Questing Beast - The real problem with "Rulings Not Rules" in DnD

Bit of a clickbait title, but an interesting video about the approach, how to make it work in systems that weren't originally built for it, and some thoughts that are applicable regardless of system. I do like the observations about magic items that can facilitate this kind of play, though it isn't exactly ground breaking. I definitely see this approach in his own games, Knave2e is full of those kind of interesting utility spells. That's one of the things I like about it.

I think this is a good starting place for people that are starting to get into the OSR style, especially if they're used to the post 3e approach and having trouble getting into the old school.

"problems without solutions"

You mean like real life. Most modern GMs rely so much on published stuff, they cannot conceived of a problem that has a solution other than the one written down in a book somewhere. I have encountered this so many times in recent years I just decided it wasn't worth simply rolling dice against some skill and "solving" the problem, which is what they expected. Creativity wasn't even allowed unless you rolled...it's really dumb and infuriatingly boring. If you're engaging in a riddle game with Gollum, then obviously there's a correct answer to his questions, but you could always just stab the little bastard, too. Real RPGs make zero assumptions about what the PCs will do when presented with a problem; but this isn't strictly a modern issue, either. Once TSR published the first modules for D&D, it was all over and creativity went right out the window. Making shit up, the cornerstone of fantasy roleplaying, was replaced with buying published works and rules-lawyering.

So basically, this isn't OSR as much as it is originalism for RPGs.

Quote from: Brad on March 14, 2024, 03:09:07 PM
"problems without solutions"

You mean like real life. Most modern GMs rely so much on published stuff, they cannot conceived of a problem that has a solution other than the one written down in a book somewhere. I have encountered this so many times in recent years I just decided it wasn't worth simply rolling dice against some skill and "solving" the problem, which is what they expected. Creativity wasn't even allowed unless you rolled...it's really dumb and infuriatingly boring. If you're engaging in a riddle game with Gollum, then obviously there's a correct answer to his questions, but you could always just stab the little bastard, too. Real RPGs make zero assumptions about what the PCs will do when presented with a problem; but this isn't strictly a modern issue, either. Once TSR published the first modules for D&D, it was all over and creativity went right out the window. Making shit up, the cornerstone of fantasy roleplaying, was replaced with buying published works and rules-lawyering.

So basically, this isn't OSR as much as it is originalism for RPGs.

Indeed. 

I make a clever decision, GM likes it!  GM says I must roll for the dice's permission.  Oh shit, the dice said no!  Aw, GM and I have a big sad now...

Consulting to failure, a.k.a. consulting unnecessarily often, is just tempting the odds of fate. Sometimes good ideas need no added sauce. Imagination is bigger than permissions, no?

Quote from: Opaopajr on March 14, 2024, 03:38:25 PM
Indeed. 

I make a clever decision, GM likes it!  GM says I must roll for the dice's permission.  Oh shit, the dice said no!  Aw, GM and I have a big sad now...

Consulting to failure, a.k.a. consulting unnecessarily often, is just tempting the odds of fate. Sometimes good ideas need no added sauce. Imagination is bigger than permissions, no?

Quite so, something that Gillespie says a lot in the dragonslayer book, the players job is to, as much as possible, keep the die out of the hands of the DM. Every time the DM rolls the dice, there's a chance it goes bad for the PCs, better to come up with a plan such that no dice are needed. And the corollary to this is DMs that roll for things that really shouldn't need one. That's something that I'm really trying to get away from myself, since I started out playing PF, which had a lot of that "roll for everything" DNA

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on March 14, 2024, 04:48:03 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on March 14, 2024, 03:38:25 PM
Indeed. 

I make a clever decision, GM likes it!  GM says I must roll for the dice's permission.  Oh shit, the dice said no!  Aw, GM and I have a big sad now...

Consulting to failure, a.k.a. consulting unnecessarily often, is just tempting the odds of fate. Sometimes good ideas need no added sauce. Imagination is bigger than permissions, no?

Quite so, something that Gillespie says a lot in the dragonslayer book, the players job is to, as much as possible, keep the die out of the hands of the DM. Every time the DM rolls the dice, there's a chance it goes bad for the PCs, better to come up with a plan such that no dice are needed. And the corollary to this is DMs that roll for things that really shouldn't need one. That's something that I'm really trying to get away from myself, since I started out playing PF, which had a lot of that "roll for everything" DNA

At that point you are playing yourself, not your character

Quote from: JeremyR on March 14, 2024, 08:37:53 PM

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on March 14, 2024, 04:48:03 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on March 14, 2024, 03:38:25 PM
Indeed. 

I make a clever decision, GM likes it!  GM says I must roll for the dice's permission.  Oh shit, the dice said no!  Aw, GM and I have a big sad now...

Consulting to failure, a.k.a. consulting unnecessarily often, is just tempting the odds of fate. Sometimes good ideas need no added sauce. Imagination is bigger than permissions, no?

Quite so, something that Gillespie says a lot in the dragonslayer book, the players job is to, as much as possible, keep the die out of the hands of the DM. Every time the DM rolls the dice, there's a chance it goes bad for the PCs, better to come up with a plan such that no dice are needed. And the corollary to this is DMs that roll for things that really shouldn't need one. That's something that I'm really trying to get away from myself, since I started out playing PF, which had a lot of that "roll for everything" DNA

At that point you are playing yourself, not your character

Playing your character means trying to think using your character's mindset, not relegating everything to skill rolls and game mechanics.

