TheRPGSite

So, who is winning, and who is getting solidly trounced?

Here's my impression of RPGPundit in that thread

Quote from: Name LipsSo, who is winning, and who is getting solidly trounced?

RPGPundit threw the contest before it even began.


Edit: fixed typo

Not seeing it as a win-lose contest, so I didn't vote.

C) It ain't a win-lose contest.

thread renamed for less moderator confusion.

I saw the title in the main forums view and thought "aaah crap, someone who shouldn't be posting in there just did..."

thankfully, that was not the case.

Last few posts split off to leave the main debate intact - however I'm sure Pundit loses a few points for derailing the thread via invocation of strawman.

Quote from: PookaLast few posts split off to leave the main debate intact - however I'm sure Pundit loses a few points for derailing the thread via invocation of strawman.

Pity, it could have been on of his strongest assertions.

If he had developed the argument right. He didn't, so it's no loss.

Quote from: Xavier LangNot seeing it as a win-lose contest, so I didn't vote.

I see it as a win-win contest, really.  We get the joy of airing our opinions and smacking them around, and everyone else gets to watch us toss each other around, and maybe spots stuff they like in our opinions.

A few points:

1. Levi, as a stand-in for all swine/theorists (in the pundit's terms) isn't a particuarly indicative target. He doesn't (AFAIK) believe in White-Wolf brain-damage. He isn't posting that the majority of gamers don't enjoy gaming and find some kind of psuedo gaming instead to enjoy (remembered gaming).

Most importantly (and you can correct me if I have you wrong on these points, Levi), he isn't claiming that RPGs that aren't art are crap (I'm not sure who actually *is* on the record as saying that--no one who posts here regularly that I'm aware of)

2. RPGPundit, as a, well, pundit, has a pretty definite PoV and, IMO, is sticking to it. The idea that RPGs are "games first" and either not art (?) or at very best "art second" isn't easy to debate away: most of these things are pretty darn game-like. Most of what is considered art is not especially game-like.

Even without a debate, anything that would sit on a shelf with things that call themselves RPGs has a ways to go before it is clearly more art than game.

So basically I don't see a conflict on any of the important points.

That said:
I do want to know what Brian thinks the pundit did wrong and I'm foggy on what, specifically, the straw-man is.

-Marco

I agree with Levi. I also agree with marco, that Levi is not a particularly typical candidate for the "Swine" point of view. Then again the typical Swine would be incapable of putting together an argument long enough to last for a 10-post argument, much less a 100-post disputation.

No one is going to convince anyone of anything here. The claim of "winning or losing" comes down to a popularity contest, which I note that most of the Swine rushed to vote in, and most of the non-Swine made a point of avoiding.

I mean, shit, I could be arguing with a mental defective and reduce him to a broken-down puddle of tears and guys like Maddman and Nikchick would still claim the other guy won.

RPGPundit

Persecution complex much?

Quote from: MarcoI do want to know what Brian thinks the pundit did wrong and I'm foggy on what, specifically, the straw-man is.

His biggest error was that he didn't insist on a real debate.

Such a debate should have a specific subject- Examples "Resolved: The Forge is bad for the rpg hobby", "Resolved: GNS is a elitist theory without merit" or "The movement to make RPGs Art is good for the hobby".

Further one side or the other should have taken the Affirmative with both first word (to frame the debate) and last word.

A limit of 20 posts would have been better.


As it went:

The subject is too wide, the exchange too long. That means RPGPundit has to deal with too much and his best points will be lost to the mass of the thread.

Further he let Levi get away with framing the debate. Thus Levi avoided all of his strongest anti-swine talking points by just agreeing with them (GNS) or refusing to engage. Levi was allowed to set up tastes in gaming as defensive stances- thus making certain he couldn't lose on logic or envidence.


I was very disappointed.

I'm winning because I'm not reading it.  :win:

Quote from: gleichmanHis biggest error was that he didn't insist on a real debate.

Such a debate should have a specific subject- Examples "Resolved: The Forge is bad for the rpg hobby", "Resolved: GNS is a elitist theory without merit" or "The movement to make RPGs Art is good for the hobby".

Further one side or the other should have taken the Affirmative with both first word (to frame the debate) and last word.

A limit of 20 posts would have been better.

These are all points I intend to use in later debates with others; this is the first time I've even seen something like this done, much less attempted it.

Quote from: gleichmanThe subject is too wide, the exchange too long. That means RPGPundit has to deal with too much and his best points will be lost to the mass of the thread.

The same could be said on my side as well.

Quote from: gleichmanFurther he let Levi get away with framing the debate. Thus Levi avoided all of his strongest anti-swine talking points by just agreeing with them (GNS) or refusing to engage. Levi was allowed to set up tastes in gaming as defensive stances- thus making certain he couldn't lose on logic or envidence.

I said I'd argue for my more "swinish" opinions, not on behalf of all persons that the Pundit objects to.

That said, I'd like to see someone that does have positive opinions on those topics, and the necessary fortitude, engage him on those specific topics.

I allowed Levi to frame the debate, its only fair, given that I in turn will have the last word.

I don't think the kind of debate you're imagining is what either of us had in mind,  because it would require both of us, at times, to argue positions that were not our own.  This is more of a disputation than a debate; a spirited discussion between two relative-experts from different ideological camps, arguing not the position of their camp as a whole but their individual interpretations of it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: PookaPersecution complex much?

You really honestly believe that Nikchick or Maddman thought long and hard about what to vote in this poll? Do you really think that their vote has more to do with the nature of the debate than with their personal dislike of me? Do you really honestly think that they'd have voted any other way, ever?

I mean fuck, just asking the very question of "who's winning", much less actually voting to say "x is winning" suggests to me that one has probably not read very much of the thread.

RPGPundit

: puffs a doobie :

Man, you're takin this shit way too seriously.

Quote from: Pooka: puffs a doobie :

Man, you're takin this shit way too seriously.

You are my new hero.

