Have you guys heard about this? The Ptolus Kickstarter is apparently happening, and in it Monte Cook (or Germain or whoever is running it) quoted a bunch of good reviews from earlier editions of Ptolus. One of these was from theRPGsite.
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But the Twitter SJWs went frantic about this and alerted Monte Cook that they were quoting an evil site that allows Free Speech and diversity of opinions and that if Cook didn't take it down he's a nazi.
But of course, Monte Cook isn't a Nazi. Monte Cook is an RPG Maoist (https://youtu.be/BAJooKNQgks).
So he immediately conceded and took down the image that the Twitter SJWs were so scared of.
Remember, kids:
[video=youtube_share;BAJooKNQgks]https://youtu.be/BAJooKNQgks[/youtube]
All it tells me is to avoid this kickstarter now.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1122538All it tells me is to avoid this kickstarter now.
Well if it is by Monte Cook one always should avoid giving him any money.
That's misattribution. The RPG Site doesn't review books; individuals on this site review books.
That's from ColonelHardisson's review (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?1879-Ptolus-City-by-the-Spire). Now, maybe ColonelHardisson's reviews don't carry any cachet with the gaming public, but that's who they need to attribute the quote to.
I would be extremely put out if any of my personal opinions were applied universally to the members of this forum knowing how few of them agree with me.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1122542Well if it is by Monte Cook one always should avoid giving him any money.
Speak for yourself, I am not missing out on Ptolus a second time so I am giving him all the moneys.
And dont even talk to me about the cost of shipping that bad boy.
This could be a fun game to play. Let's look at the other reviews through that lens.
"reviewed on Amazon" -- Isn't Amazon a giant corporation that makes their money by nearly working their warehouse staff to death? That may not be one to go with.
"reviewed on DriveThruRPG" -- Seriously? They *still* sell stuff by Zak Smith and James Raggi.
"reviewed on Goodreads" -- Goodreads has Mein Kampf with a rating of 3.16 / 5 stars. THAT'S A POSITIVE RATING FOR ACTUAL NAZI PROPAGANDA.
Gut guy looks like a failed flippin the bird attempt. Plus did that lizard person consent to being roped up like that?
Quote from: RPGPundit;1122524Have you guys heard about this? The Ptolus Kickstarter is apparently happening, and in it Monte Cook (or Germain or whoever is running it) quoted a bunch of good reviews from earlier editions of Ptolus. One of these was from theRPGsite.
And on top of that, KickStarter's gatekeeper is an SJW. Indiegogo doesn't have that problem.
Quote from: Shasarak;1122565Speak for yourself, I am not missing out on Ptolus a second time so I am giving him all the moneys.
And dont even talk to me about the cost of shipping that bad boy.
They're shipping to Kiwiland from Oz so the cost should not be too prohibitive.
Post the Twitter wanking! Sounds like good LOLZ.
Monte Cook is crazily overrated. I remember the constant wankery over his stuff in the 3e days, but I don't think I ever saw his stuff being played at actual tables. I've read some of the original Ptolus, and while it isn't bad, it isn't notable either. It's overpriced toilet reading for people who read game books instead of novels while dropping a deuce.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1122563That's misattribution. The RPG Site doesn't review books; individuals on this site review books.
That's from ColonelHardisson's review (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?1879-Ptolus-City-by-the-Spire). Now, maybe ColonelHardisson's reviews don't carry any cachet with the gaming public, but that's who they need to attribute the quote to.
I would be extremely put out if any of my personal opinions were applied universally to the members of this forum knowing how few of them agree with me.
Well, I agree that the reviewer should be cited, but the point is that the reviews here are not done by staff or something like that. They're open and free speech.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1122579Post the Twitter wanking! Sounds like good LOLZ.
Monte Cook is crazily overrated. I remember the constant wankery over his stuff in the 3e days, but I don't think I ever saw his stuff being played at actual tables. I've read some of the original Ptolus, and while it isn't bad, it isn't notable either. It's overpriced toilet reading for people who read game books instead of novels while dropping a deuce.
