In my own book the distinction between magic and psi was that magic was ambient. Something tapped and stored from outside. The user draws on the external source. Magic use can be learned
Whereas psi was internal. The user is the source. One is born with psi powers, they can not be learned.

Ive seen others flip that around with magic being internal and psi being an external source.

Quote from: Phillip;850680Again, how is this arbitrarily okay when it's in a "spell list" write-up? If it's not, then why the double standard of throwing out the baby with the bathwater only with one game system and not the other?

Because Trappings are what make a setting and differentiate it from others. The modern conception of "Magic" is a fantasy phenomena, it's basic D&D with elves, trolls, fairies and World of Warcraft...

The basic modern concept of Psionics is based more on "science" even if it's a pseudo-science. The point of Psychic Potential is that at least in terms of modern society, it was believed to be 'possible', to the point both the CIA and KGB did extensive research into both.

Psychic power is something that is simply more attached to Science Fiction. From Star Trek and it's lack of magic but acceptance of Psi, to Modern Superheroes which present psychic power as a natural evolution of the brain..

For a lot of people, it's mixing to much science with their fantasy. Like wanting to have realistic evolution in their setting. For some fantasy settings and some people, it seems to work out fine, but for most it doesn't.

I never read any Tolkien, just saw the movies so I can't speak to the literature...but nothing in the movies made me go "Psychic Power" everything seemed more a trapping of magic, whether it was an inherent magical ability or not.

This is interesting because I'm currently design a ninja vs espers setting where psychic/prana powers are the main source of magic in the setting. But this will be a Pathfinder compantible setting with a heavy martial arts emphasis, and utterly unlike a traditional D&D setting. The psychic powers will be an anime/manga esper flavor.

When I run traditional D&D, I don't have them in my settings, as most implementations are SF-ish and dissonant with swords and sorcery fantasy that I like.

Bemusingly the AD&D DMG mentions The Shadow concerning psionic invisibility.

Quote from: Orphan81;850933Psychic power is something that is simply more attached to Science Fiction.

But again, really only in name and explanation/justification. Fantasy is full of characters with special powers that don't really come under current ideas of 'magic'... abilities that come naturally to them without recourse to a Hogwart's or internship with a crazy old man in a tower... doing uncanny things without spells or formulas or elixers or musty tomes of forbidden knowledge.
The thing is, such fantasy characters usually aren't all that powerful. No fireballs or exploding heads.
They read palms or tea leaves or cards or minds, look into crystal balls, find water with dowsing rods, discern truths with pendulums or dice... have prophetic dreams and visions come to them free of asking.
Fairy tales have loads of otherwise ordinary creatures and people who casually exhibit some extraordinary ability or imbue objects with singular powers without being formal witches or magicians.
I don't know of any RPG that captures that feel of omnipresent low-powered magic (because it is magic, but not the book learned spell-casting sort).
Such characters generally have no offensive/defensive powers so I'm guessing they'd be of no interest to the average gamer unless the system allowed such capabilities as additions to standard adventuring professions.

Speaking as a 3e/3.5 player, my thought on Psionics has always been that they are muy bueno.   It's a power system that plays and feels very different from the standard Wizard/Cleric power set (at least in 3.5---3e had the problem of the Powers List being a ripoff of the PHB spells), and is actually more intuitive and smooth mechanically.

I like to have Psionics in my campaign as sort of a foreign (usually that's gonna be eastern) fighting style that's making inroads into the setting's mainstream culture.  Psionic Warriors will usually have a Yogic feel about them and be all about harnessing internal power/honing focus (similar to the idea of chi/ki espoused by Monks) as opposed to looking to the gods or the power of magic.

e:  Also, always had a crush on the iconic Psychic Warrior j/s

http://i.imgur.com/NJSblho.jpg

Of course it's a matter of taste & genre, and perception. Some observations, though...

Quote from: Simlasa;851300They read palms or tea leaves or cards or minds, look into crystal balls, find water with dowsing rods, discern truths with pendulums or dice... have prophetic dreams and visions come to them free of asking.