Quote from: Pooka: puffs a doobie :

Man, you're takin this shit way too seriously.

Shit, I've been sayin this from the git-go. Although I agree mostly with RPGPundit, I think all the talk about this crap is silly (usually not even the fun silly). All this "theory" crap and "GNS" silliness leads me to believe that some of us around here are putting way more mental energy into these games than I ever would have thought even possible. Hell, before coming to these boards I don't recall ever having even heard of this "Forge" site before (thankfully). Give me Paladin flamewars and discussions on the merits of +5 Vorpal Butterknives over Keen Dancing Chosticks any day.

I'm not all Mr. Aloof though either because, to my horror, I keep reading the damn threads.



:eek:

Quote from: RPGPunditYou really honestly believe that Nikchick or Maddman thought long and hard about what to vote in this poll? Do you really think that their vote has more to do with the nature of the debate than with their personal dislike of me? Do you really honestly think that they'd have voted any other way, ever?

Dude, what makes you think I don't like you?  I told you I think you're the funniest motherfucker on nutkinland.  I haven't quite figured out if you're doing it on purpose or not, but that doesn't keep me from laughing.

Quote from: RPGPunditNo one is going to convince anyone of anything here. The claim of "winning or losing" comes down to a popularity contest, which I note that most of the Swine rushed to vote in, and most of the non-Swine made a point of avoiding.

:blahblah:

My god you're a poor loser.

Quote from: CyberzombieI'm winning because I'm not reading it.  :win:

Do I win because I agree with you?:heh:

Quote from: Nikchick:blahblah:

My god you're a poor loser.

You know, there's a certain thrill to watching an industry figure from the small side* of the industry snarking back and forth with someone that is basically a wandering internet loudmouth.**

It gives me hope of being taken seriously.

*As in, "Not Wizards of the Coast".  Green Ronin is a good and apparently growing company, it's just playing not against the big boy right now.

**Which is, let's face it, what I am, too.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenYou know, there's a certain thrill to watching an industry figure from the small side* of the industry snarking back and forth with someone that is basically a wandering internet loudmouth.**

It gives me hope of being taken seriously.

You shoulda been here that time Monte Cook told Snoweel to fuck off.  :D

Quote from: MaddmanYou shoulda been here that time Monte Cook told Snoweel to fuck off. :D

No way!  Now that's internet fame! :heh:

Quote from: MaddmanYou shoulda been here that time Monte Cook told Snoweel to fuck off.  :D

I could take a shot at Mearls...

...If I had one to take...

...Damn.  I'm doomed.

Quote from: MaddmanYou shoulda been here that time Monte Cook told Snoweel to fuck off.  :D

I have a whole list of 'names' that told me the same. Is that worth anything?

Quote from: Nikchick:blahblah:

My god you're a poor loser.

Making you upset doesn't bother me, Nikchick dear, it tickles me with joy.

Knowing how much I get to you, thats priceless.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditMaking you upset doesn't bother me, Nikchick dear, it tickles me with joy.

Knowing how much I get to you, thats priceless.

Well then we're both happy as clams, sweetie-pie; I'm not hanging out here because you upset me. Far from it. You've been amusing the hell out of me! (I hope it's not too much of a blow to you to hear this, I know a big part of the thrill for you is imagining that you cause me "conniptions"; I'm sorry I can't oblige.)

It's true that I couldn't afford to let you to perform your show on my boards as it's against my commercial interests to allow my customers to be derided as "swine" on my company's official site.  But Nutkinland is all about the fun, and it's clear that what's fun for you is to rage around playing the arrogant cock.  So you go, man, knock yourself out. I have every confidence that the Nutkins can roll with it and keep things amusing.  :heh:

Quote from: CyberzombieI'm winning because I'm not reading it.  :win:

Then I must be winning as well.

Quote from: MaddmanYou shoulda been here that time Monte Cook told Snoweel to fuck off.  :D

He (Monte) also called me a very strange man for what I intended to do with RttToEE and BESM d20.  Shame that never got anywhere - "Sailor Ettin" was a great concept.  Happy days

Quote from: CyberzombieI'm winning because I'm not reading it.  :win:

Same here. :D

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonHe (Monte) also called me a very strange man for what I intended to do with RttToEE and BESM d20.  Shame that never got anywhere - "Sailor Ettin" was a great concept.  Happy days

I wish there was a chance for a bunch of us to play that out in person.  Mega dungeons and pbp don't get along very well.

The problem has already been stated: Levi is not as antagonistic in his teachings as it would be needed for declaring someone a "winner".
And who really wins is the hobby as a whole. The resulting "midterm" statements are very good stuff.
 
BTW, I don´t like snappy one liners. They make the place uncomfortable and distract from any discussion through lampoonation. Of course my opinion might not carry any weight here whatsoever, but still I want to utter my concern on behalf of those who happen to experience the same feelings.

Quote from: NikchickWell then we're both happy as clams, sweetie-pie; I'm not hanging out here because you upset me. Far from it. You've been amusing the hell out of me! (I hope it's not too much of a blow to you to hear this, I know a big part of the thrill for you is imagining that you cause me "conniptions"; I'm sorry I can't oblige.)

It's true that I couldn't afford to let you to perform your show on my boards as it's against my commercial interests to allow my customers to be derided as "swine" on my company's official site.  But Nutkinland is all about the fun, and it's clear that what's fun for you is to rage around playing the arrogant cock.  So you go, man, knock yourself out. I have every confidence that the Nutkins can roll with it and keep things amusing.  :heh:

You keep telling yourself that, little lady. How's the super ultra-secret mod team doing, by the way?

RPGPundit

Lemon Curry?

Quote from: RPGPunditLemon Curry?

"Other", I believe.

Also, I like the sound of it.

Lemon Curry.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen"Other", I believe.

Also, I like the sound of it.

Lemon Curry.

Someone hasn't watched enough Monty Python. Eh, kids these days.

