Quote from: Emperor Norton;750850I was directing that at all the people who are calling people who like movies with superhero style action manchildren when they are sitting on a website devoted to rolling dice and pretending to be an elf.

I suppose its different though, because their elf is gritty and can die... wooo so adult of them.

I don't think there's anything wrong about liking superheros... it's the wanting/expecting/demanding that sort of sensory overload 24/7 that puts me off... it's like the 7yr old I know who doesn't get why she oughtta eat something other than marshmallows once in a while.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;750850I was directing that at all the people who are calling people who like movies with superhero style action manchildren when they are sitting on a website devoted to rolling dice and pretending to be an elf.

I don't recall anyone posting anything like that. Care to quote?

Quote from: The Butcher;750865I don't recall anyone posting anything like that. Care to quote?

It's my fault. I called a guy who was visibly exuberant while watching the new Transformers preview a 'man-child'... but really it had more to do with how he was dressed and acting... less his love of Michael Bay movies.

Quote from: Simlasa;750866It's my fault. I called a guy who was visibly exuberant while watching the new Transformers preview a 'man-child'... but really it had more to do with how he was dressed and acting... less his love of Michael Bay movies.

Fair enough. Also, personally, not a fan of the live action Transformers stuff... despite being a huge TF fan. They lack... well any personality or fun other than "boom boom, bang". Where as the current comics are at least boom boom bang + characters with enough personality to care about and witty writing.

Quote from: jhkim;750641My answer is that I will absolutely kill them off - but only if I haven't sold the game as a Conan game and/or a pulp game. If I sold the game as a Conan game and/or a pulp game, then if they behave in a pulp heroic manner, then the results should be similar to results in pulp adventure stories.

While I have a low mortality rate in my campaign, the answer is yes, I'll kill them off, but no, I don't consider that inconsistent with a pulp game.

I stand by my statement uptopic about the conventions of fiction being different from the conventions of gaming.  The reader's pretty sure that Conan will survive, somehow -- we know that Bêlit's Suba tribesmen are not, in fact, going to riddle him with holes.

But Conan doesn't know that for a dead certainty, and neither should the players in a pulp game.  If you're a deft enough GM to convince them that you're willing to kill them off even if you never have killed them off, good for you.  If they need to be convinced that they are in mortal danger by proving it, then that's what's needful.

Quote from: CRKrueger;750844Heh.  No doubt, I can see it now.

GM - Let's play a cinematic WWII game.
PC's - Oh yeah!
...later...
PC's - Out of Ammo, we charge the machinegun nest head on with fixed bayonets.
GM rolls dice - You're cut to pieces in the crossfire of 3 MG-42s.
PC - What?  I thought this was a cinematic game.
GM - It is, ever seen Saving Private Ryan?

I believe this wins the thread.

Quote from: jhkim;750784OK, but I haven't seen anyone arguing that Call of Cthulhu should have absolute plot protection. On the other hand, the OP explicitly argues: I posit that true-to-source pulp gaming not only admits but requires actual danger (meaning grittiness and lethality, and a lack of plot points).

I would say that you can have gritty and lethal true-to-source pulp gaming, and you can also have light-hearted, low-lethality true-to-source pulp gaming.

In short, I see no reason why I can't like both Call of Cthulhu and Spirit of the Century as pulp games...

I'm just wondering, what would be the original literary sources for a Spirit of the Century type game? To me it feels like a very (post) modern game, reminiscent of deconstructions of the pulp genre like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen,  with a "Sky Captain & the World of Tomorrow" patina (not a film I liked).

It kinda seems to me that I could do most of the original '30s "Two Fisted Tales" stuff a lot more easily in Call of Cthulu/BRP than in modern 'pulp' games.

Quote from: Ravenswing;750882While I have a low mortality rate in my campaign, the answer is yes, I'll kill them off, but no, I don't consider that inconsistent with a pulp game.

I stand by my statement uptopic about the conventions of fiction being different from the conventions of gaming.  The reader's pretty sure that Conan will survive, somehow -- we know that Bêlit's Suba tribesmen are not, in fact, going to riddle him with holes.

But Conan doesn't know that for a dead certainty, and neither should the players in a pulp game.  If you're a deft enough GM to convince them that you're willing to kill them off even if you never have killed them off, good for you.  If they need to be convinced that they are in mortal danger by proving it, then that's what's needful.

This is my feeling. For the PCs to behave like Conan in danger, they need to be facing actual danger. If you want an immersive genre game then genre emulation is probably best handled on the GM's side, so that eg the GM knows that the Pirate Queen wishes to capture the PCs, and if they act like Conan-in-genre they'll be treated like Conan-in-genre. If they act like mook #9 they'll be treated like mook #9.

