There's no such thing as "eavesdropping" on public forums. If you want a private conversation, that's what PM, emails, and IM programs are for. If you put it where everyone can see it, you can't really complain when they see and comment on it, even if they comment on it on some other site, where those people don't or can't post.

For example, people on rpg.net are commenting on Cheetoism, and criticising me personally. But I don't say that they shouldn't post about me or what I've said simply because I'm banned from rpg.net and can't respond. Instead, I respond here, and ask people who do have access to the place to link them, so that if anyone does want to talk to me, they can. Just giving them the option. Likewise, you could pop on over to story-games, and point out the thread to them, then they can wander over and comment if they want to.

A public forum's discussion is like a book or magazine article - you draw quotes from it to illustrate what you're saying, to raise questions and so on. If the quotes are taken out of context, or what you're saying is nonsense, then if you've provided links, people can see for themselves.

RPGPundit's only failure here - setting aside the usual rantiness of his posts - was in not providing a link in his original post. But he tends to do that, he's not very good at listing his sources. He never just plain makes shit up, but he tends not to provide links so that people can have a look and judge for themselves. "I said it, it must be true!"

But the main thing is that we get to comment on the ideas they toss about in that forum, because they don't keep them there, those ideas spread around. You may say, "well, even if they are talking nonsense, and it spreads, so long as they're happy, what do you care?" And I'd respond that I'm not a moral relativist so I think nonsense is inherently bad.

Quote from: JimBobOzHe never just plain makes shit up, but he tends not to provide links so that people can have a look and judge for themselves. "I said it, it must be true!"

This I have to disagree with.  After reading many of the Pundit's posts prior to signing up he does tend to "make things up".

Example:   The thread where he states that the forge people are trying to rise and take over with their forge creations.  No proof, just rantings based on his hate of the forge.

That was "Off the Reservation" to say the least.

If you dont like the forge and dont want them discussed STOP BRINGING THEM UP!

- Blue Devil

Note: I disregard Forge threory and think its bunk, so I am not a pro-forge.  I just call a spade a spade.

Quote from: Blue DevilThis I have to disagree with.  After reading many of the Pundit's posts prior to signing up he does tend to "make things up".

Example:   The thread where he states that the forge people are trying to rise and take over with their forge creations.  No proof, just rantings based on his hate of the forge.

Sorry the whole desire to be 'mainstream', the fact that things which are not RPG's (as in have mechanics more like Once Upon a Time card game) get labeled "RPG's" by Forge-folk seems pretty much an attempt to do just that.


Never mind that the label "RPG" is only seemingly used because it has some important religio-idolatry connection, at least that's the closest I can figure out from posts on "Why X game must be an RPG?"--yet has no playing of roles, or no "game" aspects.

This may not be "VIVA LA REVOLUTION!" but it still smacks pretty close of trying to instigate themselves into places their ideas are not wanted.

The WORST part of it is, I could been a Pro-Forgie--I like some aspects of games that come from there (Some, limited and more so as time goes on)

However--many of the ideas I've seen elsewhere. I once had a total game collection--individual RPG corebooks numbering over 300, so I've been exposed to a LOT of ideas. It's not that the Forge is "evil" for using X idea, but for claiming credit for them that bugs me.

 Plus the Forge was supposed to be about helping game writers get quality games published--before its utter drop into ass-hattery and brain damage style commentary, I was there hat in hand trying to get help to get my works to published state. Not only are the articles limited in that respect (spending more time talking about theories, and none of practicalities), but pretty much if it wasn't Ron or Clinton approved you got absolutely no real feedback.


So while Pundit may take things over-the-top, they do have a basis in reality.

Quote from: Christmas ApeWhat I'm getting here is "If I bring over a Forge-related statement from my hungry prowling of Swine message boards, I want you all to leap up and start spitting on it with me. None of this rational 'You may be, intentionally or not, misinterpreting their words based on your rampant hatred of everything they stand for and it's possible they meant this other pretty evident thing' bullshit, just follow along with what I say."