I remember a group that was convinced to play Numenera. The game was organized by the FLGS owner, and he pushed for everyone to get the book (and offered a 15% discount).After everybody had bought the book, the game folded in less than a month. Shortly after that, several copies of almost-new Numenera were on the used shelf and the FLGS owner stopped ordering further Numenera products. I heard that everyone tried to like the game, but they all ended up hating the way it plays.
A tale of people who are either sinister or idiots or both, behaving badly about a review that was anyway misattributed; what a depressing display of fuckwittery.
At least I don't care about Ptolus, which seems to be intended (explicitly I think) as a crystallisation of the implicit setting of kitchen-sink 3E and now 5E. It is totally normal to see dragonborn and tieflings wandering around the streets! Low-level magic is commonly used and appropriately regulated! Says the blurb as near literally as I can manage without going and checking the site again. So... the fantasy elements become just everyday shit that happens. Does that not kind of miss the point?
Quote from: Almost_Useless;1122568This could be a fun game to play. Let's look at the other reviews through that lens.
"reviewed on Amazon" -- Isn't Amazon a giant corporation that makes their money by nearly working their warehouse staff to death? That may not be one to go with.
"reviewed on DriveThruRPG" -- Seriously? They *still* sell stuff by Zak Smith and James Raggi.
"reviewed on Goodreads" -- Goodreads has Mein Kampf with a rating of 3.16 / 5 stars. THAT'S A POSITIVE RATING FOR ACTUAL NAZI PROPAGANDA.
(https://i.imgur.com/himZD0M.gif)
I'd read a magazine called Sensible Chuckle.
Quote from: Marchand;1122591So... the fantasy elements become just everyday shit that happens. Does that not kind of miss the point?
As long as there's a level where it can still most definitely
not be everyday shit, they can be both. In the
Earthsea books magic is both a daily widespread practical craft, even an unglamorous one, at its lower levels,
and a mighty legendary art capable of sinking islands and ripping holes between worlds; it just doesn't do the latter nearly as often, and when it does those are what the stories are about.
(One of the things I always enjoyed about those books is that they really do quite subtly but effectively deconstruct the "tyranny of expertise" by emphasizing just how much even the most powerful mages don't and can't know, and how much safe and proper use of power involves admitting that lack of knowledge.)
$150 for the print version? Damn.
What was the original version? I know I didn't pay that much, thinking $75 - $100.
Quote from: Thornhammer;1122707$150 for the print version? Damn.
What was the original version? I know I didn't pay that much, thinking $75 - $100.
The 2006 preorder price was $119.99.
Quote from: Pat;1122711The 2006 preorder price was $119.99.
That sounds about right. The current Noble Knight price is $225. Amazon has prices starting at $770 new and $335 used, but those are meaningless.
Quote from: Aglondir;1122712That sounds about right. The current Noble Knight price is $225. Amazon has prices starting at $770 new and $335 used, but those are meaningless.
I have a mint copy that I would sell for $770.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1122714I have a mint copy that I would sell for $770.
I will sell mine for $769. :D
Quote from: Pat;1122711The 2006 preorder price was $119.99.
100% certain I didn't preorder it, and I'm about 80% certain it was under a c-note when I did buy it, but not by much. I think it came with a sheaf of player booklets.
Part of me is saying "no, you're getting it confused with World's Largest Dungeon" but the sheaf of player booklets was definitely not just a stack of maps.
This isnt a doorstopper. Its a damn barricade! :eek:
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1122714I have a mint copy that I would sell for $770.
Except that "Fuckstick" is written in the margins on a couple of pages as a theft deterrent.
Quote from: Omega;1122721This isnt a doorstopper. Its a damn barricade! :eek:
It's like T5, but it doesn't even have the devoted fanbase.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1122610As long as there's a level where it can still most definitely not be everyday shit, they can be both. In the Earthsea books magic is both a daily widespread practical craft, even an unglamorous one, at its lower levels, and a mighty legendary art capable of sinking islands and ripping holes between worlds; it just doesn't do the latter nearly as often, and when it does those are what the stories are about.
