I mean k6 and k10 roll over dice systems are hardly crazy even with abundance of d20

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 07, 2022, 10:42:41 AM

Quote from: Fheredin on April 07, 2022, 08:33:45 AM
As to pool systems which use multiple dice types; the speed depends greatly on implementation and how a particular table manages it. Cortex is not a particularly fast system, but I think most of that is because it's a mixed die system which also has the GM roll for difficulty and a lot of addition. That said, I think comparing a mixed die pool to a D20 core mechanic or even a 2d6/ 3d6 system misses the point; a mixed die pool is a very crunchy system, roughly equal to percentile with multiple modifiers applied. Comparing a mixed die pool to something like D20 will inherently make the mixed pool system look slow because the mixed pool is delivering several times the crunch.

The question though is whether the added crunch is actually necessary or provides information worthwhile enough to be worth the added resolution time.

For example, how much is adding a complication die into the mix worth compared to a GM just deciding to introduce complications when they make logical sense and keeping the check to a basic pass/fail (or basic MoS... ie. botch, fail, marginal success, complete success or critical success if degrees are needed)?

Many times the added complexity of dice rolls is just automating what a GM is supposed to do anyway and, because of this, often feels a bit like the HERO System flaws like enemy or DNPC where a random roll requires the GM to insert plot element X into their adventure or the PC is getting free points for not having to deal with the flaw you find annoying to implement (which is why M&M's complication system is so much better).

Okay, you pulled off your stealth check, but got a complication. Now the GM has to figure out something to create a problem even if logically there shouldn't be one. Similarly, you fail your stealth check, but get an advantage... and now the GM has to come up with some way that carelessly stepping on a twig and alerting the guards gives you an advantage.

It's basically dumping work onto the GM that might not create a better result than just allowing the GM to improvise themselves off the results of a simple pass/fail and the specific circumstances of the situation. A good GM will almost certainly produce better results than that random die roll. At best I'd say, the random die roll is best employed for reminding a new GM to include aspects beyond pass/fail into their challenges and should be skippable by more seasoned GM's.

I don't think it's an accident than systems with more complex resolution systems never seem to gain much traction. The ones people keep coming back to don't have gimmick dice systems they have straightforward ones (mostly 1-2 simple add/compare functions... ie. Rolled dice+mod compared to TN -or- individual dice rolls compared to TN and successes added up).

I think that you're actually arguing that most of these systems require a lot of effort for what they accomplish. If so, I generally agree, but there is a caveat. Just because it's that way today doesn't mean it will be tomorrow. I seriously doubt that D20 will see a major overhaul in how its played, but at the same time there is a lot of unexplored blue ocean game design space in dice pools--especially mixed die pools. I'm willing to wager that if there is a major paradigm shift in RPGs, it will come from the dice pool side of the hobby.

Quote from: Fheredin on April 07, 2022, 06:58:19 PMI'm willing to wager that if there is a major paradigm shift in RPGs, it will come from the dice pool side of the hobby.

There has been an increase among skirmish boardgames that use pools of proprietary dice to represent character, such as attacks in Star Wars Legion being listed as Two Red or Three White. I could seen this system translating over to RPGs where as a player gains experience, he starts to roll the same number dice but they are now better dice. This keeps the die fumbling to a minimum.

And with the explosion of 3D printing, you could concoct a system where a character is defined solely on his pool of custom-made dice. So each character has his own set of unique dice whose faces are chosen from multiple possibilities and the exact composition of this pool determines all the stats needed: some character might have dice with magical symbols whereas others would have symbols for strength etc.

Of course, you could do a similar thing with cards, such as Gloomhaven does.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 07, 2022, 11:19:54 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on April 07, 2022, 06:58:19 PMI'm willing to wager that if there is a major paradigm shift in RPGs, it will come from the dice pool side of the hobby.

There has been an increase among skirmish boardgames to you pools of proprietary dice to represent character, such as attacks in Star Wars Legion being listed as Two Red or Three White. I could seen this system translating over to RPGs where as a player gains experience, he starts to roll the same number dice but they are now better dice. This keeps the die fumbling to a minimum.