RPGPundit

I'm enjoying it a great deal.  It's interesting to see some of the RPG theory debates crystalised in such a coherent manner.

As far as individual performance, I think rpgpundit is being held back by two things.  

The first problem, which is not his fault, is that he's criticising an attitude which people don't tend to publically articulate.  No one goes around saying "my hobbies make me smarter/more sophisticated than you", not least because it would be hard to pronounce that "/".  In trying to prove that kind of attitude exists all you can really do is point to patterns of behaviour that reveal an underlying attitude, and that's always going to be vulnerable to a nitpicking "where did he actually say he felt that way" defence.  
I think that problem is compounded if the best public example of patterns of conduct, rpg.net is ruled to be off-topic.  I think that makes it impossible to nail-down attitudes among the "swine" without them actually publically declaring that they're better than everyone else.
(The other reason pundit's struggling to make the "people who like wanky rpgs are, themselves, wankers" argument stick is that Levi is obviously a very nice, balanced guy who clearly doesn't hold those views himself.  In an important sense, Levi's is cheating by being so reasonable and pleasant)

Second, I think pundit is going further than the facts will support (and I, suspect, further than he privately agrees) with the whole "rules have no influence on game tone/ability to emulate a genre" argument.  He keeps having to say "flexible rules are the best, I can move the game away from combat just with my great GMing chops, specific rules are unnecessary, except for these four specific rules in these systems which I like".  No one who has gone to the effort of designing their own game, or of criticising the entire genre of superhero games because the rules don't match genre conventions, as pundit has, truly believes that rule sets are irrelevant to the tone of gameplay.  He can run with the "I've certainly done that with d20 and had no problem" as much as he wants, because ultimately that argument is not falsifiable, but I think his actions bely his stated position - I think he's letting D20 fanboyism interefer with his better judgment.

In summary:  Interesting thread, thanks guys.  Pundit is in an unfair position in being asked to prove an underlying attitude that people don't express in polite company without recourse to the obvious examples.  Pundit has put himself in a stupid position by trying to argue a very broad conception of rules-neutrality.

Lemon Curry is always an option on NKL polls - it's tradition.

Quote from: LacemakerThe first problem, which is not his fault, is that he's criticising an attitude which people don't tend to publically articulate.  No one goes around saying "my hobbies make me smarter/more sophisticated than you", not least because it would be hard to pronounce that "/".

I think the problem lies with his need to paint all theorists or game designers who believe in RPG=art as hoity toity elistist bastards. While pointing at certain well-known individuals at the forefront of the theory movement certainly works, the thesis that all "artistes" are pretentious and therefore design crappy games is much harder to defend. Thus far, he's relied on the idea that a lot of indie games don't sell as well as D&D. Unfortunately, this is like saying that a burger from McDonald's tastes better than my mom's cooking because it sells better. Not that I think D&D is like crappy burgers. I think it's a quality game. The point is that a game does not need to break into the market to be a quality niche game.

I actually think his other arguments - like the need for theories to account for why D&D is as popular as it is - are on much better ground.

Quote from: LacemakerSecond, I think pundit is going further than the facts will support (and I, suspect, further than he privately agrees) with the whole "rules have no influence on game tone/ability to emulate a genre" argument.  He keeps having to say "flexible rules are the best, I can move the game away from combat just with my great GMing chops, specific rules are unnecessary, except for these four specific rules in these systems which I like".

I think what RPGPundit is getting at here is that there's no point in having niche products as tightly focused as games like Dogs in the Vineyard when other, more mainstream games can be adapted to the same purpose. The idea is that a group is able to develop their own playstyle and if they want to engage in "storytelling", they can certainly go ahead and do that with mainstream games. I personally disagree with him on this point (I'm utterly convinced that I could never have the same experience playing d20 DitV as DitV as designed, for instance).

Quote from: PookaLemon Curry is always an option on NKL polls - it's tradition.

Either that, or (I am) Brannich Blacksmoke.

Quote from: LacemakerIn an important sense, Levi's is cheating by being so reasonable and pleasant

This has to be the best line that I've read so far today, thank you Lacemaker!!:bow:

Lemon Curry,

It is good for Gumps, Gollyweasles, Knacks, Drops, the Cold Robbies, Lackanookie, the Mexican Two-Step, Creeping Macarenas, and Whacks.

Quote from: LacemakerIn an important sense, Levi's is cheating by being so reasonable and pleasant

We could both get a lot more :grumpy: but we'd be likely to turn the whole thread into a :hissyfit: if we did.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWe could both get a lot more :grumpy: but we'd be likely to turn the whole thread into a :hissyfit: if we did.

Levi, if you wouldn't mind, could you post that text from the WoD book you guys  mentioned? I haven't read the new WW books and I'm curious.

By the way, I havent' seen a debate like this on _any_ RPG forum (it'd be impossible in some, as a matter of fact), so thumbs up to both of you.

Quote from: JongWKLevi, if you wouldn't mind, could you post that text from the WoD book you guys  mentioned? I haven't read the new WW books and I'm curious.

By the way, I havent' seen a debate like this on _any_ RPG forum (it'd be impossible in some, as a matter of fact), so thumbs up to both of you.

Okay.  Here's the nastiest bit, from the very end.

Quote from: The WoD Core Rulebook, page 188Don't deride those who see gaming as a fun hobby (which it is), or those whose roleplaying stories don't aim higher.  Instead, encourage and peruade players to stretch their boundaries.  Storytelling is about achieving something great through an interactive tale, but not at the expense of fun.

And now I feel somewhat dirty.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenAnd now I feel somewhat dirty.

You should.

The quote is highly condescending.

That's not actually the entire quote:

"And that brings us to Storytelling.  Many roleplaying games are more concerned with rules and statistics than the drama created within the game. Some people call those roll-playing games, since they're more focused on dice rolling than role-playing. Storytelling certainly provides for a simple and consistent set of rules, but it seeks more than just dice rolls and character sheets."

