This is a super abstract question so I hope I can frame it correctly.

When reading a book a large part of the enjoyment is figuring out how the world works. When you start, you don't know. As time goes on, the picture gets clearer, and maybe at some point there's a big reveal and you discover that something which you thought was real, isn't.

In a role playing game, the players might read the books or get an explanation from the GM, so there isn't much mystery about how the world works. You can walk around and discover things on a map - which is really fun - but you already know if there's a pagan pantheon, a godless universe, distant places, a shadow realm, etc.

Is there any game system that accommodates a wide variety of cosmologies such that at the start of play, the players don't actually know what the universe is really like? Sure, they know what their own characters' think, but the truth could be, and likely is, something completely different. This way, quests can resolve around not just capturing McGuffins of Power or defeating Big Bad, but also learning about the universe. This McGuffin doesn't really do anything, except that it's a piece of a map of the world's cosmology... a slice of heaven, or hell, or whatever.

I admit, in posing this question I'm conflating "cosmology" with "how things work" - I hope people can see what I'm hinting towards.

Anyway, does anything like this exist? How might you go about designing it?

Many RPGs can be played that way. D&D often is with the players not knowing even whats over the horizon for one reason or another. They set fourth adventuring not even knowing what most or possibly any monsters are. Possibly not even knowing of magic past what little they have access to. If even that.

Some space RPGs with a large open exploration area can work that way too. You know some things. But theres alot of alien worlds out there. That could go as far as not knowing much about your known fellow aliens.

Call of Cthulhu is another one. The PCs start out knowing only the mundane world. And eventually wish they had stayed ignorant of the cosmic horrors out there.

And of course theres Metamorphosis Alpha and Gamma World. The PCs sometimes start near the stone age and have to puzzle out even the most basic of modern tools. Super science gadgets might as well be magic.

The premise for Emergent takes it to the extreme. Your character wakes up knowing practically nothing in a nearly featureless room.

This is a grumble I've had with a number of GMs... they have the knowledge of what is 'true' and can't keep it in their pants.
 
Our Earthdawn GM was pretty great... EXCEPT for his penchant for telling us all the secrets and showing us maps that were far more accurate than our PCs should ever have had access to. Guy had no appreciation for mystery or exploration.
I resisted this somewhat by having my PC come up with strange notions about the world, fixations on creatures and places that were (I assumed) non-existant. The GM took my ramblings and used them to good effect and created some epic complications due to my PC's distorted beliefs.

Depending on the game I'd think there should be all sorts of faulty rumours floating around, maps for sale that are full of inaccuracies and preposterous lies, various factions who all KNOW how the world works but don't agree with each other. Anyone claiming to sell magic gewgaws should be suspect as well.

Quote from: Omega;939844And of course theres Metamorphosis Alpha and Gamma World. The PCs sometimes start near the stone age and have to puzzle out even the most basic of modern tools. Super science gadgets might as well be magic.

That reminds me of an old scifi story where some aliens visit far-future post human Earth. They find a canister of film, work out how to use it, and then watch it... assuming it to be an accurate depiction of humanity... which horrifies them in various ways. Then the credits roll and it's shown to be an old Disney cartoon.

Also, this suggests the idea that Paranoia is also a setting with a faulty narrator... enemies that might not exist. It could even be crossed with Metamorphosis Alpha for added surprise once that outer door is opened...

If you play Dungeon World straight up, the entire world is created from scratch, with input by the players. "Play to see what happens" can include cosmology, cosmogony, history, culture--everything is gathered as you go. I would think, however, that any sort of sandbox type game emulates this conceit. How a world works doesn't have to be game/system related, if there are no hard, fast setting elements to begin with. Short answer: I would think such an approach is philosophical, and that many, many systems could support such a philosophy. I'm only citing DW because it literally wants you to "leave blanks" in the design of everything, outside the basic playbooks and their assorted mechanisms (and even in those, there are no hard, fast 'facts' concerning such things as the nature of magic, where Elves come from, and whether Dwarves are miners).

Quote from: cranebump;939853I'm only citing DW because it literally wants you to "leave blanks" in the design of everything, outside the basic playbooks and their assorted mechanisms (and even in those, there are no hard, fast 'facts' concerning such things as the nature of magic, where Elves come from, and whether Dwarves are miners).

But once the Players make their input does that establish their input as 'fact'? It seems like there would be no knowing... until they decided they knew it... then they'd KNOW it. That vs. games where the GM might know the facts but has no rules saying he has to tell the Players or respect the notions they might come up with for lack of information.

Quote from: Simlasa;939856But once the Players make their input does that establish their input as 'fact'? It seems like there would be no knowing... until they decided they knew it... then they'd KNOW it. That vs. games where the GM might know the facts but has no rules saying he has to tell the Players or respect the notions they might come up with for lack of information.

Well, there's an option in Freebooters we sometimes use called "Establish," in which there's a chance what the player proposes (with GM agreement) is a fact. If the roll is a partial success, there's an element that may be true, but they may have something wrong (which could then be discovered later on). We tend to use this with regards to subjects less earth-moving than cosmology, for example, the player playing the mage once asked, "Were the mud sorcerers we've been hearing about known for creating orreries?" This came after them discovering the collapsed remnants of such in a previous dungeon. I hadn't decided that, and since the mage carries an item called "books" that might contain such info, I had him roll it. The roll exceeded the needed 10 on a 2d6, so that became an aspect of that legend. The actual nature of their use is still mysterious, but now we have this additional element for all of us to explore. So, in that case, they now KNOW it's a "fact" (though, as a legend, the exactitude of such can still come into question). Allowing a player to take part in that has the added bonus of building the kind of world the player wants to "live" in.

