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I read some comments in the vanilla fantasy thread regarding the place of Psionics in 'vanilla fantasy' that got me thinking.

I for one, have no problem with Psi in fantasy. I can think of a half dozen or so books that deal with this mix as if it were quite natural. Some good, some bad.  Generally Psi, or psionic elements are referred to in setting as Magic, or are part and parcel of magic, even alongside things that are most definitely not Psi as commonly understood.

Yet there is a very serious effort on the part of many Gamers to ignore or remove all vestiges of Psionics from the Fantasy Genre. In fact, inclusion of Psi might very well make a 'vanilla' setting into a 'weird setting' from some views.  What causes this?

If I may be so bold, I lay the blame squarely at the feet of D&D. For its long long history D&D has repeatedly made a hash of Psionics, making it 'that other magic' system in many cases, robbing it of any organic feeling, making it weird.

As time has gone on the Psi has been robbed more and more of it's distinctive feeling to become, literally Magic 2.0, complete with disitegration via green raybeam.


The issue, I think, is that D&D's various designers had a poor grasp of what Psionics 'is' and how to use that.  Psionics, for a non-existant thing, has a pretty well developed  body of science behind it.  Generations of writers have honed the abilities of psionists to a fine point, granting them more fantastic abilities as time goes on.  And in many ways Psionics can be indistinguishable from magic. Almost.


It is that last 'Almost' that makes all the difference in the world. To the layman Psi and magic are interchangeable, but game designers (and, yes, players) aren't quite laymen.  When Psi and magic share spell lists and functionality then Psi becomes an unnecessary secondary system to learn, and is often cut away like so much deadweight.

But Psi ISN"T magic. It shouldn't feel like magic to the 'psycher' anymore than Magic should feel like Psi to the Wizard.  

D&D grossly mishandled Psi, getting worse with each iteration, and as the biggest boy on the block has systemically destroyed the taste for Psi in a large number of gamers.




How would I have handled it?  Simple. Psi is inherent, unlike Magic it does not require study. Make it a feat, a collection of feats even, available to any class. Then make psychic classes prestige classes only, representing people with the talent who have chosen to focus on it more exclusively.  

More importantly: Strip away the magic touches. Psi is only visible in it's effects (or possibly to other psychics, but never as a green ray). Look at the traditional powers, TK, ESP, TP and grow those, rather than trying to make it flashier. Nothing says 'flashy' better then a levitating person tossing around a boulder the size of a house with the power of his mind alone...   Hell, I'd leave the body morphing alone too, its marginal at best (and I say this as a body morphing fan.. it just doesn't feel psychic enough... this is trauma surgery, folks, and morphing is malignant tissue now...)

And remove those powerpoints, they just don't work.  Want to limit it's power? Try something more organic

For me it is not so much of a mechanics thing as it is a flavor/something else to keep track of thing. In a supers game I'm all over it. In a space opera setting- I'm at least open to it if not really eager to play it.

It's like this.

Some people, you make 'em a ham, and they say, "Hey!  Clove!  Nice!"

Others, like me, they go, "Gaaah!  What the f-- CLOVE?!  Gaaah!  I mean, uh, good, uh, good ham, Mom."

*shrug*

And what's so wrong with body morphing? I personally attribute that *more* to psionics than to magic.

I don't normally do psionics, but the 3.5 campaign I play in has a strong pro-psionic bent.  I've found it surprisingly satisfying to have a system of kewl powers in play that isn't all about sleep and fireball.

If there were are psi system that made psi truely different than "magic" I might be interested. I'm not really all that big on Psi to begin with.

I think Psionics has a stigma largely inspired by, as you say, it's poor implementation in prior versions.

I think the current version is great. Lots of people rant that it's too much like the current magic system. That's what makes it work. Prior editions featured psionic powers that were so far departed from the spell level system that it failed to take advantage of the balancing effects of spell level, making it all too easy for characters to transcend the level of power associated with their level.