Rather than Fate Points to avoid death through combat, I tend to think the OGL Conan game should have included more support for Conanesque activities outside of combat, eg if it had Escape/Evade rules, players would be more likely to flee. If it had seduction rules, PCs would be more likely to attempt seduction - in Conan's case it's the display of manly prowess though hacking up the big monster/evil wizard that serves as the seduction; likewise it's his killing tons of pirates that gets Belit interested.

Quote from: Ravenswing;750882I stand by my statement uptopic about the conventions of fiction being different from the conventions of gaming.  The reader's pretty sure that Conan will survive, somehow -- we know that Bêlit's Suba tribesmen are not, in fact, going to riddle him with holes.

But Conan doesn't know that for a dead certainty, and neither should the players in a pulp game.  If you're a deft enough GM to convince them that you're willing to kill them off even if you never have killed them off, good for you.  If they need to be convinced that they are in mortal danger by proving it, then that's what's needful.

On the other hand you technically do not know the character will allways make it. Literature is dotted with series that end with the main characters death. Writers get tired of a character and BOOM... dead.

Quote from: Omega;750961On the other hand you technically do not know the character will allways make it. Literature is dotted with series that end with the main characters death.

Not often enough.

But that's one of the reasons why To Live and Die in L.A. is one of my favorite movies.

I prefer the use of Drama/Fate/Hero/Luck points in this sort of situation. That way, while heroes are less likely to die, the players know when they SHOULD have died and when luck alone (in the form of said points) saved their hides.

Quote from: Omega;750961On the other hand you technically do not know the character will allways make it. Literature is dotted with series that end with the main characters death. Writers get tired of a character and BOOM... dead.

Yeah, I'm with BV -- very, very seldom.  If you can name me a popular pulp series where the author killed off the protagonist for good, I'll name you twenty where he didn't.

And like BV, I appreciate the vanishingly rare times this does happen.  While the Zoe/Wash shippers were howling in rage, Serenity is the only movie I can think of seeing in a long, long time (if ever) where after Wash and Book had bit it and the rest of the gang was getting the shit kicked out of them, I was gripping the arms of the theater seat, wondering if I was about to see an honest-to-Kurozawa TPK.

Quote from: Ravenswing;751190Yeah, I'm with BV -- very, very seldom.  If you can name me a popular pulp series where the author killed off the protagonist for good, I'll name you twenty where he didn't.

I believe the author of the "Misery" series killed off the main character.  That didn't work out so well.

Quote from: S'mon;750938This is my feeling. For the PCs to behave like Conan in danger, they need to be facing actual danger. If you want an immersive genre game then genre emulation is probably best handled on the GM's side, so that eg the GM knows that the Pirate Queen wishes to capture the PCs, and if they act like Conan-in-genre they'll be treated like Conan-in-genre. If they act like mook #9 they'll be treated like mook #9.

Rather than Fate Points to avoid death through combat, I tend to think the OGL Conan game should have included more support for Conanesque activities outside of combat, eg if it had Escape/Evade rules, players would be more likely to flee.

When you say they'll be "treated like Conan in-genre", do you mean that they will be saved rather than being killed in situations like Conan's when he fought against overwhelming odds?  If so, is this really "actual danger"?

Whether the GM saves them without fate point mechanics or the GM saves them with fate point mechanics, they are still saved.

People's taste varies in mechanics - I know a lot of people who don't like having points and dice and things and instead prefer to leave everything in the GM's hands. On the other hand, there are people who like having hit points rather than just having the GM tell them when they are wounded or dead; and likewise there are those who prefer luck to be measured rather than something given out by the GM without being explicit.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;751166I prefer the use of Drama/Fate/Hero/Luck points in this sort of situation. That way, while heroes are less likely to die, the players know when they SHOULD have died and when luck alone (in the form of said points) saved their hides.

Yes, this makes it more explicit that there is a limit to how much they will be saved. If the GM just saves them, it isn't necessarily clear how many more times they will be saved. For example, if we're playing out an adventure like Queen of the Black Coast, are the players pushing it too far if they have two fatalistic attacks in one adventure?

Quote from: jhkim;751240When you say they'll be "treated like Conan in-genre", do you mean that they will be saved rather than being killed in situations like Conan's when he fought against overwhelming odds?  If so, is this really "actual danger"?

In Queen of the Black Coast, Conan had a chance to survive, by impressing the enemy leader. Chances to survive are pulp-genre-appropriate. My Conanesque games certainly have higher protagonist fatality rates than the number of Conans who die in REH stories, though - but it tends to be because the PCs made the kind of tactical and/or strategic mistakes Conan doesn't make.

I ran OGL Conan, I found the Fate Points to be anti-immersive. The most Conanesque game I've run was a 4e D&D swords & sorcery campaign set in the Wilderlands; the 4e designers modelled the Fighter class on Conan and did an excellent job. It ended in a very appropriate TPK.