(One of the things I always enjoyed about those books is that they really do quite subtly but effectively deconstruct the "tyranny of expertise" by emphasizing just how much even the most powerful mages don't and can't know, and how much safe and proper use of power involves admitting that lack of knowledge.)
I can see what you are saying. It's an aesthetic thing I suppose - I just don't like ubiquitous-magic settings. For one thing, it's hard to think through all the implications of even a Level 1 and 2 spell list plus basic magic items being available more or less retail, and a lot of setting writers don't even bother. Ptolus at least sounds like it might make an effort to do so.
the one good thing I can think of that Cook did was when he wrote his d20 World of Darkness book, which was supposed to be his last RPG book before he moved on to novels...
He wiped a specific small town in South Dakota off the face of the earth as that was where the demonic incursion attempted to land. (I can't remember which town it was) Having been to many small towns in South Dakota (including the one in question) I say good riddance!
(then again Cook was born in a small town in South Dakota so that is probably where a lot of the hate comes from)
Trying to please the Twitter outrage mob never works. They'll inevitably attack you again for some other trivial thought-crime.
Remember the Nibovian wife controversy? The Nibovian wife was an artificial creation by aliens that pretended to be a normal woman, seduced adventurers, got pregnant, then gave birth to alien babies whose first act in life is attempting to kill their father. It's a monster based on the Freudian nightmare that "women exist to entrap men into having families that destroy their previously awesome lives." Some people complained.
Before you start attacking me as an evil SJW trying to destroy your fun, I'm not saying that we should ban all the monsters whose shtick amounts to "present as female and predate on men using seduction." I do think we have an over-saturation of such monsters in gaming bestiaries and a surprisingly lack of monsters that do the same thing with the genders inverted, even though both kinds of monsters exist in world mythology and for many of the same reasons. E.g. the incubus, the satyr, the kishi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kishi_(folklore)), the shape-shifting alligator man of the Ozarks (https://www.scaryforkids.com/alligators/), etc.
To be honest, I'd be more interested in a version of the Nibovian wife who produces alien babies that serve some kind of utility to her adventurer husband. Disposable soldiers, spare clones, living equipment, etc. That's way more disturbing, too, than yet another black widow succubus.
The Twitter clowns would cry about a monster that preyed on female PCs too. It would be total muhsoggyknees to have such a monster in any game because it would "penalize" players who chose female PCs. There is no end to the dumb.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1122996Remember the Nibovian wife controversy?
Nope. This is the first I've heard of it.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1122996Before you start attacking me as an evil SJW trying to destroy your fun, I'm not saying that we should ban all the monsters whose shtick amounts to "present as female and predate on men using seduction." I do think we have an over-saturation of such monsters in gaming bestiaries and a surprisingly lack of monsters that do the same thing with the genders inverted, even though both kinds of monsters exist in world mythology and for many of the same reasons. E.g. the incubus, the satyr, the kishi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kishi_(folklore)), the shape-shifting alligator man of the Ozarks (https://www.scaryforkids.com/alligators/), etc.
Coincidentally my party had to kill a Kishi last week. The poor bastard did not want to give up the Angel that he was going to eat for dinner.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1123035The Twitter clowns would cry about a monster that preyed on female PCs too. It would be total muhsoggyknees to have such a monster in any game because it would "penalize" players who chose female PCs. There is no end to the dumb.
Yup. This bears repeating: you cannot appease the social justice mob. If you don't write about 'peoples of color', you're whitewashing; if you DO write about them, you're appropriating.
The only winning move is not to play against them, and focus on generating quality.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1123035The Twitter clowns would cry about a monster that preyed on female PCs too. It would be total muhsoggyknees to have such a monster in any game because it would "penalize" players who chose female PCs. There is no end to the dumb.