And with the explosion of 3D printing, you could concoct a system where a character is defined solely on his pool of custom-made dice. So each character has his own set of unique dice whose faces are chosen from multiple possibilities and the exact composition of this pool determines all the stats needed: some character might have dice with magical symbols whereas others would have symbols for strength etc.

Of course, you could do a similar thing with cards, such as Gloomhaven does.

Shhhh!  I'm working on something like that right now.  Don't give anyone else ideas!

Quote from: Eirikrautha on April 08, 2022, 01:13:40 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 07, 2022, 11:19:54 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on April 07, 2022, 06:58:19 PMI'm willing to wager that if there is a major paradigm shift in RPGs, it will come from the dice pool side of the hobby.

There has been an increase among skirmish boardgames to you pools of proprietary dice to represent character, such as attacks in Star Wars Legion being listed as Two Red or Three White. I could seen this system translating over to RPGs where as a player gains experience, he starts to roll the same number dice but they are now better dice. This keeps the die fumbling to a minimum.

And with the explosion of 3D printing, you could concoct a system where a character is defined solely on his pool of custom-made dice. So each character has his own set of unique dice whose faces are chosen from multiple possibilities and the exact composition of this pool determines all the stats needed: some character might have dice with magical symbols whereas others would have symbols for strength etc.

Of course, you could do a similar thing with cards, such as Gloomhaven does.

Shhhh!  I'm working on something like that right now.  Don't give anyone else ideas!

Personally, any game that requires proprietary dice is a non starter for me. 

Quote from: Godsmonkey on April 11, 2022, 11:45:38 AMPersonally, any game that requires proprietary dice is a non starter for me.

I used to think that but I've come around. I will say, though, that I will only accept proprietary dice if you are doing something with those dice that can't be done with normal dice. And that thing better make the game play faster or easier. So, DCC using d30s is out.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 11, 2022, 02:24:31 PM

Quote from: Godsmonkey on April 11, 2022, 11:45:38 AMPersonally, any game that requires proprietary dice is a non starter for me.

I used to think that but I've come around. I will say, though, that I will only accept proprietary dice if you are doing something with those dice that can't be done with normal dice. And that thing better make the game play faster or easier. So, DCC using d30s is out.

I thinks this is a healthy way of looking at it. Custom dice can offer alot if used correctly and I feel the FFG Dice started on something good and was refined a bit with their genesys game. I however think that the only time it's worth it is if you have multiple axis of success or failure. Otherwise just use numerical dice.

A concept I want to see more of is games that use a "Build your own dice" function however I personally wouldn't want to play something like that until an app or website exists where I could easily use them without spending outrageous amounts of money. Just the possibilities that are open in customization of not just character stats but character dice is neat.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 11, 2022, 02:24:31 PM

Quote from: Godsmonkey on April 11, 2022, 11:45:38 AMPersonally, any game that requires proprietary dice is a non starter for me.

I used to think that but I've come around. I will say, though, that I will only accept proprietary dice if you are doing something with those dice that can't be done with normal dice. And that thing better make the game play faster or easier. So, DCC using d30s is out.

My player with a Wizard PC, who's mercurial magic roll for his Flaming Hands spell (natural born talent) lets him roll a d30 rather than a d20 for that spell might beg to differ. But on the other hand, that player also has a Warrior PC who lost both of his legs due to back-to-back crits, both with a 22 (on a d24) on Crit Table V.

In neither of these cases have rolling a d30 or a d24 made my game play slower or more difficult. YMMV.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 11, 2022, 02:24:31 PM

Quote from: Godsmonkey on April 11, 2022, 11:45:38 AMPersonally, any game that requires proprietary dice is a non starter for me.

I used to think that but I've come around. I will say, though, that I will only accept proprietary dice if you are doing something with those dice that can't be done with normal dice. And that thing better make the game play faster or easier. So, DCC using d30s is out.