Note that these generally fall into social categories, i.e. they're "things" that have names and sometimes even arts that are developed. "She's got The Sight," or whatever. "Seventh son of a seventh son." There are folk theories about why people have these powers and where they come from. "He talks to spirits." In fictional settings, psi seems less of a cultural phenomenon and even if people recognize it widely, I think they perceive it more as a natural effect (e.g. of mutation or exposure to N-Rays or something).

QuoteFairy tales have loads of otherwise ordinary creatures and people who casually exhibit some extraordinary ability or imbue objects with singular powers without being formal witches or magicians.

I'm a bit of a loss to think of good, specific examples--particularly ones that haven't been "socially tamed" as I described above.

I love psionics. I love magic.

It's like ice-cream. I can do both flavors simultaneously.

Quote from: tenbones;851610I love psionics. I love magic.

It's like ice-cream. I can do both flavors simultaneously.

For me, unless it's a well designed part of the setting, like Dark Sun, it's like chocolate ice cream and a good steak, they're great apart, even after one another, but not together.

Quote from: Arminius;851425In fictional settings, psi seems less of a cultural phenomenon and even if people recognize it widely, I think they perceive it more as a natural effect (e.g. of mutation or exposure to N-Rays or something).

It depends on the fictional setting... but I do think that in a lot of older fantasy such powers, regardless of how they're called, are still thought of as natural... and magical... natural magic as opposed to learned magic.

QuoteI'm a bit of a loss to think of good, specific examples--particularly ones that haven't been "socially tamed" as I described above.

The one that pops to mind is from The Arabian Nights, 'The Talking Bird, The Singing Tree and The Golden Water'. There are lots of magical elements but none of them seem to involve wizards or spells... or 'psionics'... the magic just exists or shows up in the story as needed.
Brothers give their sister seemingly common items and on the spot claim those items will inform her in the event of their deaths, and they do... a dervish sits at the bottom of a haunted mountain handing out bowls that will guide anyone who throws them, rolling away towards their desire. None of the characters are established as magicians, all the items are ordinary until they're not.
The three spectacular items of the title are magical treasures but naturally occurring ones.
There's no attempt to say why or how the magic happens, it just does... and none of the characters question it, so it ends up feeling like it's just part of nature.

Keep in mind too that what someone calls magic one day, someone else is calling ESP tomorrow.

We have some water diviners in the family and they were called "water witches" and was considered magic. Now-a-days its called ESP.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;851665For me, unless it's a well designed part of the setting, like Dark Sun, it's like chocolate ice cream and a good steak, they're great apart, even after one another, but not together.

Agreed. For my Realms campaign I introduced Psionics as this "tenth" school and yet it did not conform to any of the known "rules" of Magic. I have a Mageocracy based around the various schools - so the advent of a "new" form of Magic was a big deal. It became a huge adventure leading to contact with the Githzerai and eventually led to an interdimensional war with the Githyanki and Illithid. The end result was the explanation for Psionics in my Realms.


So yeah - context is always king.

I am cleaning up Kathy's book collection last night and discover she has the whole Deryni series in hardback.

On a simmilar note I have the Many colored Land series by Julian May. Which pits people with psi powers against elves in the prehistoric past. Should have been a Torg cosm.

Quote from: Omega;851853On a simmilar note I have the Many colored Land series by Julian May. Which pits people with psi powers against elves in the prehistoric past. Should have been a Torg cosm.

Sounds like Lustria in Warhammer... ancient space frogs with weird powers fighting vikings and dark elves riding on dinosaurs.

Wasn't one of the Torg settings prehistoric?

Quote from: Simlasa;851862Sounds like Lustria in Warhammer... ancient space frogs with weird powers fighting vikings and dark elves riding on dinosaurs.

Wasn't one of the Torg settings prehistoric?

In this case people with psi travelling back in time and running into space elves who have even better psi, but refer to it as magic. Toss in some goblins with very powerful illusions, and something even worse with even better illusions. All squabbling. It was why they came to earth. So they could keep fighting eachother. Interesting premise.

Torg had the "Living Land" which was dinosaurs and the whole intense sensation religion. (And Lanala decomposing anything not natural. Ta-ta tech!)