Mr A's blog entry for Feb 08, ironically enough, captures why I love the pulps and want to see more of that spirit.

It's in part because I find worldbuilding bloody dull, although I agree with his broader points on fandom too.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI've never played in a game that was all about Big Ideas or indepth characterisation.

But you want to?  As in an RPG that emphasized character development and was about converting "big ideas" of a character into actions?

Yeah, that's a weird coincidence as it was prompted by a now retreating shitstorm prompted by Sf doyen M. John Harrison saying that worldbuilding is for nerds.

Mr A, I have a copy of Whistle and I'll Come to You on DVD, do you want it?

I thought it trite that once again the novel twist is an implication that it may be psychological, the same novel twist I've seen from every slumming intellectual in the genre.  But you had it in your top ten (the other nine were good) so if you don't have a copy you're welcome to it.

Slightly off topic I know, but there you are.

Quote from: blakkieBut you want to?  As in an RPG that emphasized character development and was about converting "big ideas" of a character into actions?

  By Big Ideas I mean philosophical or scientific ideas that sustain a hard SF novel.  To whit, Watts' Blindsight is about how intelligence does not require consciousness.

  As for deep characterisation... it depends upon what you mean.

  On the one hand, there's the idea of a game being character driven.  The best example of this kind of set up is Deadwood or The Wire where the characters are the way they are and the plot is essentially them bouncing off each other with the occasional external influence stirrng things up.  I have and do play and run games that are like this.  In fact, I think it's the kind of game I most enjoy.

  On the other hand, there's the idea of a game being all about characterisation where you roleplay out the character's emotional state.  Frankly, if I wanted to do that kind of thing I would have taken up acting.  I like to think that I do devellop my characters' emotional states and thaqt I leave them a little different to the way I picked them up.  For example, I played a very worldly Viking who eventually came to accept the role of magic and superstition in the world, I've also played very valiant soldiers who eventually became more and more expedient as it was revealed to him quite how rotten the priesthood was.  Any more than that and it would be too much, I really don't want to wind up sobbing in a corner at the end of a game.

Quote from: BalbinusMr A, I have a copy of Whistle and I'll Come to You on DVD, do you want it?

  If you don't want it then I would be delighted to give it a home, thanks :-)

  I don't think you're being fair to it though, I don't think the twist is that it might be psychological, that's kind of a given in a lot of M.R. James' works, the twist is the nature of the psychological forces (essentiallly he finds a "bone" and "blows it" and then spends his nights haunted by the idea of having someone in his room with him).  Plus it has a fantastic performance in it.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIf you don't want it then I would be delighted to give it a home, thanks :-)

  I don't think you're being fair to it though, I don't think the twist is that it might be psychological, that's kind of a given in a lot of M.R. James' works, the twist is the nature of the psychological forces (essentiallly he finds a "bone" and "blows it" and then spends his nights haunted by the idea of having someone in his room with him).  Plus it has a fantastic performance in it.

I'll give you the performance, indeed it's well acted throughout.

I get the blowing bone bit, I just think it lacks the power of the original story which is intensely creepy.  But at least it's going to a good home.

Then again, I love MR James, I always find the screen versions disappointing, perhaps part of what I love is his writing - he is a great writer.

Quote from: BalbinusIt's in part because I find worldbuilding bloody dull, although I agree with his broader points on fandom too.

My favorite thing ever is Bruce Mcall's Zany Afternoons:-

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D03E4DB1438F934A15751C1A964948260

so I think fantasy and imagination can easily find a home in worldbuilding - I read a lot off books about ships and aeroplanes and whatnot, and find a lot of joy in what ammount to fantasy versions of those - an Osprey book for Battletech say.

So I see it as entirely worthy to try to produce something that is a Fantasy Rip Off of D.K. Browns epic works on British warships:-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Warrior-Dreadnought-Warship-Development-1860-1905/dp/1840675292

Quote from: BalbinusThen again, I love MR James, I always find the screen versions disappointing, perhaps part of what I love is his writing - he is a great writer.

  No, I'd agree with you that the screen adaptations of his work leave something to be desired.  A Warning to the Curious, for example, is absolutely horrendous.  It's a nice creepy story but the screen adaptation was just laughable.

  I think it does come down to the strength and the character of his writing.