But maybe I'm not understanding the question. Are we talking world building where everything comes out in play, from either side of the table? That's where I'm coming from, with regards to the query.

I think if you regard world building as something that arises organically, then just leaving the details blank, then filling in as you go satisfies the basic requirement of world construction. But, if I have the basic premise wrong...

Quote from: cranebump;939867Well, there's an option in Freebooters we sometimes use called "Establish,"...

Jeez! That sounds like a lot of twaddle for something that (IME) just happens organically at the table without any rules. I guess that's the nature of the *World games... though I'd assume not with the new Kult incarnation.

Quote from: Simlasa;939849That reminds me of an old scifi story where some aliens visit far-future post human Earth. They find a canister of film, work out how to use it, and then watch it... assuming it to be an accurate depiction of humanity... which horrifies them in various ways. Then the credits roll and it's shown to be an old Disney cartoon.

"History Lesson" by Arthur C Clarke. Got it. Still funny all these years later. Moreso because the Venisians can never decipher the writing.

Quote from: Simlasa;939872Jeez! That sounds like a lot of twaddle for something that (IME) just happens organically at the table without any rules. I guess that's the nature of the *World games... though I'd assume not with the new Kult incarnation.

Well, there's a difference between me just saying, "Yes, they were known for that" versus allowing the player's suggestion to become reality with some randomness. I would argue that it's still "organic" because it comes out of play, albeit with a mechanism, versus an on the spot hand wave. A difference which makes little difference, save the character's ability to research gives them some verification. But, yeah, you could do it without a rule, easily. I just felt like allowing a roll at that point, since I hadn't considered the idea, and it felt like something the character could contribute in a way consistent with his abilities.

Quote from: Ashakyre;939825Anyway, does anything like this exist? How might you go about designing it?

What you describe sounds like every RPG where the players do not read all the material.

Quote from: cranebump;939882I just felt like allowing a roll at that point, since I hadn't considered the idea, and it felt like something the character could contribute in a way consistent with his abilities.

Sorry, I was just being grumpy... and re-reading it it does seem like a simple thing to do. Like the reverse of a Lore check to see if a PC has knowledge.

Quote from: Ashakyre;939825This is a super abstract question so I hope I can frame it correctly.

When reading a book a large part of the enjoyment is figuring out how the world works. When you start, you don't know. As time goes on, the picture gets clearer, and maybe at some point there's a big reveal and you discover that something which you thought was real, isn't.

In a role playing game, the players might read the books or get an explanation from the GM, so there isn't much mystery about how the world works. You can walk around and discover things on a map - which is really fun - but you already know if there's a pagan pantheon, a godless universe, distant places, a shadow realm, etc.

Is there any game system that accommodates a wide variety of cosmologies such that at the start of play, the players don't actually know what the universe is really like? Sure, they know what their own characters' think, but the truth could be, and likely is, something completely different. This way, quests can resolve around not just capturing McGuffins of Power or defeating Big Bad, but also learning about the universe. This McGuffin doesn't really do anything, except that it's a piece of a map of the world's cosmology... a slice of heaven, or hell, or whatever.

I admit, in posing this question I'm conflating "cosmology" with "how things work" - I hope people can see what I'm hinting towards.

Anyway, does anything like this exist? How might you go about designing it?

Homebrew setting and game world, with a GM like me, who is careful to only give in-character information (which is just what their character thinks and experiences) about the game world. Little OOC discussion from the GM.

Quote from: Omega;939844Many RPGs can be played that way. D&D often is with the players not knowing even whats over the horizon for one reason or another. They set fourth adventuring not even knowing what most or possibly any monsters are. Possibly not even knowing of magic past what little they have access to. If even that.

You seem to mostly be talking about things the characters don't know, but the OP's question is about having things the players don't know, even if they've read the rule/setting book, previously GMed the system, etc.  So basically only the GM knows it (with a little bit of a nod to the possibility that even the GM might not know yet).

Quote from: Skarg;939907Homebrew setting and game world, with a GM like me, who is careful to only give in-character information (which is just what their character thinks and experiences) about the game world. Little OOC discussion from the GM.

This is pretty much the approach I take and it works quite well.

The only other option that I've seen used is the line of books with an ongoing metaplot, where the early books leave gaps in the setting information they provide, which will then be filled in by later books as they are published.  Personally, I hate this publishing model, because the authors intend the mysteries of the metaplot to be a (if not the) primary focus of the game, but I feel like I can't go anywhere near them without contradicting as-yet-unpublished canon.  And, of course, it also doesn't solve the OP's original issue, since players can buy the new books when they come out and read the new information just as easily as the GM can.

Quote from: Old One Eye;939891What you describe sounds like every RPG where the players do not read all the material.

This.

Quote from: Simlasa;939894Sorry, I was just being grumpy... and re-reading it it does seem like a simple thing to do. Like the reverse of a Lore check to see if a PC has knowledge.

No bigs. I knew what you meant.:-)