Quote from: Fheredin on April 12, 2022, 08:03:55 PM
The point of an RPG is to get you to execute the rules of the game with your own brain. That's how RPGs create game feel. As soon as you incorporate tech, you start offloading parts of the game to the computer and it becomes a CRPG with words instead of graphics.

I disagree on the point of RPGs. To me, the point of RPGs is to get into the head of the character one is portraying, make decisions for said character, and what them play out in accordance with the consistent setting. Rules exist to quantify what is possible in the world and allow the GM to fairly adjudicate actions of uncertain out come. A player ought to be able to make a decision without consulting the character sheet or rule book. Electronic tools are just tools, although I prefer a game that is more reliant on the GM's brain than any other tool, else I am better of with a computer game.

As for proprietary dice, I see them as little more than anti consumer DRM. One can run a game with a single copy of a rule book, but only one set of dice is impractical, thus propriety dice are a way to extract a per player fee. Conversely, I will except proprietary dice if they have a different distribution and streamline the process of rolling (XdN)/Y+Z as they are convenient but not required in such a case.

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As for proprietary dice, I see them as little more than anti consumer DRM. One can run a game with a single copy of a rule book, but only one set of dice is impractical, thus propriety dice are a way to extract a per player fee. Conversely, I will except proprietary dice if they have a different distribution and streamline the process of rolling (XdN)/Y+Z as they are convenient but not required in such a case.

FF Star Wars Employs the WoTC tactic of too many books, with multiple GM and player option books, as well as over priced, proprietary dice. Each dice set is over $10, and any half way decent character will need 2 sets of dice. No thanks.

As for dice that can add depth to the roll, such as prompts or some such, I can see a point of doing it, but that could be done with regular dice, or even playing cards. You certainly dont need custom dice to do that.

Yeah, one of the appeals of RPGs for me was that it was affordable compared to similar hobbies (war games, CCGs). Once you start adding all those options on, it gets just as expensive. So when it's clear that such a model is going to be used for a game, it's better to just check out on it before you start.

Again with proprietary dice adding to the cost: if it adds to the fun it's fine for a lot of people. However anything that seems to just try to squeeze money out of customers with little payoff is a bad thing, and I have seen this done with books too, not just dice. We pay for the fun when we buy the game anyway. I think a lot of people agreed that the One Ring dice were a fun thing. Of course you COULD use normal dice, and perhaps draw some symbols on, which is fine too.

Also, dice go missing. If you have one set of proprietary dice, you need to buy a whole new set of them if one is lost. If you lose one die from a set of d4 to d20, you just have an incomplete set, but you still have other d8s or d12s or whatever went missing.

With custom cards it's also like that. I like the Fate Deck in Dragonlance 5th Age, but if I lose one of the cards, I can't even replace it. With a system that uses poker cards, I could just get another deck.

TBH if you count fast enough you can simulate proprietary dice of Genesys or L5r5 with common dice.

Quote from: Fheredin on April 12, 2022, 08:03:55 PM
-snip-

It's why I used the word "Refined" compared to the FFG Starwars it's a bit better and isn't so "hardline" in what happens. I do however agree that it's still quite flawed with this "Constant prompting" as you call it. In my group we just referred to it as "Hiccups" as a scene would be going well then suddenly the dice say you succeed but now something bad happens. At first, we ran it as the rules intended it to be ran but as time went on the GM toned things down, only in combat would we run the advantages and disadvantages as the book intended and we found this disconnect between "High Stress" and "Low Stress" rules worked really well. It meant that when we were just fixing a space ship we wouldn't cause another major problem.

As for not liking apps, I also prefer rolling things myself however I play ALOT of online games so having apps to do the heavy lifting or rolling dice is always appreciated and a must for me. I also think apps are a must for most "Custom Dice" simply because if not, you'll be paying out of your rear for those overpriced dice. I do however disagree about it being immersion-breaking unless you mean letting an app do all of the calculations for you which I think you are hinting at. If that's the case, I agree 100%.

Quote from: Godsmonkey on April 13, 2022, 07:07:53 AM
FF Star Wars Employs the WoTC tactic of too many books, with multiple GM and player option books, as well as over priced, proprietary dice. Each dice set is over $10, and any half way decent character will need 2 sets of dice. No thanks.

As for dice that can add depth to the roll, such as prompts or some such, I can see a point of doing it, but that could be done with regular dice, or even playing cards. You certainly dont need custom dice to do that.

I think this is the biggest issue with proprietary dice, they are just up-priced for no reason other than greed. I do however need to ask do you think selling extra splat books or adventures of a system is a bad take? Or are you mostly annoyed by WotC selling the 3 books you need to play the game separate rather than together?

Quote from: migo on April 13, 2022, 11:42:26 AM
Also, dice go missing. If you have one set of proprietary dice, you need to buy a whole new set of them if one is lost. If you lose one die from a set of d4 to d20, you just have an incomplete set, but you still have other d8s or d12s or whatever went missing.

That's why I mentioned 3d printing. You can go on Thingyverse right now and download STL files for FFG's Star Wars dice and make your own. Whether that means a surge in custom dice or not we'll have to wait and see.

But it does address a huge issue I've had with proprietary dice which is there is no way to modify them. For example, the blue die in FFGs' SW game doesn't follow the pattern of the other dice. So I would like to modify it or even create multiple different types of blue dice to allow the player to pick what results he needs. You can do that with printed dice.

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I think this is the biggest issue with proprietary dice, they are just up-priced for no reason other than greed. I do however need to ask do you think selling extra splat books or adventures of a system is a bad take? Or are you mostly annoyed by WotC selling the 3 books you need to play the game separate rather than together?

Annoyed isn't the right word per se.

