Forgive me if this is the wrong place to post this, been a lurker for a short time and finally decided to post.

I've played many a game in my time as a Gamer but I've noticed a trend that most people likely have as well. We only really use 3 kinds of dice and only a few game types make use of multiple die types. I know why War and Skirmish gaming use D6's it's because it's rooted in tradition and the adding and the storing and rolling of a d6 is easier. Just as I know we use d100's because it gives a larger margin of success/failure and finally the d20 because 5% is just a nice linear increase.

What I wonder, however, is why are the d6, d10/d100 and d20 most popular styles of dice for TTRPGs and why we don't see more games make use of different die types besides for some niche titles, traditional games and the handful of games which make use of all die types we don't see other dice types pop up.

The only "recent" games I've seen which have made use of dice outside of the norm is the very flawed Cold & Dark which uses D8's as its dice for its dice pool with the target number being a 7+ making it a 25% chance of success per roll. And the FFG Genesys system which uses D8's and D12's with a smattering of D6's all of which are custom dice.

So, the cruxx of the question is. Do we only use the common dice types because they are just that, common? Or do you think there are other factors at play which has moulded the gaming scene that has resulted in their being only 3 main types of dice?

This is purely anecdotal, but in introduced my gaming group to Traveller (2D6 system) and it was met with luke warm response, mostly because the dice were "Boring". We now play Stars Without Number, and the players LOVE the game, mostly because they get to roll all the funny shaped dice.

Now, my players, save for 2 are all newish players, so there is still a novelty to polyhedrals.

Well, you sort of answered your own question.

- d6 because it is ubiquitous and, in reasonable quantities, adding them is easy.

- d100 because percentages are things people are familiar with and think they grok.

- d20 because it's just percentages in easier to grok 5% increments.

That said, there are other systems like Savage Worlds that use all the die types except the d20 as essentially attribute sizes, and World of Darkness has long used pools of multiple d10's for its resolution.

The main thing is, just like the wheel is really good at moving things across the ground, if something works well then people will keep using it and expand on it. 2-3d6, 1d20 or a percentile roll all work really well for generating results in a quick and straightforward manner so, like the wheel, they're a pretty good start for task resolution and the only reason to really push beyond that is some necessity for not using them (including the necessity to set yourself apart from other competitors).

I don't know why you would put d100 and not d10. But the main three in my experience would be d6, d8, d20.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 05, 2022, 01:54:31 PM
The main thing is, just like the wheel is really good at moving things across the ground, if something works well then people will keep using it and expand on it. 2-3d6, 1d20 or a percentile roll all work really well for generating results in a quick and straightforward manner so, like the wheel, they're a pretty good start for task resolution and the only reason to really push beyond that is some necessity for not using them (including the necessity to set yourself apart from other competitors).

I tend to agree with your sentiment here, personally, I think it's just because we've just always used them d100s and d20's in particular due to their common use and d10's because 10 is a nice easy number to work with. I think the only reason we use d6's is that they are iconic die. I just made this post because I'm curious if others have different opinions on the matter.

Quote from: Zelen on April 05, 2022, 02:22:41 PM
I don't know why you would put d100 and not d10. But the main three in my experience would be d6, d8, d20.

I did mention d10's elsewhere, sorry for the confusion. Also, where have you seen d8s? As I've only seen them in games that use all dice types and Cold & Dark. I've never seen it outside of those genres and normally I see it used for damage dice rather then the mechanical side of things.

For a while I was working on a home-brew that used die type as the level of a skill/attribute, mostly as an excuse to roll all of the die types.  Basic system was opposed roll with margin of success.  Larger dice could be broken into multiple smaller dice to perform multiple actions. So someone with god-like swordsmanship of d20 could fight off four less competent attackers (with, say, a d6 in swordsmanship) by splitting d20->2d12->4d10.  Splitting like that would 'burn' the d20 until the character rested, so they'd only be able to start with a d12 next time.  Using a single lower die (d12 in this case) doesn't cause fatigue.  The system had some nasty edge cases so I abandoned working on it, but it was able to model a very wide range of genres and worlds.

The d8 and d12 both have a bit of the "worst of both worlds" when compared to the d6, d10, and d20.  For people that like thinking in Base-10 terms, d10, d20, and d% seem more clear.  Sure, d6s, don't do that, but they are very familiar, in the same way the American version of Imperial measurements are familiar to Americans, despite not being Base-10.  Given enough exposure, people "sense" what happens with 1d6, 2d6, etc. Heck, from various gambling and dice games, there's rolls with names--"snake eyes" and "box cars". 

For d8, and d12, they are neither familiar nor conducive to the Base-10 perspective.  And of course a d4 has most of that baggage, with a funky shape.  It's only real positive edge is that "quarters" is something most people get.

Naturally, all that's around the edges.  Gamers with years of experience with the full set of dice, or a bent towards probability, or both, don't think that way.  So it's not a huge impediment to using funky dice, but as Clausewitz established, little bits of friction add up.  A game that sets out to deliberately use the d4, d8, or d12 more heavily probably has other things about it that create similar friction too. 