Also:

"Unlike child's play or corporate roleplaying, Storytelling can strive to be an art form."

And this isn't 1990, this is fucking 2004.  So for any of the fuckhead Swine out there who claim that White Wolf isn't all about the pretentious pseudo-artistry and hatred for mainstream gamers, the prosecution rests.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThat's not actually the entire quote:

I just wanted to illustrate the kind of shit that's there, but fair enough.

Yeah that is pretty retarded, and overall feels out of place with the rest of the game.  Almost as bad as the 'The scientists have lied to you' crap they put on the back of Exalted.

Heck, Nobilis's corresponding bit is much better than this, saying something like 'if you never address any deep themes or have a complex storyline but everyone has fun, then who cares?  Your game is a success.'  And Nobilis is supposed to be pretentious!

Quote from: MaddmanHeck, Nobilis's corresponding bit is much better than this, saying something like 'if you never address any deep themes or have a complex storyline but everyone has fun, then who cares?  Your game is a success.'  And Nobilis is supposed to be pretentious!

If the rest of the book is pretentious, a little paragraph up front isn't going to alter the general impression- nor should it.

Note: have not seen Nobilis, and thus have no specific opinion on it.

Quote from: RPGPundit"Unlike child's play or corporate roleplaying, Storytelling can strive to be an art form."

Man, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at this one. I love how some companies in the RPG industry essentially say, "Don't give your money to those corporate bastards! Instead, spend all your money on us! We're not corporate. We only ask for money because, um, we think really harsh thoughts about George Bush when we spend our money on consumerist crap."

Quote from: gleichmanYou should.

The quote is highly condescending.

Condescending?

It's like the fucking "White Man's Burden" of RPGs. If that's their version of enlightenment, I think I'd rather sit in the dark of my 20 x 20 room.

Quote from: RPGPundit(snip)

and

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen(snip)

Ow. Just... ow.

Quote from: mearlsMan, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at this one. I love how some companies in the RPG industry essentially say, "Don't give your money to those corporate bastards! Instead, spend all your money on us! We're not corporate. We only ask for money because, um, we think really harsh thoughts about George Bush when we spend our money on consumerist crap."

It's the rebel sell. (http://www.thismagazine.ca/issues/2002/11/rebelsell.php)

Quote from: mearlsMan, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at this one. I love how some companies in the RPG industry essentially say, "Don't give your money to those corporate bastards! Instead, spend all your money on us! We're not corporate. We only ask for money because, um, we think really harsh thoughts about George Bush when we spend our money on consumerist crap."

Good to see that someone can laugh at it.

I have to put up with being associated with it - my sense of humor on such stuff has been pretty thoroughly stripped away.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenGood to see that someone can laugh at it.

I have to put up with being associated with it - my sense of humor on such stuff has been pretty thoroughly stripped away.

I wouldn't worry about it. That entire quote is pure marketing bullshit. It's all about making the guy who's trying to decide between WoD and some other system think, "Well, this game is ART. The other one isn't."

This is the sort of stuff that's at the root of Ron Edward's burning, endless rage against WW. You basically have a system that has all the capital S storytelling potential of D&D, Rifts, GURPS, or whatever, but it's sold as the next thing in high art.

WW is in the business of selling games. Like Lost Soul points out, this is just another gimmick to move books. It's like the alterna-music dude who rattles off a list of a dozen rare or obscure albums he owns and enjoys. That same guy would spew venom at anyone who bragged about their expensive SUV, but at his core his behavior is exactly the same.

Quote from: mearlsMan, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at this one. I love how some companies in the RPG industry essentially say, "Don't give your money to those corporate bastards! Instead, spend all your money on us! We're not corporate. We only ask for money because, um, we think really harsh thoughts about George Bush when we spend our money on consumerist crap."

Um, I think the term 'corporate roleplaying' refers to the business training method (http://www.salescreators.com/Section3/roleplay.html) of role playing work situations, not any particular RPG company.

Quote from: mearlsI wouldn't worry about it. That entire quote is pure marketing bullshit. It's all about making the guy who's trying to decide between WoD and some other system think, "Well, this game is ART. The other one isn't."

I enjoyed WW games. My favourite was Mage. But I always got a "something was rotten in Denmark" vibe from the company. I remember reading a magazine called White Wolf(I think) and it was okay at first but the tone slowly changed and it become Infobia (or something like that) a tome of the highest wankery. Not saying that WW had any direct connection with this mag(they may have....like I always say I'm not to hip to the industry-was it a kind of Wotc/Dragon mag relationship)but the way how their games/product were discussed in the mag did them a great disservice(well at least in my opinion)

Regards,
David R

The Pundit´s wrong, big time:

QuoteI mean fuck, you'd probably get more Frenchmen drinking british beers if the beer was made from high quality grapes from southern france, but then it wouldn't be beer anymore, would it?

There is no such thing as british beer.

Quote from: CADmonkeyUm, I think the term 'corporate roleplaying' refers to the business training method (http://www.salescreators.com/Section3/roleplay.html) of role playing work situations, not any particular RPG company.

I read it that way too, even though my english is sad.

I have seen Mr. Mearls work to read.  It is very good and Mr. Mearls has no need of a ship on his shoulder so large that it blocks his eyes.

Quote from: CADmonkeyUm, I think the term 'corporate roleplaying' refers to the business training method (http://www.salescreators.com/Section3/roleplay.html) of role playing work situations, not any particular RPG company.

I've never heard of it refered to as "corporate roleplaying" before. I hope you're right, because otherwise the quote is just sad.

Quote from: Harry JoyI remember the first time I was introduced to "business training via roleplaying." It was about the saddest thing I ever saw. Early '90s. Many companies still do it. And it's still just sad.

I hope I never have to do that, because I don't think I could resist responding to the coworker acting in an overly critical manner with my +3 longsword and 18/00 Strength.

Quote from: MaddmanI hope I never have to do that, because I don't think I could resist responding to the coworker acting in an overly critical manner with my +3 longsword and 18/00 Strength.