And I think more and more people are coming to realize that. Psionics, for D&D, is the "flexible spell point system" that many people are looking for in magic, and I hear of more and more people who Stop Worrying and Learn To Love the Psion.

I am diametrically oposed to notions of psionics being for SF. Psionics is magic by any fair definition. I lean hardish in my SF. Adding psionics to SF is basically adding fanasy elements to SF. It's more properly at home in fantasy AFAIAC. The "flava bashers" have a tendency to say how their favorite novel doesn't have psionics, but it's easy to name novels and authors whose powers are clearly psionic in nature, such as the Darkover books and Deryni books.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI am diametrically oposed to notions of psionics being for SF. Psionics is magic by any fair definition. I lean hardish in my SF. Adding psionics to SF is basically adding fanasy elements to SF. It's more properly at home in fantasy AFAIAC. The "flava bashers" have a tendency to say how their favorite novel doesn't have psionics, but it's easy to name novels and authors whose powers are clearly psionic in nature, such as the Darkover books and Deryni books.

I'll half assume that the "flava basher" thing was directed at me, but at the same time I suspect it was not.
Adding FTL to your SF or aliens, or a whole bunch of other things is adding fantasy elements as well. And in regards to someone's favorite novels not having psionics what difference does it make if Darkover (which btw has sf elements as well as fantasy tropes IIRC) or Deryni have it, if they are not said individuals cup of tea?

My favorite SF novel, however, Stars my Destination does have psionics as does my favorite SF movie AKIRA. And without psionics star wars doesn't really work either- not that I like star wars, mind you.

Anyway, I'm not of the one true way, or anything, I just like what I like.

Psionics: Just another form of magic, with a different name.  *shrug*

Quote from: AosI'll half assume that the "flava basher" thing was directed at me,

Nope, just a particular subset I run into here and there who preach "psionics does not belong in fantasy."

I didn't like psionics.

I decided to allow the 3.5 version in my current "back to basics" D&D game, and so far have been very, very impressed.  It's a good subsystem, well-designed and well-thought-out.

I treat it the same as magic, though.  First, there's a balance issue in D&D if you don't... unless you make your game a psionic campaign, that is, and incorporate psionics as a major feature rather than just a character option.

Second, both magic and psionics are basically doing the same thing - imposing your will on the world in a supernatural way.  I think it's silly to make a distinction between two ways of doing this.

-O

Quote from: obrynSecond, both magic and psionics are basically doing the same thing - imposing your will on the world in a supernatural way.  I think it's silly to make a distinction between two ways of doing this.

Yeah. But for me it's either psionics or magic. If I'm aiming for a more pseudo scientific feel I'll opt for psionics - which I did for my version of Dark Sun - otherwise it's magic.

Regards,
David R

I have always utterly despised psionics in almost all its forms, and not just in fantasy either.  The only two psionic systems I've seen that were even mildly good were the ones for Traveller T20 (which was just tolerable) and the one for CoC D20 (which was awesome, because using it was as much a potential way to get totally screwed as it was a help).

RPGpundit

Quote from: SpikeIf I may be so bold, I lay the blame squarely at the feet of D&D. For its long long history D&D has repeatedly made a hash of Psionics, making it 'that other magic' system in many cases, robbing it of any organic feeling, making it weird.

I think that's much of it but not all of it.  1e psionics was this thing where if you got lukcy, you had all these extra powers for free.  2e was interesting but wasn't as hammered out as magic so people found loopholes to instakill opponents when they were 5th level.  

It's always felt tacked on - you have to buy a whole other book and incorporate extra rules.  It might be better if mental powers were just another form of magic, on the same level as illusion and conjuration.

A nice take on psionics is the Psychics Handbook, which is skill and feat based.  It obviously influenced True20's magic system.

I like the psionics and supernatural mix in Conspiracy X (v1.0), but as the original poster said D&D's handling of Psionics has put me off psionics in fantasy completely.