I own FF Star Wars, and its part of the reason for my statement about proprietary dice. None of the FLGS in a 60 mile area (I'm in south FL) have them, none on amazon and even FF's store lists them as out of stock. If your favorite proprietary dice RPG goes under, or is out of stock, you're screwed. Same goes for Ubiquity, but at least with that game, I can just roll more dice, or custom number blank D8s (or I have custom D20s with "5 dice" distribution)

If I want to play FF SW, I am forced to use a dice roller app for my phone. My players hate dice apps.

D30s, D16, D14 and such suffer a bit less from this problem, but like you, DCC is out for me as well.

A d5 is a handy die to have around.

I think Savage Worlds would be the best example of a systems that uses multiple dice types in a quite unique way. Lots of people like it, though it never really "gelled" for my group way back.

d6 is the unmarked die. If you talk about a die, people will think about a d6. And it is chosen by designers because it is the type that everyone probably already has.

The others are I think because of the popularity of systems that used particular dice. d10 is used both for d10 and d100, so it has an edge in being ubiquitous. You've got games like Call of Cthulhu and World of Darkness, which are among the most popular non-D&D RPGs and have been for a long time using d10s.

And then the d20 because it was the core die of the 'd20 System' aka D&D 3.x.

For the same reason that RPGs inspired by TSR-D&D used a variety of dice, RPGs inspired by any other popular system are more likely to use the same di(c)e types than they are to switch to something else.

So I don't think this is really a preference on the part of players, as much as on the part of designers.

Quote from: Kahoona on April 12, 2022, 03:03:24 AM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 11, 2022, 02:24:31 PM

Quote from: Godsmonkey on April 11, 2022, 11:45:38 AMPersonally, any game that requires proprietary dice is a non starter for me.

I used to think that but I've come around. I will say, though, that I will only accept proprietary dice if you are doing something with those dice that can't be done with normal dice. And that thing better make the game play faster or easier. So, DCC using d30s is out.

I thinks this is a healthy way of looking at it. Custom dice can offer alot if used correctly and I feel the FFG Dice started on something good and was refined a bit with their genesys game. I however think that the only time it's worth it is if you have multiple axis of success or failure. Otherwise just use numerical dice.

A concept I want to see more of is games that use a "Build your own dice" function however I personally wouldn't want to play something like that until an app or website exists where I could easily use them without spending outrageous amounts of money. Just the possibilities that are open in customization of not just character stats but character dice is neat.

I disagree on both counts. I don't think custom dice are inherently bad, but I expect performance out of a system which requires them, and in Genesys' case, I have to say it never struck me as actually doing particularly "more" than other systems. The multiple axes means you are constantly being thrown writing prompts from the dice, which is good is some contexts. But the thing with writing prompts is that you need to stop prompting and let player creativity take hold eventually.

Genesys never stops prompting. This is one of the reasons my own core mechanic (Link over to Design, Development, and Gameplay: https://www.therpgsite.com/design-development-and-gameplay/custom-core-mechanic-feedback/ ) has analogous rules to Genesys as a rule players invoke. If you don't want to have the writing prompt, it should fold neatly away into a conventional TN system.

As to using an app or website...I generally think that tech incorporation breaks immersion more than it helps. The point of an RPG is to get you to execute the rules of the game with your own brain. That's how RPGs create game feel. As soon as you incorporate tech, you start offloading parts of the game to the computer and it becomes a CRPG with words instead of graphics.

The only apps I really like for live tabletop gaming are basic dice rollers because sometimes shaking your phone is just more convenient when table space is at a premium or nonexistent (especially with large dice pool games... when your Dhampir has to roll 11 dice and your table space is basically a postage stamp, a dice roller helps a lot).

As far as proprietary dice go; the One Ring is pretty neat this way, with the Gandalf rune, Sauron's eye, and Tengwar runes included as symbols on the dice. It's the kind of thing you could imagine Tolkien himself approving of.