Proper sf can't get no love

blakkie · February 11, 2007, 08:15:22 PM

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYes, but Shadowrun is the bastard offspring of a deformed goat and a mentally retarded pig.

The setting is cute in a Cabbage Patch Doll way.

Even if you take out all the magic you can still play it dumb and sleep soundly at night. SF done dumb! Whoooot! :cool: Of course it doesn't stop turds from nitpicking the hell out of it, but such is the bane of SF.

QuoteThe problem isn't rules... it's setting. The problems people have highlighted with THS aren't related to GURPS.

I just don't like GURPS. I like THS by and large.

From what I gather the problem they are describing is a setting/rules disjunction. The suggestion text quoted on how to implement the setting isn't supported well by the rules they chose. Changing the rules can alliveate a lot of that.

Dominus Nox · February 12, 2007, 02:39:50 AM

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckThe word you're looking for is boredom.

The closest I want to the kind of reality you're discussing is "after 38 hours of boredom standing watch on the highway, you hear the approaching sounds of helicopter rotors".

Or "after 18 weeks in cryo you awake to the ugly face of your drill sergeant, cigar already in his mouth intoning "what are you waiting for, breakfast in bed? another glorious day in the corps..."

But again- I think games that try to cut out things players LIKE to do in games, like space combats in sci fi or dungeons in fantasy, are doomed to fail.

It's basically telling the players "I know you like to do it, but it's just not realistic enough".

That's when I head for the next gaming table. And Ive seen plenty of sci-fi games try this and plenty of reviewers who expect realism over fun, even when doing so makes absolutely no sense.

When I wrote an adventure for Dragonstar, part of it involved flying through a dangerous asteroid field. A reviewer pinged the module for how UNREALISTIC that was. In Dragonstar.

I'll agree you were wronged on the dragonstar bit. I suppose this guy would have bitched re the asteroid scene in "TESB" so just ignore him.

Balbinus · February 12, 2007, 05:21:26 AM

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThe roots of THS aren't Hard SF though... they're post-cyberpunk. Why is cyberpunk easily playable while post-cyberpunk isn't?

Post cyberpunk has a robust social order in which things like the police and government services work fairly well. Thus PCs have less autonomy and more chance of getting caught.

Cyberpunk the police and government are failing, PCs can do pretty much what they like and likely won't get caught.

Simple as that really.

Balbinus · February 12, 2007, 05:25:04 AM

CD,

I may well be wrong that nobody is playing it, I can't be sure obviously, it's just my impression.

As for the setting, certainly you can't give the whole thing in one demo, but you could at least hit a few key issues and embrace the setting. A demo set in the Europan conflict or in Rotterdam would have been much more to the point.

Gurps is a dreadful fit, but I think that's a side issue. Gurps doesn't work because it is points balanced, and in a setting where you can download to a new body every day that just doesn't work. Frankly, it's noticeable that the setting doesn't include temporary leases for bodies which is a really obvious application, my bet is because that would make keeping track of points insane.

Anthrobot · February 12, 2007, 07:18:57 AM

Quote from: Mr. Analytical...says the man with the Star Trek avatar.

Its just an avatar, Mr Analytical.Get over it:) .Even Trek gravitated towards some hard sf ideas, such as nanomites and the technical manual was written in a way that showed some knowledge of the boundaries of science.

Balbinus · February 12, 2007, 07:19:52 AM

Quote from: Consonant DudeI know it wasn't heavy-gear fantastic but I am surprised you include Jovian Chronicles in this category. Maybe I don't remember the game well.

Possibly I don't, but as I recall it was basically a fairly straight hard sf game set in our own solar system. The mecha weren't really, they were armoured vacc suits used in combat and were ultimately both reasonably credible in the setting and a small part of the game. Calling them mecha was more marketing than anything else, but their presence caused people not to notice that it was actually a fairly hard hard sf game.

Caesar Slaad · February 12, 2007, 08:47:27 AM

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuckSeriously though, Im not sure what it was about that adventure but it was nitpicked to hell.

People even went so far as to pick at my use of the word "weathered" to describe the landing area, since there's no weather in space. I guess worn would have been more exact but I didnt realize it was a blue-book text.

