Quote from: J ArcaneSee, here's the thing, and this applies to all indie scenes, RPGs, music, whatever.

They don't really give a flying fuck about the "mainstream".  If any of those damn Forge games, or even the Forge itself, actually achieved "mainstream", and started selling at least as much as, say nWoD, or even D&D, they'd drop it like a stone.

Quote from: J ArcaneIt's all bullcrap.  And really, nothing new if you watch fandom phenomenon in other circles.

Like how Lord of the Rings fans dropped it like a stone when the movies were successful?  And how Star Trek fans withered away when the franchise went mainstream?  So, I'm not seeing it.  While there was certainly some set of LotR fans who disapproved of the films, overwhelmingly it seemed that they approved and supported them.  

Now, within music, I can think of a number of examples where fans dropped away from performers whom they saw as selling out -- but I think there was often a fair basis to think that they were selling out, and weren't just becoming popular by doing the same thing.  

As an alternate theory -- I think that a lot of people have unrealistic expectation that the kind of game they like is poised to be popular in the mainstream, and it's just some sort of coincidence that's keeping it down.  So the people who love Primetime Adventures are convinced that they just need better exposure, marketing, etc.  But you see the same thing by people convinced that if only gamers would do X, then D&D would become much more popular or whatever.

Quote from: jhkimAs an alternate theory -- I think that a lot of people have unrealistic expectation that the kind of game they like is poised to be popular in the mainstream, and it's just some sort of coincidence that's keeping it down [...] But you see the same thing by people convinced that if only gamers would do X, then D&D would become much more popular or whatever.

As I've said, I don't like D&D. But I would recommend it for any gamer who wanted to introduce new gamers into the hobby without a lot of trouble. By "a lot of trouble," I mean "explaining to them what the fuck you actually do in this game." If you wanted a dungeon crawl, you could say, "it's just like Diablo, but with a person called the "Game Master" describing things instead of having pictures and the software do it." If you wanted something with a bit more detailed plot, you could say, "it's just like World of Warcraft, only the world itself is smaller, and because we have just a few players instead of a million, we can do more detailed stuff." If you wanted still more detailed, you could say, "It's just like Lord of the Rings, only we decide what the characters do, instead of Tolkien or Jackson."

It'd be easy to explain what's done, what the aim of the thing is. It'd be a lot harder with Traveller, PTA, or whatever. Sure, some people will have seen this or that show you can relate it to, but the whole fantasy genre is quite simply more widely-known. Star Wars is probably even more widely-known, but there people will feel constrained by what they've seen in the movies. Whereas with the fantasy genre, what they know about it comes from so many different sources that their minds will be open.

So D&D, whether I'm personally fond of it or not, is a good tool for new gamers. The basic ideas can be grasped quickly, and the "zero to hero" advancement model means that it starts simple and becomes more complex; these are the things which fascinate people. It means they think about the game between sessions, which keeps them enthusiastic about it, and makes them come to the next session.

A good GM and players, good teachers, can make newbies interested in just about any kind of game, though. However, I have not found most gamers to be good teachers. So it'd be best to recommend the tool which is more generally useful, useful even if you're not that good a GM, player or teacher - D&D.

"If only gamers would do X..." If by that you mean to imply "invite non-gamers," well, I've got a couple of things to say to that.

The first is that I think that roleplaying will never ever become "mainstream" the way say football is. It's a niche hobby, and as I keep saying, most of the world is going to be bored by your little hobby, whatever it is.

The second is that I don't know that if you invite non-gamers, they'll come. Maybe all of them will say, "no." But I do know that if you don't invite them, then they won't come.

Against what the story-games crowd is saying, I say that you can't talk about people being willing to game with you or not if you haven't tried inviting them. It's like the unemployed guy who complains he can't get a job, but never applies for one, or the single guy who complains no girl will date him, but he never asks any out. If you don't ask, you can't complain they never say, "yes," nor can you speculate about what it'd take to make them say, "yes."

Will any say "yes"? I've no idea. I reckon a small number will. But none will say "yes" if you don't invite them.

You'd think that's common sense, but the fact that the "gaming is too geeky" threads keep going, while jhkim's "inviting them" thread flopped, shows that it's obscure to the story-games crowd.

QuoteLike how Lord of the Rings fans dropped it like a stone when the movies were successful?

No, like how Lord of the Rings fans suddenly dropped the books like a stone when the reprints made it a bestseller in the 60s.

They weren't part of the elite club anymore.  They couldn't sneer at the masses.  And they were pissed.

Oh, brother!

Quote from: RPGPunditright, like there are millions of common americans who .... [a]re just unbelievably desperate to get to play .... Connie Seleca from a Hallmark TV Movie.

Pffff.  Well, I am NOW.

Ooh.  Wait.  Kellie Martin?  Can I get stats for Kellie Martin?

What, no love for Meredith Baxter-Birney?

Quote from: JimBobOz

Recruiting for

my Dungeons & Dragons group

just like World of Warcraft
but with beer and friends

JimBob, next time you see this guy, wouldja please tell him I said he wins?  Thanks, mate.