Ah, then you haven't seen the episode of Cracker where Fitz was teaching a bunch of executives how to properly fire someone.  He pulled a gun on one of them.

Quote from: MaddmanI hope I never have to do that, because I don't think I could resist responding to the coworker acting in an overly critical manner with my +3 longsword and 18/00 Strength.

Ain't that considered harrasment?

:naughty:

Still...

+3 Longsword.  I'm sure they'd be impressed.

Quote from: mearlsMan, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at this one. I love how some companies in the RPG industry essentially say, "Don't give your money to those corporate bastards! Instead, spend all your money on us! We're not corporate. We only ask for money because, um, we think really harsh thoughts about George Bush when we spend our money on consumerist crap."

Not really. It's referring to roleplaying as a management training thing. 'Cause to step out of gazing at our navels for a second, far more people associate roleplaying with (in no special order):

1) Managerial trust and team-building exercises.
2) Psychotherapy.
3) Sexual kink.
4) Computer games.

. . . than they do with the products of the pen and paper gaming hobby.

The thing I find amusing about these critiques is that they primarily offend the very grognards who bitch and moan about taking gaming lightly. The irony is, of course, that old terms like "roll-playing" (along with "powergaming" as a perjorative and "minmaxing") are terms that real gamers use at real tables, instead of terms that have been eaten and shat out by somebody's internet community or favoured school of thought. Thus, objecting to them (and referring to "corporate" roleplaying) really puts the lie to anybody who claims they give a shit about how most people play RPGs at all.

I love you, Levi Kornelson, but not as much as I love lemon curry.

All Hail Lemon Curry!
:pope:



Lemon Curry died for your sins.
:crucify:

Quote from: RPGPunditThat's not actually the entire quote:

"And that brings us to Storytelling.  Many roleplaying games are more concerned with rules and statistics than the drama created within the game. Some people call those roll-playing games, since they're more focused on dice rolling than role-playing. Storytelling certainly provides for a simple and consistent set of rules, but it seeks more than just dice rolls and character sheets."

Also:

"Unlike child's play or corporate roleplaying, Storytelling can strive to be an art form."

And this isn't 1990, this is fucking 2004.  So for any of the fuckhead Swine out there who claim that White Wolf isn't all about the pretentious pseudo-artistry and hatred for mainstream gamers, the prosecution rests.

RPGPundit

Greetings!

Hello RPGPundit.:) I can certainly agree that this quote demonstrates how smug, self-righteous and elitist White Wolf is, but who cares? White Wolf philosophy is for idiots. I know many gamers who could care fucking less about White Wolf. Believe it or not, a decent number of them have no fucking idea who White Wolf is.:) From the beginning, White Wolf really only appealed to left-wing, feminist, anti-capitalist, pretentious, self-righteous, angst-filled self-loathing adolescents anyways. I've always figured that was pretty obvious from their earliest products. I mean, come on! Their smug, self-righteous ideology literally *dripped* from every fucking page of their early products. Obviously, from your quote, some things never change.:)

As far as SWINE go, do SWINE really deny this? I actually bought a few of the early White Wolf books way back when--werewolf and vampire--and after reading them threw them into a closet and haven't touched 'em since. Their pathetic ideology bleeding through on every fucking page drove me nuts, and turned me off of them entirely. In short order, I really didn't give a shit about any "mechanical" innovations or systemics that they may have designed--their ideology told me everything I needed to know and what I could expect from them. The fucking White Wolf "system"--such as it is--seemed then, and apparently now as well--as nothing more than window dressing for an exercise in radical, ideological fantasies masquerading as a roleplaying game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARKGreetings!
 I mean, come on! Their smug, self-righteous ideology literally *dripped* from every fucking page of their early products. Obviously, from your quote, some things never change.:)

Yup. Except many people like to pretend that they have changed.

QuoteAs far as SWINE go, do SWINE really deny this?

You'd be amazed how many do; or how many claim that my complaints about WW are "out of date".

QuoteI really didn't give a shit about any "mechanical" innovations or systemics that they may have designed--their ideology told me everything I needed to know and what I could expect from them. The fucking White Wolf "system"--such as it is--seemed then, and apparently now as well--as nothing more than window dressing for an exercise in radical, ideological fantasies masquerading as a roleplaying game.

Not to mention that there was fuck all that was mechanically innovative about the WW system.

RPGPundit

I could probably be characterised as 'left-wing, feminist and anti-capitalist' (and--certainly in my younger days--'pretentious, self-righteous and angst-filled'), but I always thought WW were kind of dorky. Just trying a bit too hard to be really cool.

Quote from: SHARKGreetings!

From the beginning, White Wolf really only appealed to left-wing, feminist, anti-capitalist, pretentious, self-righteous, angst-filled self-loathing adolescents anyways.

Dude! I'm a left-wing, feminist, anti-capitalist, pretentions, self-righteous, angst-filled self-loathing adolescent! I've finally found out my True Identity and it was all due to White Wolf and SHARK!

:win:

Now I must go find my card-carrying comrades, say nasty things about men, and emo all over the house.

Quote from: Lady LakiraI'm a left-wing,

I think so, generally.

Quote from: Lady Lakirafeminist,

Certainly femi-something....

Quote from: Lady Lakiraanti-capitalist,

Uh, is that even possible, in practical terms?

Quote from: Lady Lakirapretentious,

Ironic.

Quote from: Lady Lakiraself-righteous,

Snarky.

Quote from: Lady Lakiraangst-filled

Ironic.   Again.

Quote from: Lady Lakiraself-loathing

Melodramatic, on occasion.  Usually for humor.

Quote from: Lady Lakiraadolescent!

Your SO will be upset to hear it.

Quote from: Lady LakiraNow I must go find my card-carrying comrades, say nasty things about men, and emo all over the house.

You're going to say nasty things about me, aren't you?

Admit it!

Quote from: Levi KornelsenUh, is that even possible, in practical terms?