I may be throwing stones in a glass house here, but some would-be reviewers pick the most superficial BS to base an opinion on. It's like they have to find something, anything to bash about a product.

Wasn't it jeremy who was throwing a hissyfit over Freeport because if you look hard enough, you can find an "easter egg" in the form of a pokemon in one of the pictures? Sheesh. :rolleyes:

blakkie · February 12, 2007, 10:44:49 AM

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI may be throwing stones in a glass house here, but some would-be reviewers pick the most superficial BS to base an opinion on. It's like they have to find something, anything to bash about a product.

I think of it as the Pundit Syndrome. No, not named after theRPGsite's own irrepressible rascal but observations long predating his moniker.

RPGObjects_chuck · February 12, 2007, 10:54:42 AM

Quote from: Caesar SlaadI may be throwing stones in a glass house here, but some would-be reviewers pick the most superficial BS to base an opinion on. It's like they have to find something, anything to bash about a product.

Wasn't it jeremy who was throwing a hissyfit over Freeport because if you look hard enough, you can find an "easter egg" in the form of a pokemon in one of the pictures? Sheesh. :rolleyes:

Yeah. I find Jeremy to be a fair reviewer myself. He can obsess over small stuff, but he usually doesnt let it affect the score, so he's just pointing out stuff that bothers him.

Wil · February 12, 2007, 12:48:06 PM

Quote from: BalbinusPossibly I don't, but as I recall it was basically a fairly straight hard sf game set in our own solar system. The mecha weren't really, they were armoured vacc suits used in combat and were ultimately both reasonably credible in the setting and a small part of the game. Calling them mecha was more marketing than anything else, but their presence caused people not to notice that it was actually a fairly hard hard sf game.

No, in JC they're mecha. It's just that like you pointed out they are a fairly small part of the setting and, if anything, humanoid robots make no more or less sense in a zero-gravity environment than anything else. They are used in ground combat, but that's more of a nod towards Gundam than anything.

What's interesting is that originally JC's exo-armors were supposed to be not-quite humanoid and had some interesting features like large wing-like solar sails. Somewhere they started to veer more towards Gundam-esque designs. You can see some concept art here: http://www.vectorsphere.com/resources/conceptart/JC.htm

PaulChapman · February 12, 2007, 02:12:11 PM

Quote from: BalbinusI may well be wrong that nobody is playing it, I can't be sure obviously, it's just my impression.

Given that almost 500 people have bought GURPS Transhuman Space: Changing Times, somebody's playing it.

Quote from: BalbinusAs for the setting, certainly you can't give the whole thing in one demo, but you could at least hit a few key issues and embrace the setting.

Check out page 3 of the Changing Times preview -- that's a one page summary of the setting.

Quote from: BalbinusGurps is a dreadful fit, but I think that's a side issue. Gurps doesn't work because it is points balanced, and in a setting where you can download to a new body every day that just doesn't work.

Yeah, that's why most THS GMs tend to ignore point totals after character creation.

Kyle Aaron · February 12, 2007, 04:47:49 PM

Quote from: PaulChapmanGiven that almost 500 people have bought GURPS Transhuman Space: Changing Times, somebody's playing it.

Unfortunately, sales do not indicate games played. Many gamers are collectors, they just like to have stuff. Many more gamers are readers, they like to read books even if they're never going to run any game with them.

Spike · February 12, 2007, 05:07:16 PM

Quote from: Erik BoielleMy personal current hate on is for the stupid fucking braindead cunts who complain about Warhammer 40K not being realistic, or that Games Workshops books tend to be War Porn.

DIE YOU DICKLESS PRATS! THATS WHAT THEY MAKE YOU STUPID, STUPID FUCK!

My name is Spike and...

I support this message.

Dominus Nox · February 12, 2007, 06:21:50 PM

Quote from: AnthrobotIts just an avatar, Mr Analytical.Get over it:) .Even Trek gravitated towards some hard sf ideas, such as nanomites and the technical manual was written in a way that showed some knowledge of the boundaries of science.

OT had a lot of hard science for it's time. Hell, antimatter power was pretty damn good for the time.

flyingmice · February 12, 2007, 10:16:20 PM

Quote from: SpikeMy name is Spike and...

I support this message.

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Oooh yeah!

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