As any GURPS or Hero System players who have done it for years with casuals can tell you, your typical casual player will never fully get the 3d6 result distribution, but pretty darn fast they'll have an adequate gaming sense of what needing between an 8 and a 14 on 3d6 roll under means.

I've flirted many times with designs built around a system using 2d10 instead of d20.  That has a flatter curve than 3d6, while sitting in a similar range as that 3d6, and not coincidentally, the 1d20 as well.  So it's building on the familiarity that people have with that range. You want to know what's even cooler when you start to look at skill breaks, result ranges in the model, special results, etc?  2d8, 2d12, 2d10 where one or both dice can shift into a d8 or d12, and my personal favorite, d8 + d12.  (There's some real fun design space in having 2 different sized dice sitting close to the 2d10 range of results.) 

But man, the friction to overcome in play tests with casual gamers!  It can be overcome, but you had better be taking advantage of the exact mechanic chosen to make it worth it.  Most RPGs aren't designed to care about things like that.  If all you need is pass/fail on a skill test, it's not worth it.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 05, 2022, 03:10:11 PM
But man, the friction to overcome in play tests with casual gamers!  It can be overcome, but you had better be taking advantage of the exact mechanic chosen to make it worth it.  Most RPGs aren't designed to care about things like that.  If all you need is pass/fail on a skill test, it's not worth it.

I understand and even agree with much of what you've said in your reply. However, the way you've used friction is a bit confusing. I think I understand but could you clarify it? Maybe give some examples?

Quote from: Kahoona on April 05, 2022, 01:25:28 PMWhat I wonder, however, is why are the d6, d10/d100 and d20 most popular styles of dice for TTRPGs and why we don't see more games make use of different die types besides for some niche titles, traditional games and the handful of games which make use of all die types we don't see other dice types pop up.

Bear in mind that the "traditional games" still represent the largest chunk by actual number of players of the gaming community. Part of the reason indie games or high-concept games often tend to veer away from the classic polyhedrals is precisely because the elephant in the room (i.e. D&D and all its successor/spinoff/variants) still uses and always has used them.

I thought this was one of those posts where we declare sharp dice the superioriest dice everer

Much Sad

Quote from: THE_Leopold on April 05, 2022, 04:43:51 PM
I thought this was one of those posts where we declare sharp dice the superioriest dice everer

Much Sad

Those are fun to roll. Less fun to step on in the middle of the night.

I play DCC. We use all the dice.

Quote from: Kahoona on April 05, 2022, 03:19:00 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 05, 2022, 03:10:11 PM
But man, the friction to overcome in play tests with casual gamers!  It can be overcome, but you had better be taking advantage of the exact mechanic chosen to make it worth it.  Most RPGs aren't designed to care about things like that.  If all you need is pass/fail on a skill test, it's not worth it.

I understand and even agree with much of what you've said in your reply. However, the way you've used friction is a bit confusing. I think I understand but could you clarify it? Maybe give some examples?

In "On War" by Clausewitz, one of the key points that he makes is in war even "simple" things are hard.  We need to get these rations over here to those soldier over there.  There's lots of ways that can go wrong that wouldn't likely happen in peace time, or even if they did, they could be worked around.  More particularly, he is talking about how all the simple things can be hard, and often are.  He refers to this pervasive aspect as "friction". In a non-war sense, it can mean lots of little things going wrong adding up to bigger problems.

In RPGs, handling time on mechanics, understanding of how they fit, etc. can have a similar dynamic, albeit in something far less important.  It's also parallel in that you can't eliminate friction.  What you can do is to try to minimize unnecessary friction, manage the necessary friction as much as possible, and then have contingencies in place to deal with the results of friction when it can't be avoided.  For any given point, it's so small as to be not worth quibbling over.  That is, use any kind of dice you like if that's the only concern.  However, you can only go to that well so many times before it starts to run dry.  Or put another way, pick your points of friction carefully, remembering that some are outside your control and will happen no matter what you do.

Quote from: Kahoona on April 05, 2022, 01:25:28 PM
Do we only use the common dice types because they are just that, common? Or do you think there are other factors at play which has moulded the gaming scene that has resulted in their being only 3 main types of dice?

Games written for players that have dice fetishes tend to have crap rules.

As a purist gamer, I tend to think that the D12 is Best Die, and I would really rather play D12 based games than D20 based ones because 1/12th is a better balance of effect and math and roll feel than the D20's 1/20th for the same reason that base 12 math is generally regarded as superior to the base 10 math we were all taught and use; divisibility.

Divisibility is the unspoken superpower of Imperial measurements because most measurements are base 2 or base 12.

That said, when I actually judge a game for play, avoiding specialty dice is very high on my priorities. It isn't that I won't play games which require custom dice like FFG or such, but it is an obstacle, and often it raises my eyebrow of if the designer has an ego problem or is trying to be different for the sake of it (neither of which are good.)