  The TV version of Dickens' The Signalman is remarkably good though.  Have you seen that?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalNo, I'd agree with you that the screen adaptations of his work leave something to be desired.  A Warning to the Curious, for example, is absolutely horrendous.  It's a nice creepy story but the screen adaptation was just laughable.

  I think it does come down to the strength and the character of his writing.

  The TV version of Dickens' The Signalman is remarkably good though.  Have you seen that?

The one with Denholm Elliot?  If so, then yes and it is rather good.  Have you read Age of Kali by Dan Simmons, I thought that rather original as modern horror fiction goes, although I think modern horror is an utterly moribund genre.

I haven't read much recent horror to be honest.

Though I did get a copy of Joe Hill's Heart-Shaped Box, which is out on Monday I think.  Joe Hill is Stephen King's son and he won a load of awards for his short story collection that came out in 05 I think.  Heart-shaped box is a great and wonderfully creepy book in the great tradition of MR James.

Last time I looked, Hill's short story collection was going for 50 quid a time on Amazon, so that should be some indication that he's stirring things up.

You're right though, horror's functionally dead as a literary genre.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalOn the one hand, there's the idea of a game being character driven.  The best example of this kind of set up is Deadwood or The Wire where the characters are the way they are and the plot is essentially them bouncing off each other with the occasional external influence stirrng things up.  I have and do play and run games that are like this.  In fact, I think it's the kind of game I most enjoy.

Hehe, me too. Well long term I think you need a bit more external than internal, because too heavy on the internal and game tables have a tendancy to blow up. Just too much constant pressure on the players. Now there might seem like there is more internal that external, but I think that's often an illusion created by it's intensity.

What would you give as a "big idea" in fantasy? Your taste runs to hard science, so I could see the pickings quite slim in fantasy for you.

P.S. How could you call LotR dull??? :what: Sure the old man did like to drone on and on and on and on. But just because in both my attempts I wouldn't inflict on myself fighting through to the finish it doesn't mean anything.

I love the idea of 'twenties and 'thirties-era pulp, but in execution, it often seems like another low-level supers game to me, with more gadgets and less spandex. And modern-day pulp (the novels of Jack DuBrul, James Rollins, Lee Child, et al) seems that it could be reproduced by any rules-light to rules-medium game with a modern setting (I like D6 Adventure, for example).

I like pulp as a genre sourcebook (such as GURPS' Cliffhangers), but I can't think of anything so unique about pulp which requires a rules engine devoted exclusively to it.

As to why it's in vogue with designers, I suppose it feels like a classy and  literary hook to hang a design on, rather than just calling it another generic action/adventure game. Recreating the tone is fun and intersesting, but I don't know that it's strictly a mechanics issue.

Quote from: blakkieWhat would you give as a "big idea" in fantasy? Your taste runs to hard science, so I could see the pickings quite slim in fantasy for you.

P.S. How could you call LotR dull??? :what: Sure the old man did like to drone on and on and on and on. But just because in both my attempts I wouldn't inflict on myself fighting through to the finish it doesn't mean anything.

  Fantasy isn't and hasn't been set up for Big Ideas since the 50's.  The closest you can get to it are works of fantasy that explicity ape SF like China Mieville's books and the later works of Pratchett (most dangerous man working in fantasy today).  I physically can't read mainstream fantasy... it drives me insane (which is problematic as last week I got a huge box of fantasy novels from Orbit books in the hope that I'd review some of them).

  I do think that LotR is dull.  I respect it as a real intellectual acheivement but I find the tone infuriating, the politics hideous, the poetry, language and mythology uninteresting and the basic plot rather dull.  I don't even particularly like the films.  I can just about stomach the first book but the second and third (the second in particular) are intolerable.

Getting back on track, I think Pulp - as envisaged nowadays as the twenties/thirties with a splash of superntaural and fantastic shenanigans (and robots, musn't forget the robots) suffers because the type of story they try to tell deviates from what is currently accepted.

Pulps (for want of a better descriptor) are low powered tales of hope and derring do.  Unfortunately we either have low powered gritty anti heroes or high powered tales of hope and derring do.  The fact you're then trying to get a large portion of the market to accept the cognitive dissonance inherent in modern roleplaying is going to hammer your success.

'Course I could just be talking shite....