Didn't stick even with some Dragon articles. Don't use it in fantasy (unless MA/Gamma World counts both as fantasy & having psionics) but do in Sci-Fi. Tekumel has psychic magic but it's really sorcery vs. the chanting & components type ritual magic. Never read the Deryni or Darkover books.

I don't mind semi-mythical stuff like foresight, scrying, and impressions as inherent powers, perhaps moreso than as spells or prayers. So I don't mind the concept, just haven't found the spark yet.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe only two psionic systems I've seen that were even mildly good were the ones for Traveller T20 (which was just tolerable)

It worked ok for a Third Imperium character but not as good for say a Zhodani or if you wanted something like PsiCorp where psionics isn't outlawed and use subject to fear and lynchings. Objects of the Mind (http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/catalog/pview.pl?action=view&stocknum=ta0005&h=header_catalog&s=) has a Psionicist class & the Traveller’s Guide playtest draft (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Moot) had another go at it and slight tweaks to Psionics. IIRC Still geared towards the Third Imperium view of Psionics, a bit clunky in power selection, and PSI got drained too fast.

I recently introduced Psionics into my kitchen-sink Drow campaign (yes, I cringed too when my players suggested that). I don't have a problem with the system at all, it would be a good replacement for Vancian magic. It's a bit bothersome, that it exists parallel to normal magic and the names of the disciplines seem a little too sci-fi at times (and I won't even mention "ectoplasm" in my campaign, for fear of Ghostbusters jokes).

But in the high-magic Underdark, with Mind Flayers lurking around the corner and all kinds of weird creatures it certainly worked. Even the player who objects strongly to Psi-rules has found acceptance in his heart...

I never had problems with Mentalism in Rolemaster, too.

Back in the 30s and 40s there was a parapsychologist by the name of Rhine; founder of the Rhine institute. Professor Rhine (as he styled himself) worked with a number of people on parapsychological (aka, psychic abilities) work. What would later become known as, "extrasensory perception" (ESP).

One of the people he worked with was magazine editor (Astounding), John W. Campbell. John was a civil engineer by training, and under his own name and the pen name of Don A. Stuart a noted science fiction writer. A/-o a huge fantasy fan and big on technology.

John thought that psychic abilities were neat, and that proving they really existed would be keen. He also held to the belief that if psychic abilities really worked, they would abide by physical laws, and could be affected by the proper application of technology.

Enter Electronics.

Electronics were big back then. Radar, radio, and electronic circuitry were heavily discussed in the tech and engineering communities. And among science fiction fans. Campbell got an idea, to combine electronics and ESP. Psychic abilities augmented by electronics. Psionics in other words. (Rhine later claimed to have coined the word. This caused a rift between him and Campbell, aided by Rhine's troubles with basic honesty.)

Now John had his enthusiasms. Electronics, space travel, fantasy, Dianetics (he playtested Dianetics 1st edition), and psionics. In the 60s he started pushing psionics heavily in his magazine, now known as Analog. You wanted to get published in Analog you got a big boost if you included a psychic ability or two in your story. Dune, Known Space, any number of other SFnal settings would be very different if not for John's psychic fixation. And somewhere along the way "psionic" became conflated with "psychic".

John died in 1971 of a cerebral aneurysm. In 1972 Gygax and Arneson started collaborating on D&D. But psionics didn't enter the picture until, I think, 1976, when Eldritch Wizardry came out. As Gary later revealed, the very first version of psionics in D&D was an incoherent, mechanically crappy mess nobody but the creators knew how to use, and he suspected they were making it up as they went along. The version in 3.0/3.5 is the cleanest anybody's ever done, but it still isn't really integrated into the core.

For Dangerous Journeys Gary decided to call psionics, "Psychogenic (mind created) Abilities". He also integrated Psychogenic Abilities into the core system. The PA sub-system could use some further development, but as-is it can be  used fairly easily with some JM imrprovisation.

And that's a brief look at psionics in RPGs.

For me, and I may be hitting the same nail all over, Psionics differs hugely from magic in a number of ways.