I'm communist when I'm broke. I'm capitalist when I have money. This makes perfect practical sense in my own little world.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenSnarky.

Awwww, you do care!

Quote from: Levi KornelsenYour SO will be upset to hear it.

Nah. She's a cradle-robber at heart.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenYou're going to say nasty things about me, aren't you?

Admit it!

You like it, baby.

Quote from: SHARKAs far as SWINE go, do SWINE really deny this? I actually bought a few of the early White Wolf books way back when--werewolf and vampire--and after reading them threw them into a closet and haven't touched 'em since. Their pathetic ideology bleeding through on every fucking page drove me nuts, and turned me off of them entirely. In short order, I really didn't give a shit about any "mechanical" innovations or systemics that they may have designed--their ideology told me everything I needed to know and what I could expect from them. The fucking White Wolf "system"--such as it is--seemed then, and apparently now as well--as nothing more than window dressing for an exercise in radical, ideological fantasies masquerading as a roleplaying game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Well, first of all keep in mind there isn't *really* any such thing as "Swine", outside of Pundit's fevered delusions.  I only started calling myself that to mock the very idea that there's a horde plotting to destroy gaming.

And yeah, early White Wolf was pretty strongly ideological in their lines, and that did turn some people off.  But they have by and large grown up.  The new werewolf has dropped the whole 'Eco-warriors fighting against evil corporations' angle entirely.  Mage stopped treating the Technocracy entirely, and stopped treating them as the bad guy awhile back (inspiring some great flame wars for fans of the game at the time).  I'm not sure what the ideology would have been in the original Vampire, but from what I understand the current game is little like the original, focusing more on the personal horror instead of metaplots and global conspiracies.

And Exalted has no ideology at all, from what I've been able to tell.  From what I've heard of your gaming, SHARK, I would guess that Exalted would be a game you'd enjoy.  It's a fantasy game about larger than life heroes, reborn heroes of a lost age come back to lead humanity into a new golden age.  Or maybe destroy it.  I mean Cyberzombie likes Exalted, it can't be too Swinish.  :)

So did White Wolf put out some PC crap in the 90s?  Yeah, they did.  A lot of companies did, including TSR with the 'cleaning' of D&D.  They've left that behind for the most part - that quote is pretty crappy and I don't agree with the content of it, but to be honest it's a bit misplaced in the rest of the book.  I've not seen any paticular ideology pushed in the core book, just a horror game.

Quote from: MaddmanWell, first of all keep in mind there isn't *really* any such thing as "Swine", outside of Pundit's fevered delusions.  I only started calling myself that to mock the very idea that there's a horde plotting to destroy gaming.

You mean there is no real war. Jeebus, Maddman you should have said something to me before I went and replaced pages of the new edition of D&D with pages of the new edition of Nobillis :D

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RYou mean there is no real war. Jeebus, Maddman you should have said something to me before I went and replaced pages of the new edition of D&D with pages of the new edition of Nobillis :D

Regards,
David R

Exellent!  Now if we can only replace all d20s with instructions on how to play rock-paper-scissors and fire the Homotron 3000 at the GURPS table at GenCon my master plan will be complete!

Quote from: MaddmanExellent!  Now if we can only replace all d20s with instructions on how to play rock-paper-scissors and fire the Homotron 3000 at the GURPS table at GenCon my master plan will be complete!

Your plans will come to fruition, because as you always tell the faithful, the Pundit has proxies but you have idiot(ic) savants. :)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: MaddmanWell, first of all keep in mind there isn't *really* any such thing as "Swine", outside of Pundit's fevered delusions.  I only started calling myself that to mock the very idea that there's a horde plotting to destroy gaming.

And yeah, early White Wolf was pretty strongly ideological in their lines, and that did turn some people off.  But they have by and large grown up.  The new werewolf has dropped the whole 'Eco-warriors fighting against evil corporations' angle entirely.  Mage stopped treating the Technocracy entirely, and stopped treating them as the bad guy awhile back (inspiring some great flame wars for fans of the game at the time).  I'm not sure what the ideology would have been in the original Vampire, but from what I understand the current game is little like the original, focusing more on the personal horror instead of metaplots and global conspiracies.

And Exalted has no ideology at all, from what I've been able to tell.  From what I've heard of your gaming, SHARK, I would guess that Exalted would be a game you'd enjoy.  It's a fantasy game about larger than life heroes, reborn heroes of a lost age come back to lead humanity into a new golden age.  Or maybe destroy it.  I mean Cyberzombie likes Exalted, it can't be too Swinish.  :)

So did White Wolf put out some PC crap in the 90s?  Yeah, they did.  A lot of companies did, including TSR with the 'cleaning' of D&D.  They've left that behind for the most part - that quote is pretty crappy and I don't agree with the content of it, but to be honest it's a bit misplaced in the rest of the book.  I've not seen any paticular ideology pushed in the core book, just a horror game.

Well, there you have it Shark. They can and do deny it, all weight of evidence to the contrary.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWell, there you have it Shark. They can and do deny it, all weight of evidence to the contrary.

RPGPundit

What? That White Wolf indulges political stances? Sure. They indulged lots and lots of different ones. Sometimes it depended on the freelancer and sometimes it depended on development intentionally giving different groups various political viewpoints. This has led to a few amusing assumptions in the Mage line, for example, where some dystopian stuff was taken as being utopian and vice versa.

The common theme seems to be, as usual, that many people have no idea how White Wolf books -- or any commercial RPG books -- are actually put together.

Quote from: MaddmanAnd yeah, early White Wolf was pretty strongly ideological in their lines, and that did turn some people off.  But they have by and large grown up.  The new werewolf has dropped the whole 'Eco-warriors fighting against evil corporations' angle entirely.  Mage stopped treating the Technocracy entirely, and stopped treating them as the bad guy awhile back (inspiring some great flame wars for fans of the game at the time).  I'm not sure what the ideology would have been in the original Vampire, but from what I understand the current game is little like the original, focusing more on the personal horror instead of metaplots and global conspiracies.

