Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalFantasy isn't and hasn't been set up for Big Ideas since the 50's.

Hrmm, not exactly what I was looking for. I'll ask the question another way (and be closer to the thread topic methinks!) : What do you consider a "big idea" used in the 50's and prior?

Is this a case of, like in the Elder Gods thread, innocence lost? The "big ideas" that would fit in Fantasy don't seem so big to us anymore?

Quote from: blakkieHrmm, not exactly what I was looking for. I'll ask the question another way (and be closer to the thread topic methinks!) : What do you consider a "big idea" used in the 50's and prior?

  Actually, the best example of fantasy looking at a big idea that I can think of is a recent one.

  If you read Stross' Merchant Princes series you see what appears to be a broadly fantastical series about people hopping between alternate versions of Earth using magic.  But beneath that, you've got a series of books that talk about third world economics and the advantages to a flexible approach to copyright.

  There's also Justina Robson's Keeping It Real which has elves and demons as well as cyborgs but the book examines the concepts of identity and free will.

  The problem is that these kinds of books only just stray over the line from SF to fantasy.  They're arguably more Sf than fantasy anyway despite including magic.  Mainstream fantasy is all about elves and prophecies and shit like that.

At present, the population of the world at large is not trained or inclined to think in terms of Big Ideas, to deal in substanstive inquiry into the universe.  They are trained to think in small terms, to receive proferred wisdom from their authorities and to think that all things are cyclical- and, therefore, immune to human effort to change them.

Quote from: BalbinusNot sure why, designers love pulp games, fans don't seem to buy them much.

I can't speak for the others, but this has not been my experience with Hollow Earth Expedition. We sold out our first print run, which was generous, and I have a much larger second print coming in soon.

With that being said, I think the problem with pulp is that it's too broad a genre and it covers so much ground that it's nearly impossible to add any truly unique elements to it -- because it's all already there. As a designer, you're left with the choice of trying create a game that encompasses the whole genre or try and present a subset of the genre in your own way.

Both approaches are frought with peril. If you try to take on too much, the game will feel disjointed and lacking in any sort of idiom for players to grasp. You'll have a gumshoe hanging out on a zepplin with Tarzan. On the other hand, if you pick and choose a subset of pulp, chances are you won't present it the way any one person would prefer it. It'll be "close, but not quite right" for many people.

For HEX, I took a specific style of pulp (hollow earth and lost world literature) and tried my best to present that the way I see it. Fortunately, this has struck a chord with many people, but the single most common complaint I get from people is that it's lacking weird science and magic powers. To put it generally, fans of the lost world literature like the game, while fans of Doc Savage and the Shadow find it lacking in the cool powers they want to see in a pulp game.

It's a bit of a no-win situation, and sometimes I feel downright quixotic trying to solve the problem. I will be giving those other pulp fans the cool powers they're looking for (and hopefully seperate the worlds effectively so I don't have the gumshoe and the Tarzan problem). But, when I worry about this problem too much I always fall back on simply trying to make a game that I'd have fun playing and hope that it finds and audience. And, as a designer, I think that's all anyone can really hope for.

Jeff Combos
President
Exile Game Studio
//www.exilegames.com

I had a somewhat funny experience with HEX at GenCon. When I first heard of it, I rolled my eyes for exactly the reasons that Jeff gave for pulp's problems. Too many designers assume that you already like pulp, that a game that has elements of the genre is enough to get you to buy it.

When I read more about HEX, I had to check it out. The game does a good job of finding a few fun elements of the genre and making them the core of the game.

It's a little weird, but that approach worked for me. I'm not a pulp fan, but I am a fan of 1930s adventurers dodging dinosaurs in the unexplored reaches of the Hollow Earth. That sold me on the game.

Pulp alone isn't enough to generate interest. I don't think most gamers really know what pulp is, or are fans of it. It'd be like trying to convince someone who has never read any fantasy that D&D is cool because you get to play a dwarf. They have no idea what a dwarf is, or why that's cool. They need a hook other than, "It's fantasy", or "It's pulp", to get them excited.

I highly recommend HEX as a game to check out. It's good stuff.

Quote from: jcombos{Contains snippage, Mythusmage.}

For HEX, I took a specific style of pulp (hollow earth and lost world literature) and tried my best to present that the way I see it. Fortunately, this has struck a chord with many people, but the single most common complaint I get from people is that it's lacking weird science and magic powers. To put it generally, fans of the lost world literature like the game, while fans of Doc Savage and the Shadow find it lacking in the cool powers they want to see in a pulp game.

Jeff Combos
President
Exile Game Studio
//www.exilegames.com

Sounds to e like HEX is just ripe for expansion. HEX: G-Men and Gumshoes. or HEX: Lianas and Lion Kings.

Quote from: BalbinusREH though wasn't I think a racist, he was simply a product of his time in which the idea that there were differences in personality types between the races was commonplace.  I don't think as far as I know he thought any of the other races were inferior, though he did think as best I can tell that they were different, but at a superficial level more than anything else.