It gets worse. Paizo claims to be really progressive, yet they're the ones who are pushing creepy sexual predators, objectification of women, and repurposed racist rhetoric in their bestiaries. The ogres literally rape people to death (wtf?) and even one drop of ogre blood pollutes your bloodline forever (which sounds exactly like slaveowner rhetoric btw), sirens are all-female woman-headed
birds who have to seduce humanoid men to reproduce (realistically
this would kill her), the thriae are all-female bee women who seduce humanoid men to reproduce and put on strip shows for them too (wtf?), satyrs are only born from rapes (wtf?), the jorogumo seduces men and after sex lays her eggs inside them (this doesn't occur in the original myths (http://yokai.com/jorougumo/), where jorogumo are not actually female but ordinary spiders who leveled up), and dear god please make it stop.
I had no problem with that creepy fetish bullshit when it was in
Monster Girl Encyclopedia, but that was explicitly porn. I'm not interested in having the writers' creepy fetishes shoehorned into tabletop games. I got more than a lifetime of that bullshit by reading Chris Fields.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1123036Nope. This is the first I've heard of it.
It didn't blow up, then. Either not a lot of people cared, or they were already used to it after reading Paizo's creepy fetish monsters.
Quote from: Shasarak;1123044Coincidentally my party had to kill a Kishi last week. The poor bastard did not want to give up the Angel that he was going to eat for dinner.
I thought Kishi preyed on mortals? Where'd it capture an angel?
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1123082Yup. This bears repeating: you cannot appease the social justice mob. If you don't write about 'peoples of color', you're whitewashing; if you DO write about them, you're appropriating.
The only winning move is not to play against them, and focus on generating quality.
You can generate quality and still write about "diversity" at the same time. All too often I see writers using the outrage mob as an excuse to
never write about
any kind of diversity, even going out of their way to avoid including any.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1123131I thought Kishi preyed on mortals? Where'd it capture an angel?
The Angel was summoned to find some medicinal herbs in the Mwangi Jungle and unfortunately encountered the Kishi.
Fortunately for the Angel, the Kishi encountered the party who took a dim view of trying to eat Angels.
Shasarak, I can't believe allowed your players to wallow in their narrow minded view of Kishi-Angel relations. And their only solution was violence! I'm sure Evil Hat has a re-education PDF to help them evolve from this teaching moment.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1123131Paizo claims to be really progressive, yet they're the ones who are pushing creepy sexual predators, objectification of women, and repurposed racist rhetoric in their bestiaries.
How.not.surprising. The creepiest fucks are always the self-appointed "moral guardians."
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1123131All too often I see writers using the outrage mob as an excuse to never write about any kind of diversity, even going out of their way to avoid including any.
What kind of sick monster are you!! Don't you know that including diversity is cultural appropriation! Plus you're not allowed to write about that culture or ethnicity or gender or sexual preference or whatever unless YOU are a member of that group.
Don't force the good people to cancel you!!!
Quote from: Spinachcat;1123161Shasarak, I can't believe allowed your players to wallow in their narrow minded view of Kishi-Angel relations. And their only solution was violence! I'm sure Evil Hat has a re-education PDF to help them evolve from this teaching moment.
How.not.surprising. The creepiest fucks are always the self-appointed "moral guardians."
What kind of sick monster are you!! Don't you know that including diversity is cultural appropriation! Plus you're not allowed to write about that culture or ethnicity or gender or sexual preference or whatever unless YOU are a member of that group.
Don't force the good people to cancel you!!!
The moderate left recognizes that the far left gets out of hand. Here's an article criticizing how people mistreat ownvoices to the detriment of authors: https://foreverandeverly.wordpress.com/2018/05/27/ownvoices-pressure-discussion/
OMG, you linked to an article saying it's ok to write about people different from yourself!! Where do you find such Neo-Nazi propaganda???
What has this forum become???
:)
Quote from: Spinachcat;1123207OMG, you linked to an article saying it's ok to write about people different from yourself!! Where do you find such Neo-Nazi propaganda???
What has this forum become???
