We're playing D&D (5e) tonight, and I'd like to try an experiment.

We're playing in a homebrew mega-dungeon.  6 PCs, all level 3. The party has a well-established hidden hidey-hole in the dungeon, and a town is not too far from the dungeon as well.

Lately my players have been doing the 5-minute-day thing a bit (it's more like two encounters, but close enough).  The mage unloads all his spells, and once he's done the party goes and rests for an hour (restores one spell), or a day even (restores all).

I'd like to try something new, for our 5e game at least.  I want to try waves of creatures, so that the party cannot safely withdraw to their hidey-hole without a pitched battle the whole way there (and risk the monsters discovering their hidden lair).

I am not looking to kill any PC (unless the dice just happen to roll that way), but my intent is to challenge the party such that they feel the need to fight, or negotiate, or creatively escape, or something else along those lines, rather than simply safely leave after a battle and restore all their spells.  Something that gets them to have to keep going beyond the point where the Mage normally runs out of his spells.

Does anyone have advice on how they've successfully accomplished this? Or, is my thinking on this off-base? If the players are having fun with the way it's been going, should I just let it be for now?

Just have monsters find their hidey hole? Seems easier.

Yeah, I mean, play the monsters intelligently.  Monsters are getting wiped out on a daily basis, the intelligent ones are going to start looking around to see what's going on.  Not to mention random traffic.  Unless the party's ridiculously careful and lucky, they'll leave *some* trail.

Think of it like a neighborhood realizing there's a serial killer on the loose.  You don't just go "oh, well, no big deal" and continue on with life as usual.  Even if they don't find the hidey-hole, they're going to beef up security, travel in larger groups, etc.

If you've let 'em get away with this for this long, it's probably a decent idea to let them overhear some appropriate chatter about what the monsters are doing, so it's not a game changer out of the blue.  But dungeons shouldn't be static.

Quote from: robiswrong;728408Yeah, I mean, play the monsters intelligently.  Monsters are getting wiped out on a daily basis, the intelligent ones are going to start looking around to see what's going on.  Not to mention random traffic.  Unless the party's ridiculously careful and lucky, they'll leave *some* trail.

Think of it like a neighborhood realizing there's a serial killer on the loose.  You don't just go "oh, well, no big deal" and continue on with life as usual.  Even if they don't find the hidey-hole, they're going to beef up security, travel in larger groups, etc.

If you've let 'em get away with this for this long, it's probably a decent idea to let them overhear some appropriate chatter about what the monsters are doing, so it's not a game changer out of the blue.  But dungeons shouldn't be static.

I agree. The key is to make the monsters bright but not to just find the hidey hole because their tactics annoy you as the GM. The world needs to be alive and its denizens played out to their limits but if the PCs are really smart and do get back to their lair leaving no tracks then fine . Maybe the monsters will fortify places in preparation instead or maybe they will try and negotiate , maybe they think the party are monsters and they offer them sacrifice .

Try adding one or more monster players, given only such information as you would give characters in the same position. Now you really are more of an impartial referee. Maybe the monsters get the adventurers because they use a different strategy; maybe they will get them using the same "5 minute days."

Try using the dungeon topology to make things harder for them.  A linear segment of a dungeon allows the party to advance while being sure that nothing is going to come up behind them.  Advancing and retreating are clearly distinct actions.

Instead, have the players move past crossroads, or choke points in order to engage the enemy.  A crossroads means that a second batch of enemies can engage the players from behind (or while they're retreating).  A choke point slows the players down so that making a hasty retreat is more or less like running into a dead end.

Here's an example:

Tunnel A leads to Gallery B.  The gallery is a long, pillared hall, overlooked by a mezzanine level.  Two narrow stairways lead up to the mezzanine, which leads to a warren-like nest of seemingly abandoned (but not quite) tunnels.  If the players create a disturbance further on, they might return to find the mezzanine occupied with goblin archers (or something).

At the far end of Gallery B is a long natural tunnel that leads to Cavern C.  Cavern C is roughly circular and about 400 yards in diameter. It's a dead cave, and the floor is very uneven. Steep drops and steps of 1'-4' are everywhere, as are broken stalagmites and brackish, stagnant pools.  In several places, the apparently flat cavern floor is just a thin mineral crust over a pocket 2-5' deep.

Cavern C is the nesting ground for three separate encampments of underground dwellers.  While light sources will only illuminate a nearby area, they'll be clearly visible throughout cavern, so the dwellers will be easily able to watch the party progress (or even shoot at them with ranged weapons if they choose).  Many of the Cavern C dwellers are able to use a network of tiny, warren-like tunnels that connect to the mezzanine of Gallery B.

Right at the entrance of cavern C is a crevasse, 8' wide and 20' deep. The bottom contains about 4' of oozing, warm tar.

Things I did last night (which was before I had a chance to read the answers in this thread):

The players had previously hit the lizardfolk area of the dungeon (twice).  Some lizardfolk factions had been warring with each other previously, but once the players hit them the first time, the lizardfolks made peace with each other and gathered their numbers together in one area.

When the PCs went to what had previously been scouted to be a lightly populated area, they found a hoard with a mix of enemy spellcasters and warriors, backed by some leader-types.  Oh, and very alert guards.

The PCs tried to tactically retreat...but part of the lizardfolk peeled off and beat them to the punch, flanking them while entering through the area they had planned to retreat through.  Oh, and that group had grabbed some single-use magic and alchemical items from their treasure chests, and used them on the players.

This left my players with a dilemma...retreat through an unexplored area of the dungeon, likely into the lair of something else nasty and unexpected...or fight the hoard.  Things were complicated by a silence spell laid down where most of the PCs were located, so I didn't let them discuss it OOC with each other.  Those silenced opted to follow the physical lead of those who were not.

They decided to fight.  It was a very tough battle, with half the party in one room while the other half in the other room for much of the battle.  The mage and cleric both exhausted their spells, three people went unconscious, and only by luck of some dice and fortunate positioning did the players manage to beat out the lizardman hoard.  There were dead bodies everywhere, tables knocked over, multiple fires, and a lot of blood.

We have not resolved where the party is going from there, as we only played 2 hours total (lots of interruptions during the game) and this battle took almost that entire time (which is a first in my experience with 5e, as prior battles usually lasted 20 minutes or so).

I imagine if I hit them with even a relatively easy group of monsters on their way back to exit the dungeon and/or their hidey-hole, they'd be wiped.  One player joked they would have to chug unidentified potions and hope none were poison.