And Exalted has no ideology at all, from what I've been able to tell.

Actually, the funny thing is that Exalted was intentionally designed with a very specific political stance, and the World of Darkness wasn't. And I don't mean a POV you could make political when you wrote something. I mean that Grabowski's development notes told you exactly what Exalted is supposed to be a metaphor for. Meanwhile, you have games such as Werewolf, which was broadly about ecology and kicking ass, but intentionally made the tribes as politically diverse as possible.

QuoteThe common theme seems to be, as usual, that many people have no idea how White Wolf books -- or any commercial RPG books -- are actually put together.

Wrong. I for one know, that most RPGs outside WoTC or Malhavoc are typed up by some underpaid semi-fanboy who is able to write a grammatically correct sentence as qualification. The results are dependant on his personal motivation and skills. Thus we get all kinds of c-class would-be-novelist drivel, politics, gender issues, PowerMechaSuperGodling or what have you into the gaming books. Then the weirdest typos are cleared out, without any serious playtest.
That leads to the [for me lovable] mess of continuity and broken rules that Palladium´s products are, or to WoD-stuff, which I personally don´t like. Generally it´s worse than Star Trek in regards to maintaining in-Universe rules and continuity what we see in the Hobby.

Face it: There is no quality control in non WoTC products. Thus quality is elusive in Gaming and only happens under unlikely circumstances. Some people, who are mostly DMs, are satisfied with getting half-baked ideas or kewl vistas for getting their juices started (like it is with me and Rifts), but the general gaming populace demands playtested quality, and rightly so.

Do you actually know what a developer does?

As for WotC: Check out a WotC errata or a John Cooper review on ENWorld some time. For profitable print companies, they're about average.

Quote from: SettembriniFace it: There is no quality control in non WoTC products. Thus quality is elusive in Gaming and only happens under unlikely circumstances. Some people, who are mostly DMs, are satisfied with getting half-baked ideas or kewl vistas for getting their juices started (like it is with me and Rifts), but the general gaming populace demands playtested quality, and rightly so.

*ahem*

Polaris did serious, 3-cycle, year-long playtesting.  The games I'm working on right now are in playtest right now, Bliss Stage in 2nd cycle.  Almost all the forgie games I know of did heavy playtesting.  Amber was seriously playtested for years.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  I totally agree that heavy playtesting is required for any game.  I disagree that Wizards is the only one who does it.

Polaris is a niche game. It´s not a game line.
System/game line = D&D, Harnmaster, Traveller, WoD
More power to you and the forge, but as I said, playtesting is dependent on the work ethic of the people responsible for final publishing.

@WoTC: Of course they are just average, it´s gaming not rocket science. But most games are way below that. Look at another of my personal favorites: GDW.3

@Forge: The whole reason for many Forge games is to make COHERENT games which obviously the regular channels aren´t able to produce. Which only supports my point.

Quote from: Settembrini@WoTC: Of course they are just average, it´s gaming not rocket science. But most games are way below that. Look at another of my personal favorites: GDW.3

GDW has been dead for what? A decade? They aren't really a successful game company. And for comparison, you should look at counterparts made during that period. Technology has definitely helped raise standards. For a comparison by period, swing by Dragonsfoot for the Rules Cyclopedia errata.

This is one reason why Palladium has problem with QA. They are about a decade behind in actual production technology, right down to wax and photostat.

Quote@Forge: The whole reason for many Forge games is to make COHERENT games which obviously the regular channels aren´t able to produce. Which only supports my point.

*snicker* If RPG were all 50,000 words or less I'm sure they'd be *damn* coherent. If you want a valid point of comparison look at The Riddle of Steel or The Burning Wheel, which are standard length works from author-driven channels. They're the same to slightly worse than company lines, except for being very poorly organized. Mind you, both are great games -- its why I have them on hand.

I think we mean the same, Eyebeamz. Nearly all bigger game lines suffer from the Star Trek syndrome, and are written by semi-professionals. Wereas some Forge game, whith only one book and no financial pressure can take all the time they want with playtesting. It´s like comparing short artiste movies with TV shows in their 4th season.

Quote from: SettembriniI think we mean the same, Eyebeamz. Nearly all bigger game lines suffer from the Star Trek syndrome, and are written by semi-professionals. Wereas some Forge game, whith only one book and no financial pressure can take all the time they want with playtesting. It´s like comparing short artiste movies with TV shows in their 4th season.

Not really, no. I mean that lots of these RPGs have a smaller wordcount. It's easier to keep things consistent in a smaller wordcount, wheras a game that sacrifices openness for brevity is, frankly, quite a bit easier to get down right.

If you look at a larger self-published game, though, you see all the isues that exist with full game lines, and then some. The Riddle of Steel is, for example, an innovative game with terrible organization. The magic system is very powerful but instead of justifying it through the internal logic of the system and design aims, they toss in an Ron Edwards essay where he begs you to like the magic system.

(The funny thing is that this desperate measure is something that I've seen once in other writing too, and it, too, was to preemtively defend a game system from being seriously examined.)

As for playtesting: Every line I've worked on has had all major supplements go through playtesting. I personally playtest everything I work on as well. I can tell you for a fact, too that playtesting brings negative feedback almost as much as it does positive.

QuoteI can tell you for a fact, too that playtesting brings negative feedback almost as much as it does positive

:confused:

Which is the whole point in playtesting, not to get your drivel applauded!

Well but I am elsewise of your opinion:
It´s not  nearly a big a feat to polish a small game, than to match in 20 new PrCs without unbalancing the whole D&D-iverse.

Quote from: Settembrini:confused:

Which is the whole point in playtesting, not to get your drivel applauded!

No, you don't get it. Many criticisms are of things that were changed because of playtesting, *after* they were playtested. I've read people grouching over rules on many occasions where they wanted a different rule that playtesting proved didn't work very well. Or the fans get the math wrong.