:)
Here's another article (https://curiosityneverkilledthewriter.com/yes-you-should-be-afraid-to-write-diverse-characters-4a6c482a7379) saying that:
QuoteYou should be writing your characters as if each one is a fully fleshed out human being. Never include a character in a piece to fill some sort of quota, act as a token for a larger group, or act as a mouthpiece for large sections of the population. Diverse characters don't need a "reason" to exist in the story at all, as diverse people don't need a reason to exist in real life.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1123283'Diverse characters don't need a "reason" to exist in the story at all, as diverse people don't need a reason to exist in real life.'
Except that's not true. A story is a constructed work of art.
Every character in the story is there for a reason; that's what separates art from real life. Even if the reason is only to make the story
resemble a certain kind of real life, that's still a conscious, deliberate, aesthetic reason.
It's when the reason is anything other than "I wanted to write about/from the POV of this character because I thought it would be interesting/amusing/entertaining/moving" that you get into the browbeating.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1123290Except that's not true. A story is a constructed work of art. Every character in the story is there for a reason; that's what separates art from real life. Even if the reason is only to make the story resemble a certain kind of real life, that's still a conscious, deliberate, aesthetic reason.
It's when the reason is anything other than "I wanted to write about/from the POV of this character because I thought it would be interesting/amusing/entertaining/moving" that you get into the browbeating.
If we're being pedantic, then yes. Fiction is by definition the product of the writer's intent. That's the basis of the Thermian argument.
I assume Mo Black's intent was to rebut the surprisingly common attitude of being arbitrarily anti-diversity. I myself can't recall meeting these kinds of people.
In any case, I would argue cynically and pragmatically that adding diversity is a useful marketing tool and that it can have psychological effects on minority audiences that make them happier and more productive.
But yes, the primary reason I personally like diversity in fantasy is for the cool fantasy counterpart culture factor. When you just throw black characters into generic faux Europe, it feels to me like erasing African culture. That's why I'm fascinated by the Sword & Soul genre.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1123295hat's why I'm fascinated by the Sword & Soul genre.
I didn't know there was a name for it now. What works would you recommend as good introductory examples?
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1123296I didn't know there was a name for it now. What works would you recommend as good introductory examples?
The anthology "Griots" is available on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Griots-Anthology-Milton-J-Davis/dp/0980084288
EDIT: Also, this article lists some prominent examples: https://afrofantasy.net/2015/04/15/in-defense-of-sword-and-soul/
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1123296I didn't know there was a name for it now. What works would you recommend as good introductory examples?
Imaro's definitely worth reading.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1123283Here's another article (https://curiosityneverkilledthewriter.com/yes-you-should-be-afraid-to-write-diverse-characters-4a6c482a7379) saying that:
That entire article - and all like them - are completely negated by the American Dirt controversy. The American Dirt author thought she was being a good little liberal, but thanks to the newest purity tests, she and her book (and probably career) got pureed in the blender by the same people demanding "diversity".
Now the mob has tasted blood, why would they stop?
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1122741It's like T5, but it doesn't even have the devoted fanbase.
Best review ever.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1122741It's like T5, but it doesn't even have the devoted fanbase.
Eh? No love for T5? Anyone write a review on it?
Quote from: Spinachcat;1123314That entire article - and all like them - are completely negated by the American Dirt controversy. The American Dirt author thought she was being a good little liberal, but thanks to the newest purity tests, she and her book (and probably career) got pureed in the blender by the same people demanding "diversity".
Now the mob has tasted blood, why would they stop?
The book appears to be enjoying success. I don't think most customers actually care about the controversy. Especially since the outrage mob has probably desensitized most people to controversy.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1123318Best review ever.
Thank you, sir :)
Quote from: GameDaddy;1123329Eh? No love for T5? Anyone write a review on it?
Evidently, the art is awful, the organization is flawed, and there's reams of data that while interesting, really aren't -useful- in a game.
