I read some comments in the vanilla fantasy thread regarding the place of Psionics in 'vanilla fantasy' that got me thinking.

I for one, have no problem with Psi in fantasy. I can think of a half dozen or so books that deal with this mix as if it were quite natural. Some good, some bad.  Generally Psi, or psionic elements are referred to in setting as Magic, or are part and parcel of magic, even alongside things that are most definitely not Psi as commonly understood.

Yet there is a very serious effort on the part of many Gamers to ignore or remove all vestiges of Psionics from the Fantasy Genre. In fact, inclusion of Psi might very well make a 'vanilla' setting into a 'weird setting' from some views.  What causes this?

If I may be so bold, I lay the blame squarely at the feet of D&D. For its long long history D&D has repeatedly made a hash of Psionics, making it 'that other magic' system in many cases, robbing it of any organic feeling, making it weird.

As time has gone on the Psi has been robbed more and more of it's distinctive feeling to become, literally Magic 2.0, complete with disitegration via green raybeam.


The issue, I think, is that D&D's various designers had a poor grasp of what Psionics 'is' and how to use that.  Psionics, for a non-existant thing, has a pretty well developed  body of science behind it.  Generations of writers have honed the abilities of psionists to a fine point, granting them more fantastic abilities as time goes on.  And in many ways Psionics can be indistinguishable from magic. Almost.


It is that last 'Almost' that makes all the difference in the world. To the layman Psi and magic are interchangeable, but game designers (and, yes, players) aren't quite laymen.  When Psi and magic share spell lists and functionality then Psi becomes an unnecessary secondary system to learn, and is often cut away like so much deadweight.

But Psi ISN"T magic. It shouldn't feel like magic to the 'psycher' anymore than Magic should feel like Psi to the Wizard.  

D&D grossly mishandled Psi, getting worse with each iteration, and as the biggest boy on the block has systemically destroyed the taste for Psi in a large number of gamers.




How would I have handled it?  Simple. Psi is inherent, unlike Magic it does not require study. Make it a feat, a collection of feats even, available to any class. Then make psychic classes prestige classes only, representing people with the talent who have chosen to focus on it more exclusively.  

More importantly: Strip away the magic touches. Psi is only visible in it's effects (or possibly to other psychics, but never as a green ray). Look at the traditional powers, TK, ESP, TP and grow those, rather than trying to make it flashier. Nothing says 'flashy' better then a levitating person tossing around a boulder the size of a house with the power of his mind alone...   Hell, I'd leave the body morphing alone too, its marginal at best (and I say this as a body morphing fan.. it just doesn't feel psychic enough... this is trauma surgery, folks, and morphing is malignant tissue now...)

And remove those powerpoints, they just don't work.  Want to limit it's power? Try something more organic

For me it is not so much of a mechanics thing as it is a flavor/something else to keep track of thing. In a supers game I'm all over it. In a space opera setting- I'm at least open to it if not really eager to play it.

It's like this.

Some people, you make 'em a ham, and they say, "Hey!  Clove!  Nice!"

Others, like me, they go, "Gaaah!  What the f-- CLOVE?!  Gaaah!  I mean, uh, good, uh, good ham, Mom."

*shrug*

And what's so wrong with body morphing? I personally attribute that *more* to psionics than to magic.

I don't normally do psionics, but the 3.5 campaign I play in has a strong pro-psionic bent.  I've found it surprisingly satisfying to have a system of kewl powers in play that isn't all about sleep and fireball.

If there were are psi system that made psi truely different than "magic" I might be interested. I'm not really all that big on Psi to begin with.

I think Psionics has a stigma largely inspired by, as you say, it's poor implementation in prior versions.

I think the current version is great. Lots of people rant that it's too much like the current magic system. That's what makes it work. Prior editions featured psionic powers that were so far departed from the spell level system that it failed to take advantage of the balancing effects of spell level, making it all too easy for characters to transcend the level of power associated with their level.