Magic is fundamentally the drawing upon of forces external to the user, shaping them according to ritual and formula to accomplish things. Magic can be a science, where anyone can apply existing metaphysical laws to accomplish the same effect, or ART where only gifted users can do it, and the ritual changes according to the needs of the user.  I tend to prefer the first idea for my magic but hardly to the exclusion of all else.


Psionics, fundamentally, is the power of the self. The psychic is able to affect the world around him by the power of his mind alone.  This sort of thing suggests that the self is external to the physical structures of the body. Psychic stuff can't just 'do anything', unlike many forms of magic.  Arguably everyone could have some measure of psychic ability, and the real difference is how much they nurture it, or you could have only a few rare gifted individuals while the rest of the population is essentially 'mundane'.  Regardless, rather than learning rituals and formulas, rather than looking for places or artifacts of power, the psychic grows in strength as people's bodies do, by practice and development.    

Traditionally psychic powers are limited to telekinesis (with subsets like pyrokinesis and cryokinesis), Telepathy (including dreamwalking, and possibly astral projection... though psychic astral projection is not related to the astral plane of D&D lore), ESP including Pre and post cognition, distance viewing and pychometry.  If you like to mix things up a bit more, some include teleportation (powerful psi) and Prana Bindu, or controlling the biology via the power of the mind (weak, common psi, and NOT the same thing as body morphing).

While harder to balance, Psi in a level based system is not impossible to scale comparable to magic.  Psychics either have an ability or the do not, and their use is more unlimited than spells.  Balancing could be accomplished by linking strength of an ability to level, and most psychic abilities should have a skill linked to them, representing practice and control of the ability.  

To make psychic powers more compatable with D&D all together they should be made more of a core part of the game. Indeed, into the players guide with thee, or get thee out of my backyard.  

One of the problems often heard about balancing Psychic stuff in D&D is the fifth level character with Disintigrate, which is a very high level spell for mages.  I see this as a non-issue. Disintigrate doesn't really belong in a psychic's bag of tricks.  Certainly not complete with green rays shooting from the eyes or what have you.

The original source material for 'fantasy' – myth and legend, fairy tale, that sort of thing – has strange and otherworldly powers; sometimes knowable by humans and sometimes not. It doesn't have 'Magic' on one hand and 'Psionics' on the other. That's my reason for rejecting psionics in fantasy; my fantasy tends towards the primary sources.

Sword-&-sorcery is a bit different, being essentially a 20th-century form. I guess that to the extent your fantasy stems more from S&S than legend, scientifically-handwavable mental powers may be appropriate.

Quote from: RPGPunditI have always utterly despised psionics in almost all its forms, and not just in fantasy either.  The only two psionic systems I've seen that were even mildly good were the ones for Traveller T20 (which was just tolerable) and the one for CoC D20 (which was awesome, because using it was as much a potential way to get totally screwed as it was a help).

RPGpundit

I'm with you on that, but I've always been a big fan of having magic/psi come with some sort of price, vanilla fantasy or not.

Quote from: obrynSecond, both magic and psionics are basically doing the same thing - imposing your will on the world in a supernatural way.  I think it's silly to make a distinction between two ways of doing this.

It's funny - I always felt the same about Divine magic.  Does it really matter from where the magic is coming?  And that led me to feel the same about Psionics. You have an attempt to cause something to happen that otherwise would not occur (in "standard" physics, etc.).

The biggest problem I see with this approach is that it could make them all seem too generic, reduced to the same set of capabilities.

Quote from: RPGPundit....and the one for CoC D20 (which was awesome, because using it was as much a potential way to get totally screwed as it was a help).

That aspect is what I find sorely missing in so very many RPG magic systems.

Anyway, I'm going to lay a lot of Psi's bad rap squarely at the feet of AD&D. That was one fubar sub-system they put together. It's taken, what, 15 years and a decently put together system for D&D psionics to start dragging itself out from underneath that deadweight. :/

Rolemaster originally integrated psychic powers as mentalism, a third realm of in addition to divine (clerical) magic and magician magic.  They tended to focus on psychicy stuff, but there were no major flavour differences, just a different form of magic.

