained.
The Lamia and Stirg from ancient Greek legends and I believe the Vetala from India are more close to modern-style examples of blood drinking creatures.

Much akin to if you say something is like a "Kelpie" people will usually parse out that it is some sort of horse-like predatory water monster.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 04, 2022, 03:42:05 AM
Good points all.  My IP attorney bills at $400 an hour and would probably charge me fifteen minutes to answer that question.  Or he might just answer it verbally for free because it's not worth his time to bill for such a small amount and we have an established relationship.  The money is well worth the peace of mind if you have any budget for the project, though finding a good IP attorney can be a bit of a chore.

The point about using such words making your work look derivative is definitely worth considering.

For the actual legality, I'm pretty sure that one cannot copyright single words.  You can trademark a single word for a specific application, and you can check if a word is trademarked at the uspto web site.  If it's not there you're legal, at least for now.  I dunno if they could trademark a word they use after you start using it - that would be a good question for a lawyer.

And lastly, anyone can sue anyone else about anything.  Or in other words you can get sued even if there is no legal justification, and if you don't have the money to defend then you'll either need to fold or find a contingency lawyer and hope you can win a countersuit.  I don't know if this is done much in the RPG industry, but if so it's probably not worth the trouble for a hobby project.

I teach IP Law, and IMO this is all good advice.

QuoteYou're entitled to your tastes like I am to mine. How about we compromise and let GMs decide? We're not enslaved to some 30 year old emo goth canon

Sure. (TBH I'm not against breaking WOD cannon, I merely prefer less to more in basic terms, connecting thing with underlying unity over overblown diversity.)

QuoteThing is, various cultures all have their own ideas of what a vampire is. Vampire is as good a catchall term as any. Leech is a close second.

Sure and most of those cultures are wrong, because even Earth is not big enough for 7000 of different specifically localised vampires, 9000 of animal-based shapeshifter and 300 005 occult traditions. Only few should be real and working, rest are just misconceptions.

"Master" might be up for grabs soon.  8)

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 13, 2022, 03:22:13 AM
Sure and most of those cultures are wrong, because even Earth is not big enough for 7000 of different specifically localised vampires, 9000 of animal-based shapeshifter and 300 005 occult traditions. Only few should be real and working, rest are just misconceptions.

If the magic system operates on some variation of belief creating reality then all of those should be able to coexist. (See Discworld for examples.) In any case, those numbers are only really a problem if you try to worldbuild a single canonical shared universe where every product has to account for everything ever written previously. I prefer to write more modular and cherry pick what I'm including in a given adventure.

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 13, 2022, 03:22:13 AM
TBH I'm not against breaking WOD cannon, I merely prefer less to more in basic terms, connecting thing with underlying unity over overblown diversity.

When it comes to urban fantasy, I don't like limiting my options or forcing square pegs into round holes. It depends on what I'm writing at the time too. Sometimes I might prefer a single strain of vampirism with some substrains of minor differences, other times I might prefer multiple strains with more dramatic differences.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTalesWhen it comes to urban fantasy, I don't like limiting my options or forcing square pegs into round holes. It depends on what I'm writing at the time too. Sometimes I might prefer a single strain of vampirism with some substrains of minor differences, other times I might prefer multiple strains with more dramatic differences.

I mean we're talking about gaming here, so whatever you put in the writing is your choice.
But I think just like D&D settings are kinda flavourless due to overabundance of everything, so are urban-fantasy or superhero settings where there is just too much things.

And while indeed Mages of oWOD have power to create probably 10 000 different vampire strains, they are hold in check by Paradox (which for some weird reason do not attack other supes despite being colectively disbelieved by most mortals ;) - alas you already noted that oWoD worldbuilding is somehow shoddy in this regard. But on the other hand I'm worldbuilder first, so while I appreciate some setting-neutral urban fantasy engine - that's just fine, I also kinda respect oWoDs trying to bring all those things together.

Quote from: Wrath of God on April 13, 2022, 12:06:40 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTalesWhen it comes to urban fantasy, I don't like limiting my options or forcing square pegs into round holes. It depends on what I'm writing at the time too. Sometimes I might prefer a single strain of vampirism with some substrains of minor differences, other times I might prefer multiple strains with more dramatic differences.

