Quote from: tenbones;998369I don't consider fumbles which can occur anywhere in any game "grappling rules".

:confused: I have no idea how this statement relates to anything in the discussion that I said or that you previously said.

What I said was that combatants who lost their weapons could reasonably need to use grappling since they have no weapon (or none in hand). And that weapons could be lost or broken due to intentional action (e.g. a disarm maneuver) or to accidental action (e.g. a fumble). So fumbles are one way that Combatant A could end up with no weapon in hand. Which might then cause Combatant A to choose to attack or defend by grappling.

QuoteAs for disarming foes - sure. But it depends. Most of my players enjoy playing specialists. Unless they play someone that is inherently a defensive specialist in some form - "Disarming" is a secondary consideration at best. And almost never when it comes to formal combat outside of grappling specialization OR some ability that allows them to disarm without grappling.

I'm getting the impression that the rules you use don't allow disarm as a normal action. So only combatants with some special ability can try to disarm other combatants. Is that correct?

Quote from: Bren;998495:confused: I have no idea how this statement relates to anything in the discussion that I said or that you previously said.

What I said was that combatants who lost their weapons could reasonably need to use grappling since they have no weapon (or none in hand). And that weapons could be lost or broken due to intentional action (e.g. a disarm maneuver) or to accidental action (e.g. a fumble). So fumbles are one way that Combatant A could end up with no weapon in hand. Which might then cause Combatant A to choose to attack or defend by grappling.

Yeah I'm trying to stay on topic, heh. In all honesty - when fumbles and disarms have occurred by intention, I can't think of a single time when any player has ever resorted to initiating grappling as a more optimal path than retrieving their weapon (if possible) or otherwise running away.

I'm sure it's happened at some point. But it must have been so ineffectual, or non-impact that it simply doesn't register to my memory. And my memory is pretty good (so far).

Quote from: Bren;998495I'm getting the impression that the rules you use don't allow disarm as a normal action. So only combatants with some special ability can try to disarm other combatants. Is that correct?

These days I'm playing a lot of Savage Worlds (Beasts and Barbarians currently). Disarming is very much part of the system - but most of my players, again, are very specialized combatants and disarming is rarely a better choice than their schtick. I've disarmed them with my NPC's, but it doesn't register to any of them as being worth doing. /shrug.

Quote from: tenbones;998369I don't consider fumbles which can occur anywhere in any game "grappling rules".

Some examples of fumbles in grappling/Wrestling:
Throwing an opponent to the floor and losing grip
Striking someone and breaking your own fingers
Jumping off a post and hitting the floor badly, breaking your arm

Or, are you saying that you expect Grappling Rules to only be about grappling and not contain generic rules?

Quote from: soltakss;998797are you saying that you expect Grappling Rules to only be about grappling and not contain generic rules?

Close! I'm saying that the core mechanics of combat, in whatever system you're using, should be obeyed. Grappling should leverage those rules for discrete use specifically for grappling shenannigans. That abstractions of the mechanics should remains uniform but the conditions they convey should be specific.

Example - in my version of FASERIP - you make a grapple check exactly like you'd make any other melee attack. Your options for defense are the same as they would be against any other melee attack. However, if successful, and depending on the degree of success - the grapple will impart specific conditions upon the target. These conditions will dictate offense and defensive options going forward until the target can escape.

At no point do the inherent mechanics of the game change for the sub-routine of grappling, the only thing that changes are the conditions and options of what you can/can't do while grappled.


Now each stage of this process can/should be modified for skills, proficiences, gear, environment - just like any other form of combat. Again this adheres to the general core rule of the combat engine of any system.

What I don't like is when it gets too far into the weeds of weird mechanics that go outside the core conceits pf a system. D&D is particularly odd about it, and unnecessarily so. Fumbles doing *anything* can be easily abstracted depending on what everyone is doing. I don't think that maneuvers like Disarm, Trip, Throw, etc. should necessarily be segregated only for grappling either. But they should be codified into grappling sub-system mechanics for sure.

My suspicions about why this is - and I'd love to hear Gronan and some others that are familiar with the backstory of the origin's of D&D's system, their opinion on this - is that there was never any real assumption that fighting with your bare-hands, grappling or otherwise (outside of the Monk class), would ever be competitive with a weapon, because they wanted it to be "realistic". Hence bare-handed handed fighting always did 1-point of damage (+Str bonus) and you rolled on the crazy chart, and it was non-lethal.