A good example one friend pointed me to was Extensions, which lists number stats for Importance, Economy, and Culture, and how to derive them... but it doesn't explain what the USE of these stats are (and for Culture, whether having low or high numbers in the subfields is a good thing). It would be like, oh, if D&D characters had an attribute called 'Intensity' but never specified why you needed points in it or what it was used for, or even which ends of the number spectrum were good.
EDIT: Oh, y'all know Erin Palette. I should've searched before. Her review of T5 is here:
http://lurkingrhythmically.blogspot.com/2014/01/traveller-tuesday-review-of-t5.html
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1123334The book appears to be enjoying success.
The author lost her book tour. AKA, all her promotional marketing. Why? Death threats and promises by SJW freaks to disrupt every step of her tour. Apparently, her "proud wahmen" card didn't mean much to them.
No other author is gonna look at this shitshow and go, "yup, that's for me!" Let alone any publisher! Nope, the future is authors and books which pass the purity tests. Both you and your writing will need to jump through whatever the hoops-du-jour might be.
But I love it. The author is getting everything she deserves. Turns out that while the SJWs demand the panderbear...they then destroy the panderbear! That's pure fabulous.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1123338Thank you, sir :)
Evidently, the art is awful, the organization is flawed, and there's reams of data that while interesting, really aren't -useful- in a game.
A good example one friend pointed me to was Extensions, which lists number stats for Importance, Economy, and Culture, and how to derive them... but it doesn't explain what the USE of these stats are (and for Culture, whether having low or high numbers in the subfields is a good thing). It would be like, oh, if D&D characters had an attribute called 'Intensity' but never specified why you needed points in it or what it was used for, or even which ends of the number spectrum were good.
EDIT: Oh, y'all know Erin Palette. I should've searched before. Her review of T5 is here:
http://lurkingrhythmically.blogspot.com/2014/01/traveller-tuesday-review-of-t5.html
Ahh Thank You very Much! I'll be visiting with
Marc in a couple weeks and will ask him about it. Planning on picking up T5 at the same time, soooo....
Quote from: Spinachcat;1123408The author lost her book tour. AKA, all her promotional marketing. Why? Death threats and promises by SJW freaks to disrupt every step of her tour. Apparently, her "proud wahmen" card didn't mean much to them.
No other author is gonna look at this shitshow and go, "yup, that's for me!" Let alone any publisher! Nope, the future is authors and books which pass the purity tests. Both you and your writing will need to jump through whatever the hoops-du-jour might be.
But I love it. The author is getting everything she deserves. Turns out that while the SJWs demand the panderbear...they then destroy the panderbear! That's pure fabulous.
Only for authors playing the dying TradPub game.
Over here in IndiePub, none of that shit is a concern. The worst to worry about is rogue SJWs in Big Tech orgs (e.g. Amazon) noticing that you're a Wrongthinker (not a problem for most Indies) and messing with your listings, and that's more tedious than difficult to deal with. Instead, IndiePub authors have practical business issues to address: what is the current Amazon algorithm state, what ad buys are most effective, how to put a cover that sells, etc. with nary a dangerhaired screamer in sight.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1123424Ahh Thank You very Much! I'll be visiting with Marc in a couple weeks and will ask him about it. Planning on picking up T5 at the same time, soooo....
Ask him about the screw tank! :D
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1123427Only for authors playing the dying TradPub game.
100% agree, but TradPub is still where most of the money happens. It's where the advances, book tours and film deals happen. It's a much harder road for the IndiePub, although far more freedom.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;1123427Only for authors playing the dying TradPub game.
Over here in IndiePub, none of that shit is a concern. The worst to worry about is rogue SJWs in Big Tech orgs (e.g. Amazon) noticing that you're a Wrongthinker (not a problem for most Indies) and messing with your listings, and that's more tedious than difficult to deal with. Instead, IndiePub authors have practical business issues to address: what is the current Amazon algorithm state, what ad buys are most effective, how to put a cover that sells, etc. with nary a dangerhaired screamer in sight.
Actually I do have one good question. How does indiepub actually advertise their books?
Quote from: Shasarak;1122565Speak for yourself, I am not missing out on Ptolus a second time so I am giving him all the moneys.