Quote from: Brad on March 14, 2024, 03:09:07 PM
"problems without solutions"

You mean like real life. Most modern GMs rely so much on published stuff, they cannot conceived of a problem that has a solution other than the one written down in a book somewhere.

wotc wishes!

The reality is that near everyone at this point knows that wotc modules are a mess and that the writers are lazy and expect the players to do their job and create the parts the writers could not be dicked to actually write.

Quote from: Brad on March 14, 2024, 03:09:07 PM
If you're engaging in a riddle game with Gollum, then obviously there's a correct answer to his questions, but you could always just stab the little bastard, too.

This reminds me of the last interview I had. I really wanted to do some stabbing...

Quote from: Omega on March 14, 2024, 09:40:17 PM
wotc wishes!

The reality is that near everyone at this point knows that wotc modules are a mess and that the writers are lazy and expect the players to do their job and create the parts the writers could not be dicked to actually write.

Well you're not wrong, but it's telling that a lot of 5th edition players I know lament the fact WotC is garbage and act like they can't play D&D anymore because of it. "Make it up" is almost an impossible concept for them to grasp. Sad!

Quote from: Brad on March 15, 2024, 09:38:26 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 14, 2024, 09:40:17 PM
wotc wishes!

The reality is that near everyone at this point knows that wotc modules are a mess and that the writers are lazy and expect the players to do their job and create the parts the writers could not be dicked to actually write.

Well you're not wrong, but it's telling that a lot of 5th edition players I know lament the fact WotC is garbage and act like they can't play D&D anymore because of it. "Make it up" is almost an impossible concept for them to grasp. Sad!

Two sides of the same coin.  When the consumers of the module are able to fill in the gaps, the writer of the module can concentrate on putting out useful bit, not hand holding, fluff, filler, or even pure garbage.  (Note the writer "can" not necessarily the writer "will.")  When the consumers of the module are instead used to the hand holding, fluff, filler, and even pure garbage, it interferes with their ability to use their imagination, thus making them worse the next time.  The opposite is also true.

I believe what we have here, is the fabled negative feedback loop.

Quote from: JeremyR on March 14, 2024, 08:37:53 PM

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on March 14, 2024, 04:48:03 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on March 14, 2024, 03:38:25 PM
Indeed. 

I make a clever decision, GM likes it!  GM says I must roll for the dice's permission.  Oh shit, the dice said no!  Aw, GM and I have a big sad now...

Consulting to failure, a.k.a. consulting unnecessarily often, is just tempting the odds of fate. Sometimes good ideas need no added sauce. Imagination is bigger than permissions, no?

Quite so, something that Gillespie says a lot in the dragonslayer book, the players job is to, as much as possible, keep the die out of the hands of the DM. Every time the DM rolls the dice, there's a chance it goes bad for the PCs, better to come up with a plan such that no dice are needed. And the corollary to this is DMs that roll for things that really shouldn't need one. That's something that I'm really trying to get away from myself, since I started out playing PF, which had a lot of that "roll for everything" DNA

At that point you are playing yourself, not your character

As designed. Who is playing a game? Whose wits are being used to solve problems in that game? ( hint: it sure as hell isn't a character) Your character can't think, or reason without the player. The character is essentially some numbers and notes on a sheet of paper. It won't get offended if the player gets to solve problems in the game.

I've been "Rulings, not rules" for a long time.

People sometimes get confused to think you're just making it all up, which is not true.

Basically "rulings not rules" is used when if there is no rule or character class skill in the book, you make a ruling on the situation at hand.

But most importantly is you're fair and consistent afterwards with that ruling if and when it comes up again.

Quote from: Brad on March 15, 2024, 09:38:26 AM
Well you're not wrong, but it's telling that a lot of 5th edition players I know lament the fact WotC is garbage and act like they can't play D&D anymore because of it. "Make it up" is almost an impossible concept for them to grasp. Sad!

Part of that may be the fucked up dichotomy storygamers push that story and "rule of cool" are sooooo important. But god forbid the filthy DMs think for themselves. 6e will be pushing this if Perkins interview is any indicator.

You also have this weird disconnect of players demanding more rules and then bitching that there are so many rules.

In my experience, half the players who have only experienced "modern rpgs" balk when they encounter a GM who uses "rulings, not rules" and the other half are thrilled by the freedom.

And that's fine.

Of course, as a caveat, GMs must be conscious and vigilant to be FAIR (not "nice", but fair) when going for rulings, not rules.

Also, I have no problem with the PCs have a good idea and getting a bonus on die roll to see if their good idea actually works in the game world...and sometimes, the Dice Gawds will say NAY!

AKA, it's okay to have "good decisions" that have automatic success and sometimes those "good decisions" only nudge the odds in your favor.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 15, 2024, 10:15:01 AM
I believe what we have here, is the fabled negative feedback loop.

Ain't that the truth...when did people get so lazy? I remember spending hours writing up adventures when I was in school, just to have them dismantled in minutes during our lunchroom sessions. Whenever I finally came up with something the players couldn't overcome without insane amounts of effort, it was like I had beaten life.Modern RPG aesthetic just seems like an endless treadmill, the Southpark episode with guitar hero comes to mind...where's the fun in that? Leveling up is a reward for being badass, not the raison d'etre.