No one has to spit on it who don't want to, they can ignore it to.
But what won't be happening is accepting it as legitimate theory.
I know there's many of you who would like that, but it'll NEVER happen here. And you're just going to have to live with that.

QuoteThat's...real special, chief, but somehow I don't think you've got enough groupthink to manage it.

No "groupthink" is needed. All that's needed is an executive decision (mine) to even the playing field. To officially reject GNS and Forge theory and not offer special protections to the fuckers who come on here to try to subvert the site with this poison.  After that, everyone who disagrees with the Forge has an even chance, which is all they need really because the Forge's theories are built on a house of cards that depends on everyone (voluntarily or forcibly) believing a set of lies for foundations.

QuoteI think the terms are useless for people who play RPGs, but for the people who communicate with each other on the Forge, they seem to serve the place of real words. If you're going to talk about them to any purpose other than "Ha ha! I personally disagree, making them empirically wrong! :pundit:"

We are not going to talk about them to any purpose other than that, no.
You might wish we would, but we are not.

QuoteI'm not for accepting the use of Forge terms, I'm for the abandoning of this stupid-ass petty "Look how wrong this quote from another site I have no business on is!" shit that makes a large portion of the potential user base turn away with a condescending smirk at having found another Anti-Forge board.

Yes, because clearly that's what most of the user base will give a fuck about. Joe Gamer's first thought when considering a board to join is "will they be against my beloved Forge?".

Get a clue.

RPGPundit

Quote from: JimBobOzCool thanks for that. One question, though: what's this bullshit about "quote from another site I have no business on"? Who has no business on which site, and why? Are we not to go to sites where people largely disagree with us? Does that mean we won't be seeing any more of Christmas Ape here on therpgsite?

Why yes, Jimbob didn't you know? That's the rules of their game; they feel they should be allowed to go onto RPG.net or ENworld and try to subvert those sites, or come on here and threadcrap all over us, but we're obviously just wicked trolls if we go to Storygames or the Forge and even check out what they are REALLY saying about RPGs.. Because, you know, its totally unfair of us to go point out to the world the stuff that the Forge Swine are saying when they think no one is going to be watching.
Then people would know what they REALLY think about mainstream gamers and games, and it would make it so much harder for them to be able to claim to really like regular gamers and really love D&D... that's just dirty pool on our part.

So to review: Them coming on here and crapping on every thread they can in the name of their religious cult's crusade? Perfectly good netiquette.
Us going to READ (not write in) the Forge or Storygames? Wicked evilness and utterly unsportsman of us.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditSo to review: Them coming on here and crapping on every thread they can in the name of their religious cult's crusade? Perfectly good netiquette.
Us going to READ (not write in) the Forge or Storygames? Wicked evilness and utterly unsportsman of us.

Dude, I wish you would do more than just read.  Why the hell aren't you posting over there?  You got stuff to say that you think anyone would give a flying fig about?  Post it!

Quote from: TonyLBDude, I wish you would do more than just read.  Why the hell aren't you posting over there?  You got stuff to say that you think anyone would give a flying fig about?  Post it!

He wouldn't last a second. Someone will take offense, and it will be all over.

Quote from: SilverlionSo while Pundit may take things over-the-top, they do have a basis in reality.

On this point we will have to agree to disagree.   And I have a feeling Pundit's behavior and his irrational conspiracy theories are why he is banned from most other message forums.

Yes, Pundit does have good points (No, he isnt a total loon, Nox has a lock on that) but he sullies up his good points with irrational conspiracy theories which makes people think of him as a loon and makes them ignore his good points AND his irrational points.

Quote from: Blue DevilOn this point we will have to agree to disagree.   And I have a feeling Pundit's behavior and his irrational conspiracy theories are why he is banned from most other message forums.
.

Ah bullshit, really 'most other'? Whose got the over-the-top fetish now?

I know of two--do you know of more?