That's very different from what Spike's talking about, and 'm not sure that psychic powers - built in line with modern conceptions of what psychics can do - do fit in a fantasy world.  I absolutely agree with all your suggestions for making them distinctive, and would add stuff like having them powered by the will and tiring to activate, a narrow range of powers overall and a much narrower range of powers in the hands of any given psychic than is the case with magic-  get rid of anything magicy, and get rid of anything psychicy from magic.  But once you've done all that, and created a distinctive identity for psychic powers, I'm not sure that what you've ended up with is the kind of thin that fits in vanilla fantasy.  It just strikes me as out of whack with the way the supernatural works in most fiction.

The thing, lacemaker, is that numerous authors HAVE managed to keep psychic stuff in fantasy worlds, as distinct from magic (even calling it magic sometimes) and pulled it off quite excellently. Maybe not everyone's cuppa but it works.

I agree with the Divine Magic comment as well. While it was smart to make divine magic less 'attack' and 'magic' magic less 'healing' it was only a minor step. Preists and clerics shouldn't be studying spells from their gods, and casting spells.  There IS some fiction support for this, true, but most people would probably be more impressed if the miraculous felt more, you know, miraculous.

Psionics in sword and sorcery, absolutely.

Psionics in trad fantasy, no.

For me it's a genre thing, psionics were often there in s&s stuff but in Tolkien derived fantasy it feels very out of place to me.

Bodymorphing is a no-no to me, psionics in fantasy were based on 1930s ideas of how psychic powers might work and bodymorphing was no part of that.  It's as out of genre as a fireball IMO.

Quote from: lacemakerBut once you've done all that, and created a distinctive identity for psychic powers, I'm not sure that what you've ended up with is the kind of thin that fits in vanilla fantasy.

I agree with this essentially, the only thing missing is that I think it does fit rather well with pulp fantasy, but that is not a genre that's really around so much anymore.

Quote from: RPGPunditI have always utterly despised psionics in almost all its forms, and not just in fantasy either.  The only two psionic systems I've seen that were even mildly good were the ones for Traveller T20 (which was just tolerable) and the one for CoC D20 (which was awesome, because using it was as much a potential way to get totally screwed as it was a help).

RPGpundit

CoC d20 psionics were indeed very good, in-genre, low key, mechanically well implemented and true to period ideas of what could be done.

Great bit of mechanics. I am not a huge fan of CoC d20, but those particular rules were excellent and a really good addition to the game.  I would love to see a BRP conversion for them :D

I remember some Dragon articles back in the day about how to break AD&D 2's advancement system with correct application of the Psionicist class.

One of my players also managed to break an AD&D campaign (thankfully not one of mine,) in half with his psionicist, reportedly by using flight and mind lasers to eradicate any enemy force under battalion strength.

Warped as both experiences are by the weight of memory, they've been the reason I have never, ever-ever-ever-ever-ever, considered psionics a valid PC tool.

That said, d20 CoC's ESP is too cool for school.

Quote from: mattormegI'm with you on that, but I've always been a big fan of having magic/psi come with some sort of price, vanilla fantasy or not.

Its one of the things that makes Warhammer's magic system so awesome.

RPGPundit

There are a few other genre's of fantasy that do work well with psi. Very commonly, and publicly in teh RPG community now, is the 'girly lit' fantasy of Blue Rose.


However: I have a strong issue with using Genre's to define stuff in any but the loosest terms. Tolkien, for example, wasn't writing 'trad fantasy', he was spinning a yarn about epic, mythic heroes. Other than perhaps a nod to 'fantasy' as a broad catagory (thus magic, elves and powerful artifacts), I doubt he had a list of tropes and 'do' and 'do not' elements. I suspect most of the better authors write/wrote without worrying about what genre they were supposed to be working in.

I've had this argument before in regards to the line between cyberpunk and transhuman literature, I'm willing to butt heads with you on various 'genres' of fantasy...:p