I mean we're talking about gaming here, so whatever you put in the writing is your choice.
But I think just like D&D settings are kinda flavourless due to overabundance of everything, so are urban-fantasy or superhero settings where there is just too much things.

And while indeed Mages of oWOD have power to create probably 10 000 different vampire strains, they are hold in check by Paradox (which for some weird reason do not attack other supes despite being colectively disbelieved by most mortals ;) - alas you already noted that oWoD worldbuilding is somehow shoddy in this regard. But on the other hand I'm worldbuilder first, so while I appreciate some setting-neutral urban fantasy engine - that's just fine, I also kinda respect oWoDs trying to bring all those things together.

Until Night Shift, there have not been any urban fantasy tabletop games that give you the option of multiple settings. Every urban fantasy game released has come welded to a single setting with no option for others. In the overwhelming majority of cases there's really no reason for this, as the rules are almost never geared to represent the themes of the setting in any meaningful way that cannot be adequately represented by any other rules system or vice versa.

Sure, Forgotten Realms and Golarion are flavorless due to being so kitchen sink, but not all D&D settings are like that. There's a bazillion of them, official and 3pp, so there's gems here and there. The upside is that you have a huge community to discuss a wide variety of concepts related to fantasy, including completely upending the standard D&Disms and sacred cows. Other genres aren't so lucky. I would really appreciate being able to discuss urban fantasy gaming without being slaved to Rein-Hagen's 30 year old emo goth stuff.

The thing about generic is that it generally doesn't sell as well; in part because a lot of people buy games with baked in settings so they don't have to do the work of designing their own.

Why pay X for a set of rules where you have to design a setting still when you can pay X for a set of rules with a setting included and possibly even with mechanics that integrate that setting into the play experience?

Put another way, there's a reason Masquerade with its specific setting but clunky mechanics was well remembered enough to be able to rise from the grave while Requiem with its more solid mechanics and more build-your-own-mythology lingers like a shambling corpse barely known outside of its diehard fans.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 14, 2022, 02:13:06 PM
The thing about generic is that it generally doesn't sell as well; in part because a lot of people buy games with baked in settings so they don't have to do the work of designing their own.

Why pay X for a set of rules where you have to design a setting still when you can pay X for a set of rules with a setting included and possibly even with mechanics that integrate that setting into the play experience?

That wasn't my argument.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 14, 2022, 02:13:06 PM
Put another way, there's a reason Masquerade with its specific setting but clunky mechanics was well remembered enough to be able to rise from the grave while Requiem with its more solid mechanics and more build-your-own-mythology lingers like a shambling corpse barely known outside of its diehard fans.

"Rising from the grave" is an interesting way to describe that. I would call it a dumpster fire.

WoD being married to its bloated mess of lore is also its biggest weakness, because the fans completely lose their shit when the current rights holder decides to make changes they don't agree with. WoD has what are probably the most toxic edition wars in the entire extended tabletop community. At one point they sent the lead dev of Mage 3rd edition so many death threats that he was afraid to open his inbox for years. I'm surprised there hasn't been a deluge of retroclones like there has been for D&D and Warhammer.

The entire reason UndeadMonk was inspired to make his own retroclone was due to the recent V5 edition war.

Quote from: Mishihari on April 04, 2022, 03:42:05 AMMy IP attorney bills at $400 an hour and would probably charge me fifteen minutes to answer that question.

Mine bills $600 an hour, which makes billing in 10 minute increments really easy to calculate.

Gotta be grateful for small blessings.

Quote from: Omega on April 04, 2022, 06:05:32 AMExample. Contrary to popular belief. WOTC did not copyright or TM Tap. What their claim covers is a series of actions and the word Tap I believe.

"Tapping", that is, changing the physical position of a card in a specific way to indicate some effect has taken place, is a game mechanic and the only way to protect game mechanics is to patent them.

Which, I believe, Garfield Games did because WOTC was being sued by Kevin Siembeda at the time over The Primal Order, so they wanted to protect Magic by not exposing it to a potential judgement.