And I think more and more people are coming to realize that. Psionics, for D&D, is the "flexible spell point system" that many people are looking for in magic, and I hear of more and more people who Stop Worrying and Learn To Love the Psion.

I am diametrically oposed to notions of psionics being for SF. Psionics is magic by any fair definition. I lean hardish in my SF. Adding psionics to SF is basically adding fanasy elements to SF. It's more properly at home in fantasy AFAIAC. The "flava bashers" have a tendency to say how their favorite novel doesn't have psionics, but it's easy to name novels and authors whose powers are clearly psionic in nature, such as the Darkover books and Deryni books.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI am diametrically oposed to notions of psionics being for SF. Psionics is magic by any fair definition. I lean hardish in my SF. Adding psionics to SF is basically adding fanasy elements to SF. It's more properly at home in fantasy AFAIAC. The "flava bashers" have a tendency to say how their favorite novel doesn't have psionics, but it's easy to name novels and authors whose powers are clearly psionic in nature, such as the Darkover books and Deryni books.

I'll half assume that the "flava basher" thing was directed at me, but at the same time I suspect it was not.
Adding FTL to your SF or aliens, or a whole bunch of other things is adding fantasy elements as well. And in regards to someone's favorite novels not having psionics what difference does it make if Darkover (which btw has sf elements as well as fantasy tropes IIRC) or Deryni have it, if they are not said individuals cup of tea?

My favorite SF novel, however, Stars my Destination does have psionics as does my favorite SF movie AKIRA. And without psionics star wars doesn't really work either- not that I like star wars, mind you.

Anyway, I'm not of the one true way, or anything, I just like what I like.

Psionics: Just another form of magic, with a different name.  *shrug*

Quote from: AosI'll half assume that the "flava basher" thing was directed at me,

Nope, just a particular subset I run into here and there who preach "psionics does not belong in fantasy."

I didn't like psionics.

I decided to allow the 3.5 version in my current "back to basics" D&D game, and so far have been very, very impressed.  It's a good subsystem, well-designed and well-thought-out.

I treat it the same as magic, though.  First, there's a balance issue in D&D if you don't... unless you make your game a psionic campaign, that is, and incorporate psionics as a major feature rather than just a character option.

Second, both magic and psionics are basically doing the same thing - imposing your will on the world in a supernatural way.  I think it's silly to make a distinction between two ways of doing this.

-O

Quote from: obrynSecond, both magic and psionics are basically doing the same thing - imposing your will on the world in a supernatural way.  I think it's silly to make a distinction between two ways of doing this.

Yeah. But for me it's either psionics or magic. If I'm aiming for a more pseudo scientific feel I'll opt for psionics - which I did for my version of Dark Sun - otherwise it's magic.

Regards,
David R

I have always utterly despised psionics in almost all its forms, and not just in fantasy either.  The only two psionic systems I've seen that were even mildly good were the ones for Traveller T20 (which was just tolerable) and the one for CoC D20 (which was awesome, because using it was as much a potential way to get totally screwed as it was a help).

RPGpundit

Quote from: SpikeIf I may be so bold, I lay the blame squarely at the feet of D&D. For its long long history D&D has repeatedly made a hash of Psionics, making it 'that other magic' system in many cases, robbing it of any organic feeling, making it weird.

I think that's much of it but not all of it.  1e psionics was this thing where if you got lukcy, you had all these extra powers for free.  2e was interesting but wasn't as hammered out as magic so people found loopholes to instakill opponents when they were 5th level.  

It's always felt tacked on - you have to buy a whole other book and incorporate extra rules.  It might be better if mental powers were just another form of magic, on the same level as illusion and conjuration.

A nice take on psionics is the Psychics Handbook, which is skill and feat based.  It obviously influenced True20's magic system.

I like the psionics and supernatural mix in Conspiracy X (v1.0), but as the original poster said D&D's handling of Psionics has put me off psionics in fantasy completely.