By proper sf I mean sf which is hard or semi so, sf lacking magical elements or WWII dogfights or mystic powers.

You know, the kind of sf that actually sells pretty well still in bookstores.

Ken McLeod, Alistair Reynolds, Iain M Banks, Charles Stross, the guy who wrote that series in which the dead come back (which admittedly was pretty mystical), Stephen Baxter, Greg Egan, those guys.

What they have in common is that they write hard sf, or at least mostly hard sf with a handful of softer elements like ftl.  And they get no love in gaming.

Other than the broadly unplayable THS, and the now defunct Blue Planet, and the equally defunct Jovian Chronicles, this stuff just don't get the love.

Now, IMO that's because it takes work.  There's a lack of kewl powerz, the players (not the characters) need to understand the setting and how it works, many traditional plots simply don't function.

Jumping the PCs in an alley doesn't work so well if they simply upload their consciousness by satellite to get away.

So, for me it fails for being too difficult for players to get their heads round, too much work for GMs who need to think up new plots and not use the old plots that work in every other game and for lacking the kewl powerz beloved by today's kiddies.  But maybe there are other reasons, what do you think?

I think it gets love, just not in print so much and not in the mainstream.

My 100 SF Adventure Seeds sells the best (after Hentacle) across every PDF site out of my products. There's demand out there, definately. Morrigan Press' Terran Trade Authority RPG is pretty fly too and seems to be doing OK.

How much of that is nostalgia I don't know.

I think it's because gamers are hooked on shit fantasy.

Fantasy is all about familiarity and escapism and not asking oneself too many difficult questions.  There's so little variation between fantasy settings and novels because fantasy fans get confused, angry and violent if they have to encounter any new settings.

However, modern SF (especially literary SF) is all about engaging with new ideas and doing things differently.  In fantasy if your book resembles something that everyone has read then that's a sign that you're doing something right... in SF it's a sign that you're doing something wrong.

It's not limited to gamers though, fantasy outsells SF pretty much 10 to 1.

Isn't old Traveller sort of a hard SF game? I guess it tends to also become a game about tramp freighters or military squads, but...

Quote from: BalbinusBut maybe there are other reasons, what do you think?

Besides the ones you mentioned, I can't think of any. I've been trying to get a hard SF alien game of the ground. Besides all the technical aspects of hard sf - which I think adds atmosphere to the game - I can't seem to humanize the whole setting and it's set in contemporary times!

Regards,
David R

Familiarity is easy, engaging with new ideas not so much.

People generally don't want to work for their escapism, which is fair enough.  Any decent sf would require the players, not just the characters, to understand the setting and how it worked.  For most people that's too much like homework.

Shit fantasy requires no thought at all, which is it's USP.

Same for books, fat fantasy requires no thought, it's phatic fiction to use that wonderful phrase.  Decent sf requires that you think, which is unappealing to a great many people.

Quote from: CalithenaIsn't old Traveller sort of a hard SF game? I guess it tends to also become a game about tramp freighters or military squads, but...

Yes and no, it's out of date hard sf.  Hard for the 1970s, but it doesn't take into account the way the genre has changed over the last 30 years nor how our understanding of the universe has changed since then.

Cold Space/FTL Now is my best selling game series, and it's quite hard. StarCluster 2 is hardish classic SF, in the vein of Niven, Brin, and Cherryh, and it's my second best seller, very close to Cold Space. My fantasy game sold diddly. Blood Games sold OK, but nothing extraordinary. In Harm's Way has sold very well, but not like Cold Space. The less powers I make available, the better my games sell.

-clash

Traveller isn't HARD SF.  It's golden age traditional modernist SF.  Hard SF is Greg Egan or Stephen Baxter or Peter Watts (I warmly recommend Blindsight BTW), it's exploring scientific theories through fiction.  Traveller just isn't Star Wars, it's not even mundane SF as there's FTL in it.

The other thing is that, Traveller really doesn't demand much thought.  Anyone who has seen or read any SF should be able to cope with Traveller.  It's space ships and aliens and battles... as far as the intellectual work necessary to buy into it is required, it's hardly Philip K. Dick.

I think the problem is that ANY setting that isn't fantasy requires some thought... even if it's "oh wait, i can't send them to the old magician's haunted tower, there are no magicians" and as such gamers stay away from it.

While I would love it if gamers went out and played games based on literary SF, I think that the way things are now, there's about as much chance of them running RPGs based on the plays of Ibsen.

I'm glad to hear that your SF games sell well Clash, but I think that's because there hasn't been a new mainstream SF RPG published in the last 5 years at least.  There's what... Jovian Chronicles and THS?  are those the last ones?

I said out of date hard sf because, by earlier uses of the term, it was hard sf.  On its release it was a hard sf rpg, it just isn't one any more as the genre has moved on.

Otherwise, quite.  I routinely see people struggling with the idea of historical rpgs because they can't work out how to run a plot without magic being present.  That said, it's not as if many books have gm advice that actually helps people develop those skills.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI'm glad to hear that your SF games sell well Clash, but I think that's because there hasn't been a new mainstream SF RPG published in the last 5 years at least. There's what... Jovian Chronicles and THS? are those the last ones?

Bulldogs!, Splicers, Traveller d20, HardNova ][, Nebuleon, Burning Empires...and that's just off the top of my head. (I think there's always room for more, though!) I think Clash's games sell well more because they're easy to pick up, are written in an engaging, friendly manner, and have plenty of fun ideas. Just my $0.02.

Traveller D20 or Traveller Gurps don't count as new games though, do they?

I'm sorry I posted anything, actually, Zachary. I think they're talking about some Brit definition of SF that doesn't include what we think of as SF. The concept that Traveller isn't even proper SF because it had FTL was the clue. "Proper SF" is apparently ultra hard Brit SF. I knew the definition of Hard SF had moved on, but I didn't realize the definition of SF itself had become so very narrow. Apologies, Mr. A and Balbinus! If I could remove my post I would.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceI'm sorry I posted anything, actually, Zachary. I think they're talking about some Brit definition of SF that doesn't include what we think of as SF. The concept that Traveller isn't even proper SF because it had FTL was the clue. "Proper SF" is apparently ultra hard Brit SF. I knew the definition of Hard SF had moved on, but I didn't realize the definition of SF itself had become so very narrow. Apologies, Mr. A and Balbinus! If I could remove my post I would.

-clash

Proper sf is just a term from another thread which sparked this one, which is why I coined a definition in the opening post.  I don't actually think that the only proper sf is the sf that fits that definition, but I wanted to use the same term as the other thread to keep that linkage.

That said, Cold Space is IMO plainly hard sf, or if not certainly mostly hard sf.  It only has one gimme.  Starcluster 2 I think is moderately hard sf, very much in the CJ Cherryh line which I also think is moderately hard sf.

Incidentally, I don't see a value judgement personally in hardness or lack thereof.  Being harder does not mean being better.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalTraveller D20 or Traveller Gurps don't count as new games though, do they?

Depends on the grognard you ask.
 
@Clash:  I'm not familiar enough with a lot of Brit SF to make any sort of call.  I will submit I always considered Cold Space pretty hard SF, and SC2 pretty much up there as well.