They work fine in Champions. Getting grabbed by a strong guy who knows what he's doing sucks. Getting grabbed by The Hulk sucks even more. This is reflected in the rules. And if you've learned to count Normal Damage BODY and adjust CVs for maneuvers, you've already gotten over most of the learning curve.

Quote from: tenbones;998116Then you're talking about skill on skill that happens to be physically stronger. Not skill vs. brute force. Hence the weight-classes in *sports*.

In your example I would dispute your criteria for "skill" equating to time served in training. There is a big difference between training for a fight and actually fighting and being skilled at fighting. Sure there's a general correlation - but I will submit there are *vastly* no good examples of any non-trained fighter, I don't care *how* strong or big they are, beating a real* Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black-belt in a streetfight or a contest without some serious mitigating circumstances. I'd extend this even to brown-belts in BJJ. Purple? Maaayyybe.

I would submit the same for a non-trained fighter going against a Division 1 or Division 2 collegiate wrestler too.

* - meaning they trained with the Machados, the Gracies or one of their students.

Edit: and the reason why is simple training. Skilled grapplers (and by this I'm using the demarcation of someone with a BJJ blackbelt, or someone on a Division 1/2 squad) - are people that have spend *thousands* of hours on the mat going 110% just to get to that level which is a baseline for "skilled". If we're talking about people that dabble (like me - I wrestled for 6 years and in my prime I'd have been barely skilled, now? pfft. Against a nobody, I'd fuck them up. Against anyone active with a modicum of skill - I'd get trashed) that's not a fair standard for what I'm talking about.

I think what you are trying to say here is that you are Level 3.

Quote from: Dumarest;998375Matchless magnanimity! But we mustn't misremember and merely memorialize majestic melee! Marvel also meritoriously mooted monthly moderately meandering and mildly maudlin and morose modern melodrama such as mild-mannered Aunt May's matronly mollycoddling.

Good show M.

Quote from: tenbones;998805Close! I'm saying that the core mechanics of combat, in whatever system you're using, should be obeyed. Grappling should leverage those rules for discrete use specifically for grappling shenannigans. That abstractions of the mechanics should remains uniform but the conditions they convey should be specific.

Oh, that makes sense, thanks.

Quote from: kosmos1214;998901Good show M.

As an alumnus of the Stan Lee American Academy of Alliteration for Aspiring Authors, an accredited association active  in avoiding atrocious Anglophonic asonance and achieving actual awesome alphabetical  artistry, adulation, approbation, and acknowledgment of assidousness  are absolutely approved and accepted!

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Nice. Earthdawn 4th rules use the unified system already in place. Grappling is an Unarmed Combat vs Phys Defense test with one extra success requires (PD +5 - one of the various things that cost an extra success). Success on a grapple test restricts the target's movement and options, and at GM call the target needs to roll higher than the grappler's Unarmed Combat step to do anything (like reverse the grapple, break off, draw a weapon, etc). Breaking off/reversing the grapple costs your action and an Unarmed Combat or Strength step test vs the grappler's Unarmed Combat step. Grapple is automatically held if the grappler spends their action (but can use simple/free actions like swift Kick, Second Weapon, etc).

Almost lost a party to grappling knife-specialist Theif Adepts in Kratas once.

Has anyone seen the John Wick / Keanu Reeves movies? How would your favorite system handle modeling his gun and hth grappling skills?

HM

Feng Shui is the best cinematic martial arts game out there I think but it is far from granular if that's what you're looking for.

Quote from: Hyper-Man;999476Has anyone seen the John Wick / Keanu Reeves movies? How would your favorite system handle modeling his gun and hth grappling skills?

HM

By taking the Killer or the Spy archetype, I guess. Feng Shui 2 doesn't really differentiate between grappling and striking, so it can do cinematic grappling as easily as cinematic kung-fu kicks:).


I'm reading Dungeon Grappling, and getting a feeling that I really need to get GURPS Tactical Grappling;).

Quote from: AsenRG;1001803I'm reading Dungeon Grappling, and getting a feeling that I really need to get GURPS Tactical Grappling;).

Both products are great, to be sure. I've just been gearing up to use Technical Grappling "seriously" for the first time in my currently running campaign, as a matter of fact.