Hm, after looking at the story-games thread again, I had a thought why RPGs are just never going to become the sort of thing you break out at a party--or at least the obstacle they'd have to overcome to achieve that status. It's this:

RPGs require focus and cooperation by all participants, or they suck for everyone. A participant who can't be bothered to try to understand what's going on, or who acts randomly, is highly disruptive. And RPGs lack an in-game method of "punishing" bad players in a socially-useful fashion.

Consider for example a game of Hearts. If one person fucks up, it's their loss, everyone else's gain. (Sure, one player may benefit more than the others, but the screwup is generally hurt at least as badly as everyone else.) If you play Hearts with your friends and you tire of losing, then you either put in more effort or you stop playing. But in the meantime, the others don't really mind beating you.

In an RPG (and I might add, especially in a "story-game" that gives players lots of responsibility & unstructured authority), it's easy for a player to do something dumb in the game that kills the fun for the whole group. Same with a player who's sort-of bored and just "going through the motions". Can you punish these players short of tossing them out? Sure, but all the methods I've seen proposed amount to this: voting on each other's creative talent. That's not a comfortable thing. The temptation is to give everyone a "Perfect 10", but that doesn't work, since it just means the screwups are going to keep messing the game up for everyone else.

To become "mainstream", RPGs need to find a way to accommodate players who don't cooperate (or don't know how to)--and I might add, it's not a solution to read players a bunch of pages of color text about "getting into the spirit of the game". Or they need to find a way to contain the damage from players who screw up, without engendering bad feelings and a sense of being judged.

Actual competitive games like cards or boardgames don't have these problems, and that's why they're far more suitable to pickup games and parties. Not due to geekiness. Learning curve and prep are certainly factors, but I think the one I'm highlighting here is at least as important, when it comes to looking at RPGs as potential casual/party entertainment.

Finally, I think this factor suggests one design element for quote-unquote "mainstream" play: the ability to absorb the absurd and humorous without "breaking" the continuity of the game is a big asset.

Quote from: Elliot WilenFinally, I think this factor suggests one design element for quote-unquote "mainstream" play: the ability to absorb the absurd and humorous without "breaking" the continuity of the game is a big asset.

I would have said that just about every roleplaying game on the market could do this. I'm not sure I can remember a single session of anything where some sort of humour didn't creep in.

Oh, sure it creeps in. I think in measured amounts though, from people who are already invested in the setting.

Frankly, I don't think many people operating in a casual or party atmosphere want to really give a damn about continuity, or any constraint that isn't clearly built into the rules.

Which could be one reason why LARPS do (reportedly, not speaking from experience) work as parties: the real-world physical "gameboard" is an effective constraint. Whereas in tabletop games I think continuity is mostly provided by consensus and/or centralized authority rather than rules.

Quote from: SpikeYou know what this list reminds me of?  Cheapass Games products I'd see on the shelves of the gaming stores in the late nineties (and a bit still today). You know the ones... came in little white envelopes and were completely self contained one shotters to play with a few buddies when you were bored.  Could be roleplaying, could just be a game like Clue without the board.

Actually the Cheapass Game that was like Clue had a board and was called "Kill Dr. Lucky", a bunch of the games did, the boards were just cardstock that came in several pieces. (there is a full color version out now that's a regular boxed boardgame)

To this day I wish I knew where my old original copy of "Before I Kill You Mr. Bond" was, I got more fun gameplay out of that $5 then almost any other $10 I'd dropped on cardgames before or since.  I'm not sure if I ever saw any RPG's from them, it was pretty much board or card games as far as I know, and the ones that I got to play were much more then one shots.

Quote from: cnath.rmActually the Cheapass Game that was like Clue had a board and was called "Kill Dr. Lucky", a bunch of the games did, the boards were just cardstock that came in several pieces. (there is a full color version out now that's a regular boxed boardgame)

To this day I wish I knew where my old original copy of "Before I Kill You Mr. Bond" was, I got more fun gameplay out of that $5 then almost any other $10 I'd dropped on cardgames before or since.  I'm not sure if I ever saw any RPG's from them, it was pretty much board or card games as far as I know, and the ones that I got to play were much more then one shots.

Ah. I'd never actually bought them, but I still think the list of games provided earlier reads like a list of the Cheapass Games I saw but never played.

There ya have it, folks. The Forge is making new versions of Cheapass Games, now with Pretension provided free of cost!

Quote from: SpikeAh. I'd never actually bought them, but I still think the list of games provided earlier reads like a list of the Cheapass Games I saw but never played.

There ya have it, folks. The Forge is making new versions of Cheapass Games, now with Pretension provided free of cost!

Except without the solid gameplay that had people asking me if I had the game in my bag and if we could play.  (I'm pretty sure the Forge games cost more too.)

Quote from: cnath.rm(I'm pretty sure the Forge games cost more too.)

Hey, all that Pretensiousness costs, you know?

Quote from: SpikeHey, all that Pretensiousness costs, you know?

Pretense.

Your statement ought to have been:

'Hey, all that pretense costs, you know?'

*Snif*

You uncultured boor, you.