And dont even talk to me about the cost of shipping that bad boy.
I think I am going to get the electronic version. It has a good reputation in some quarters and might be fun to see if it has good ideas. If nothing else there is an advantage to well constructed city map and names for major NPCs.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1123573Actually I do have one good question. How does indiepub actually advertise their books?
According to the folks in #20BooksTo50K, the indiepub mentoring group I'm in, most ad buys are on Amazon itself or on Facebook because that's where the majority of novel-buyers (regardless of genre) are.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1123512100% agree, but TradPub is still where most of the money happens. It's where the advances, book tours and film deals happen. It's a much harder road for the IndiePub, although far more freedom.
Not really. The advances remain anemic for most authors (two book deal is still $5K or so, and that's the standard, with terrible royalty rates that are rarely realized), churn is stupid-high (most newbies don't earn out their advance and get dropped), and the publisher now expects authors to do all the real promotion work themselves. Only the very top-tier talents get that attention anymore, and that was before OldPub's cancer got as bad as it is now. Might as well just go via Amazon as indies for all the work you're going to have to do anyway.
OldPub is like a Pay-To-Win mobile game. It relies stupid-heavily on a handful of whales and a long-tail of back-catalog titles it has the rights to, and it feeds them the rapidly-dying midlist as well as the new blood in the vain hope of finding anyone close to another Martin or Corey while churning through them at a rate that would make the Imperium of Man blush. Wine Moms and Cat Ladies dominate the publishing jobs, and they care more about feels and status than business- with the sale of Simon & Schuster being the most blatant proof to date that OldPub is a zombie giant slowly collapsing as the rot finally eats through at mission-critical components of operation.
And don't expect the film and TV deals to stay out of NewPub hands for much longer. Not when authors with film and TV ties build up new properties that would adapted well to those media. (e.g. Cole & Anspach's mil-SF series, "Galaxy's Edge") Not when internationally-savvy authors eye parties outside of Hollywood for such deals.
What percentage of best sellers are coming out of NewPub vs. OldPub?
I'm hugely supportive of NewPub and DIY self-publishing for all the reasons you stated, but maybe I'm missing it, but when I look through the best seller stacks at the airport, I am seeing OldPub.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1123613What percentage of best sellers are coming out of NewPub vs. OldPub?
I'm hugely supportive of NewPub and DIY self-publishing for all the reasons you stated, but maybe I'm missing it, but when I look through the best seller stacks at the airport, I am seeing OldPub.
Because the stacks at the airport aren't where over 80% of book sales--and yes, spreading out to retail generally, this includes RPGs--are made. It's Amazon. Yes, including hardcovers and paperbacks. Yes, including merchandise (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhV-Hgtl0ok). This is why Amazon can bully the hell out of OldPub, and the only growth--if you can call it that--in retail is in the secondary market, which is also severely inhibited by Amazon competing with it. Sure, this will change in due course as folks figure out how to retail effectively vs. Amazon, but OldPub won't survive long enough to get there.
The airport has stores which post the top 10 or top 20 bestsellers in both fiction and nonfiction sections. Regardless whether the airport sells any books, these are the books listed as the current bestsellers in the market. And these books don't look like NewPub because most have the recognizable names of OldPub houses on their spine.
I'm well aware Amazon owns the book business to the point of nigh-monopoly, but what I am not sure is what is selling on Amazon. How much of what is Amazon selling is NewPub vs. OldPub? AKA, in Amazon's Top 20 books being sold, what's the breakdown between NewPub and OldPub?
I don't see Hollywood abandoning OldPub because agents like to talk to agents, aka gatekeepers keep it behind the gates. Of course, if a NewPub book is successful, I could see agents reaching out to them in the future.
Also, my concern for NewPub long term is the lack of editors. OldPub (for all its drawbacks) used to have a good system where authors had their books edited and given notes to improve aspects. As editors don't work for free and NewPub has no advances, I see an issue where NewPub's noise-to-signal ratio could be worse than OldPub.