I disagree.  I don't toss around the label "racist" lightly and I'm willing to grant some leniency for the prevailing views of "his time", but I think you should consider this essay:

http://www.rehupa.com/romeo_southern.htm

Quote from: John MorrowI disagree.  I don't toss around the label "racist" lightly and I'm willing to grant some leniency for the prevailing views of "his time", but I think you should consider this essay:

http://www.rehupa.com/romeo_southern.htm

I've read this article, and others, as well as much of Howard's work. I have to say he does have a decidedly racist slant in many of his stories, as well as some of the letters he sent others. He seems conflicted, though, because he will suddenly toss in something that seems surprisingly open-minded given some of his other writings. One can only hope and speculate that his attitudes would have changed had he lived longer, but who knows?

It's not unprecedented; take a look at the great film director John Ford's apparent attitude toward Native Americans in his films: a screaming faceless horde killed wholesale in "Stagecoach" (1939); much more humanized and sympathetic in the "Cavalry Trilogy" (Fort Apache, Rio Grande, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, early 1950s); a direct confronting of racist attitudes in "The Searchers" (1956) with the main character showing an interesting evolution in viewpoint; and finally "Cheyenne Autumn" (1964) where Ford is highly sympathetic to the Native Americans' plight. Whether Howard would have shown such an evolution in thought and attitude is impossible to know.

Yeah... the Solomon Kane story where he goes to Africa is undeniably racist.  He describes them as sub-human.  Howard probably wasn't as racist as Lovecraft (who was a proper phobic) but it's undeniable that he was a racist.

Wat sold my wife and me on HEX?

• Jeff's enthusiasm
• The very, very nice production values
• The gent at the booth who was wearing a pith helmet
• The lean, mean rules
• The mounted dino head

We were close to sold on our first pass, but I hadda get some Traveller stuff first.

Quote from: jrientsMy own take is that pulp is less than successful because it is underwhelming in the kewl powers department.  The guns are generally not big enough and the super powers seem lame compared to wizards and caped ubermenches.

i've found that true with half of the guys i gamed with. they power trip and usually won't play anything lower than 10th to 13th level in 3.5.

the other openminded half, however, just couldn't get into the 20's - 40's era. they just couldn't imagine it.
zip. nada. didn't spark with them at all.
they don't know jackshit about any pre-WW2 history (i blame our crap uninspiring high school history teachers for that one) or have any interest in that time. yet they love the pulpish movies that have come out in the last ten to fifteen years..
it's strange, they loved the Untouchables and the Shadow and Sky Captain and King Kong but just can't see themselves in those roles.
it's fucking frustrating. but i think that might be our own fault. by that i mean the the small percentage of gamers who would like to play or run one. we're just a small niche in a small hobby.

i do think they would do a modern pulp game.
the modern action genre.


edited for: some clarity

Quote from: jcombos...the single most common complaint I get from people is that it's lacking weird science and magic powers. To put it generally, fans of the lost world literature like the game, while fans of Doc Savage and the Shadow find it lacking in the cool powers they want to see in a pulp game.

It's a bit of a no-win situation, and sometimes I feel downright quixotic trying to solve the problem. I will be giving those other pulp fans the cool powers they're looking for (and hopefully seperate the worlds effectively so I don't have the gumshoe and the Tarzan problem). But, when I worry about this problem too much I always fall back on simply trying to make a game that I'd have fun playing and hope that it finds and audience. And, as a designer, I think that's all anyone can really hope for.

//www.exilegames.com

Well, I think it's a common complaint because the book contains references to weird tech and psychic powers, has an example character with the ability to detect psychic activity, makes the pursuit of ancient psychic tech a major part of the setting but contains no rules for psychic powers as apparently they are to be in a later supplement.

I think very highly of HEX, but the fact is the setting explicitly contains wierd science and psychic power elements which look pretty crucial to the game as written but which aren't in the core book.  I can't run it right now in part because you left those bits out.  It's not that people generally want psychic stuff in a pulp game, it's that psychic powers are important to the HEX setting as described but aren't in the book.

Quote from: John MorrowI disagree.  I don't toss around the label "racist" lightly and I'm willing to grant some leniency for the prevailing views of "his time", but I think you should consider this essay:

http://www.rehupa.com/romeo_southern.htm

Fair enough, thanks for the link, that does seem to show that he was.

That said, people's attitudes are often inconsistent.  The boxing stories generally are not racist, but interestingly after my post here on the topic I read one in which racial stereotypes are used of a Black boxer, the usual unpleasant African savage stuff.  The odd thing though is that the protagonist in that story is also a Black boxer, represented as a noble and honourable man that the reader is expected to sympathise with.

So in the same story we have a Black character who is portrayed in much the same way as any White hero in an REH story, it's pretty sympathetic, and a caricatured Black savage.  Then again, racists often make individual exceptions.

Anyway, this is a bit of a tangent, in answer to the original query about racism in the boxing stories it is present in one, albeit the same one as has a sympathetic Black protagonist, but generally does not arise in these particular tales.

My HEX post reads a bit harsher than I intended, I do think the psychic stuff should have been there, but it is a good game and the decision to focus on one flavour of pulp - the lost world stuff - IMO makes it far more playable than most pulp games.

Quote from: Balbinus...we have a Black character who is portrayed in much the same way as any White hero in an REH story, it's pretty sympathetic, and a caricatured Black savage.

Or, a hero who happens to be black, and a villain who happens to be black. Pulp morality was rather (no irony intended) black and white. And yes, Robert's white villains tended to be rather caricatured. Pulp has never been a good place to find rounded characterizations.