I certainly don't begrudge a game company from making products. It's how they stay in business. I was just pointing out that both are money grabbing tactics.

As a GM, I reserve the right to tell my players we will only play from core rules, so at my table, its not a major issue. That said, I have in the past had players insist I allow rules from non-core books, most often in Shadowrun.

The main difference with proprietary dice and splat books is, sans an app, everyone who wants to play will have to invest money on a set of dice. In ANY game that doesn't have special dice, players can start play borrowing a cheap set of dice from other players. Players don't even need the core rules to play.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 13, 2022, 01:54:40 PM

Quote from: migo on April 13, 2022, 11:42:26 AM
Also, dice go missing. If you have one set of proprietary dice, you need to buy a whole new set of them if one is lost. If you lose one die from a set of d4 to d20, you just have an incomplete set, but you still have other d8s or d12s or whatever went missing.

That's why I mentioned 3d printing. You can go on Thingyverse right now and download STL files for FFG's Star Wars dice and make your own. Whether that means a surge in custom dice or not we'll have to wait and see.

But it does address a huge issue I've had with proprietary dice which is there is no way to modify them. For example, the blue die in FFGs' SW game doesn't follow the pattern of the other dice. So I would like to modify it or even create multiple different types of blue dice to allow the player to pick what results he needs. You can do that with printed dice.

When I looked a year or so ago, I saw no dice on thingyverse. I'd love a link, or I can look again.

However, an issue I have with 3D printing of dice is they seldom come out perfect. Getting the supports right is a PitA. However, as printing improves, 3D print technology will make proprietary dice more feasible.

EDIT:

I found a set:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4648156

TBH with proprietary dice, you can have one pool for all table, and whoever needs to roll roll with this one. Still bit of nuissance.

Quote from: Godsmonkey on April 13, 2022, 03:08:53 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 13, 2022, 01:54:40 PM

Quote from: migo on April 13, 2022, 11:42:26 AM
Also, dice go missing. If you have one set of proprietary dice, you need to buy a whole new set of them if one is lost. If you lose one die from a set of d4 to d20, you just have an incomplete set, but you still have other d8s or d12s or whatever went missing.

That's why I mentioned 3d printing. You can go on Thingyverse right now and download STL files for FFG's Star Wars dice and make your own. Whether that means a surge in custom dice or not we'll have to wait and see.

But it does address a huge issue I've had with proprietary dice which is there is no way to modify them. For example, the blue die in FFGs' SW game doesn't follow the pattern of the other dice. So I would like to modify it or even create multiple different types of blue dice to allow the player to pick what results he needs. You can do that with printed dice.

When I looked a year or so ago, I saw no dice on thingyverse. I'd love a link, or I can look again.

However, an issue I have with 3D printing of dice is they seldom come out perfect. Getting the supports right is a PitA. However, as printing improves, 3D print technology will make proprietary dice more feasible.

EDIT:

I found a set:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4648156

Easier is just printing out stickers. If there is a blank set of stickers with a standard size for various dice shapes, you'd just need a simple program or template that aligns them right, and print out. Or even simpler, if there's an A4 sized sticker that you peel off the back, print the right symbols out and then cut them out with a precision knife.

Quote from: Wisithir on April 12, 2022, 10:24:04 PM

Quote from: Fheredin on April 12, 2022, 08:03:55 PM
The point of an RPG is to get you to execute the rules of the game with your own brain. That's how RPGs create game feel. As soon as you incorporate tech, you start offloading parts of the game to the computer and it becomes a CRPG with words instead of graphics.

I disagree on the point of RPGs. To me, the point of RPGs is to get into the head of the character one is portraying, make decisions for said character, and what them play out in accordance with the consistent setting. Rules exist to quantify what is possible in the world and allow the GM to fairly adjudicate actions of uncertain out come. A player ought to be able to make a decision without consulting the character sheet or rule book.

Kinda sorta. Rules affect decisions. A burst from a machine gun is handled differently in RIFTS or Cyberpunk or Mutant Chronicles. Sometimes handled differently between editions. Firing a burst might be a good idea in one ruleset, and a waste in another system.
As an example off my head.
I agree that broad decisions shouldn't require a ruleset. But specific decisions often do.

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Easier is just printing out stickers. If there is a blank set of stickers with a standard size for various dice shapes, you'd just need a simple program or template that aligns them right, and print out. Or even simpler, if there's an A4 sized sticker that you peel off the back, print the right symbols out and then cut them out with a precision knife.

This is true. Of course you then have to learn to read them. I have a player who 4 years of gaming in, still confuses a D12 and D20, and D8 with D10.

I will say, of all the proprietary dice out there, FATE, and Ubiquity do the best IMO of creating proprietary dice that are easy to read. Of course in FATE you can just use a D6, and Ubiquity, any die works, you just read evens vs odds.

Quote from: Godsmonkey on April 14, 2022, 07:03:56 AM

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Easier is just printing out stickers. If there is a blank set of stickers with a standard size for various dice shapes, you'd just need a simple program or template that aligns them right, and print out. Or even simpler, if there's an A4 sized sticker that you peel off the back, print the right symbols out and then cut them out with a precision knife.

This is true. Of course you then have to learn to read them. I have a player who 4 years of gaming in, still confuses a D12 and D20, and D8 with D10.

I will say, of all the proprietary dice out there, FATE, and Ubiquity do the best IMO of creating proprietary dice that are easy to read. Of course in FATE you can just use a D6, and Ubiquity, any die works, you just read evens vs odds.

That's a problem with die shape, more than what is printed on each face. If you use d4, d6, d8 and d12 (which are the 4 types that would be easiest to print out readable shapes for), you're not going to have any trouble with them being confused. d10 and d20 could also work, but you have a much smaller face to work with.