Quote from: SilverlionAh bullshit, really 'most other'? Whose got the over-the-top fetish now?

I know of two--do you know of more?

Well, how many significant RPG forums are there out there?


And I don't mean stuff like "Chuck's Twilight 2000 Ressource Page/Geocities/something"

QuoteAnd I don't mean stuff like "Chuck's Twilight 2000 Ressource Page/Geocities/something"                                                              __________________

I like Chuck, don´t talk badly of him!

Quote from: jhkimAs an alternate theory -- I think that a lot of people have unrealistic expectation that the kind of game they like is poised to be popular in the mainstream, and it's just some sort of coincidence that's keeping it down.  So the people who love Primetime Adventures are convinced that they just need better exposure, marketing, etc.  But you see the same thing by people convinced that if only gamers would do X, then D&D would become much more popular or whatever.

I think this is "more correct" than the other theory -- but [editied for clairity: the StoryGames thread is also] garden-variety eliteism: we're not elf-playing-hit-point-counting-D&D-mouthbreathers. I think the idea that their games appeal to the mainstream is part of that ("We're in the category of non-geeky-roleplaying gamers... a category the rest of the world is... unaware of, but once we throw off the oppression of the D&D-players who are ruining our good name, we will emerge as the ice-cool-catz we really are...)

What gets me is the tortured logic necessary to explain why indie-game-x is actually *less* popular and successful than V:tM or D&D when it's clearly less-geeky/higher-quality/mo-mainstream, etc. You'd think that reasonably intelligent, reflective people would recognize logical gymnastics when they're doing them (or basic bullshit when someone else is), and question their own assumptions.

Cheers,
-E.

QuoteYou'd think that reasonably intelligent, reflective people would recognize logical gymnastics when they're doing them (or basic bullshit when someone else is), and question their own assumptions.

Deep intellectual dishonesty pretty much characterizes most of the movement.

It's kind of tragic, because the idea of getting together and making new games is great. Having new games is great*.


Having it turned into what amounts to a cultish supremacist political movement- sucks in a profound way. I can't even describe how much it sucks. It's the worst fucking thing. Let's just leave it at that.


* As it turns out, most of the games aren't actually that great, when you get down to it, because the majority of them are moralistic, nihilistic or both, in order to fit into the Forgie corporate template. But that doesn't mean something good couldn't happen. Firefly Games (Faery's Tale), PiGames (Iron Gauntlets), and Flying Mouse (in Harms Way) all show a lot of promise. There is hope, and it's publishers like these guys.

Quote from: -E.I think this is "more correct" than the other theory -- but [editied for clairity: the StoryGames thread is also] garden-variety eliteism: we're not elf-playing-hit-point-counting-D&D-mouthbreathers. I think the idea that their games appeal to the mainstream is part of that ("We're in the category of non-geeky-roleplaying gamers... a category the rest of the world is... unaware of, but once we throw off the oppression of the D&D-players who are ruining our good name, we will emerge as the ice-cool-catz we really are...)

What gets me is the tortured logic necessary to explain why indie-game-x is actually *less* popular and successful than V:tM or D&D when it's clearly less-geeky/higher-quality/mo-mainstream, etc. You'd think that reasonably intelligent, reflective people would recognize logical gymnastics when they're doing them (or basic bullshit when someone else is), and question their own assumptions.

Cheers,
-E.

I agree with every last word of this post.  It's exactly what I was getting at above when I compared it to LotR in the 60s, and to similar phenomenon in countless other "indie scenes".

D&D: 1974 – thirty years of product recognition; professional marketing. Almost a household word.

Vampire: 1991 – fifteen years of product recognition; targeted marketing. Not really known outside a couple of subcultures.

Most indie games: varying dates (eg MLwM 2003) – one to four years of product recognition; marketed through cons and forums. Highly obscure.


Gosh, I wonder why one game could possibly be more widely-known and popular than another. Is it gymnastics or arithmetic?