QuoteWell but I am elsewise of your opinion:
It´s not  nearly a big a feat to polish a small game, than to match in 20 new PrCs without unbalancing the whole D&D-iverse.

It's pretty easy to make most PrCs, since they use the basic template of an existing class. In fact, PrCs are almost too easy to make, to the point where there are a lot of pointless PrCs around. Alternate class abilities and new feats are rapidly making many third party PrCs obsolete.

QuoteMany criticisms are of things that were changed because of playtesting, *after* they were playtested. I've read people grouching over rules on many occasions where they wanted a different rule that playtesting proved didn't work very well. Or the fans get the math wrong.

Playtesting is not for making a rule popular, but to make it balanced within the context of the pictured universe.

Quote from: SettembriniPlaytesting is not for making a rule popular, but to make it balanced within the context of the pictured universe.

While you're generally correct, game designers do like their rules to be spoken of well by the people that helped test and refine them.

Some people that help test and refine rules are grumpy when something that feels right, but doesn't balance, gets junked.

That part of playtesting sucks.

The part where they kick the crap out of the rules, and you remake them to work better, that's fun.  Uh, at least, to me.

QuoteWhile you're generally correct, game designers do like their rules to be spoken of well by the people that helped test and refine them.

This is unprofessional behaviour, of which I accuse most of the game writers.
Mind you, I´m talking about guys like AEG or Avalanche Press, not Joe AverageForgie, who writes his own small game.

Quote from: SettembriniThere is no such thing as british beer.

You're absolutely right.  We brew anything as mundane as beer.  Ales, bitters, stouts, porter and (occasionally) lagers, but never simply beer

I hadn't noticed that section before, but typically skip entirely over the "how to roleplay" sections of WW books

I'm going to quote a section from that page, that puts the bit about RPG's as art-form into context:

QuoteUnlike child's play or corporate roleplaying, Storytelling can strive to be an art form.  This might sound pretentious, but anyone who's played roleplaying games long enough has experienced more than one epiphany, a moment when the game seems to become a living entity, a Muse dictating strange and wonderful things to the players.  These moments are worth striving for.

Throughout this chapter are tips and hints that will hopefully lead to these epiphanies.  But it's not a recipe that, if followed exactly, will always produce the same result.  It takes active work on everyone's part, and a desire to achieve more than the mundane.

RPG's as "spiritual experiences"?  Discuss

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonYou're absolutely right.  We brew anything as mundane as beer.  Ales, bitters, stouts, porter and (occasionally) lagers, but never simply beer

QuoteRPG's as "spiritual experiences"?  Discuss

Beer and a quote from a WW product about RPG's as art...no ...wait..."spiritual experiences" - oh, sweet Jeebus the possible carnage...the humanity :D

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RBeer and a quote from a WW product about RPG's as art...no ...wait..."spiritual experiences" - oh, sweet Jeebus the possible carnage...the humanity :D

Regards,
David R

:D
(http://www.nothingland.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9590&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1145626434)

Ok - why isn't the image displaying?

QuoteYou're absolutely right. We brew anything as mundane as beer. Ales, bitters, stouts, porter and (occasionally) lagers, but never simply beer

Touché.
Well, there is many a decent decent british beverage, some of which fit into the categories above. For obvious reasons, Pilsener is synonymous with beer for me. So we might settle our differences with that.:)

 We surely don´t want to go into the realm of talking about US-American brewery products, although it could lead to some serious expletives being used...

EDIT: The greatest threat to Pilsener drinkers on the world comes from Beck´s. Here we say:

Beck´s is for people who don´t like beer.
Beck´s Gold is for people who hate beer.

You know... that's just... weird.
I concede that role playing can range from game to art to anything in between but spiritual experience? I suppose a storyteller/gamemaster could achieve some sort of spiritual joy in the same way that a painter or singer or other artist feels that same joy from their artwork. I have felt much satisfaction (and occassionally maniacal giggles) when part of my game (plot, characters, whatever) goes well but I don't think I have ever experienced any epiphanies... or anything I would consider spiritual for that matter. Perhpas my perception of spiritual differs here.
:bow:

Instead of "spiritual experiences", let's talk about "epiphanies" - moments when you suddenly realise new something about yourself or the world around you

Great art is that which induces epiphanies in the consumer (interesting choice of word there, but I'm going to leave it in)

I think most of us have had RPG sessions where we've learnt something new about ourselves or the people we're playing with

White Wolf believe that their Storytelling model of RPGs leads to a higher epiphany/session ratio.  It is my experience that this can be the case, probably because stories are the mechanism by which we tell each other what it means to be human (thank you, Terry Pratchett)

That, and that I talked quite a bit to my long dead grandmother last time I played Streetfighter.

Quote from: bondetampThat, and that I talked quite a bit to my long dead grandmother last time I played Streetfighter.

Your grandmother's Chung-Li? :confused:

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonYour grandmother's Chung-Li? :confused:

There's a lot of goofy bastards out there that draw pics of his grandma getting nailed then!

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonInstead of "spiritual experiences", let's talk about "epiphanies" - moments when you suddenly realise new something about yourself or the world around you

Great art is that which induces epiphanies in the consumer (interesting choice of word there, but I'm going to leave it in)

I think most of us have had RPG sessions where we've learnt something new about ourselves or the people we're playing with

White Wolf believe that their Storytelling model of RPGs leads to a higher epiphany/session ratio.  It is my experience that this can be the case, probably because stories are the mechanism by which we tell each other what it means to be human (thank you, Terry Pratchett)

Stories have always been the medium for human beings to communicate lessons and experiences to each other. When you are telling your friend what a lousy day you had, it's a story. A true story that won't necessarily make the best sellers list, but a story none-the-less.

Roleplaying is a game that we play that allows us to experience these stories in a first hand way, without having to live through them personally. It also allows us to imagine ourselves to be the people we want to be.

There could be epiphanies... or there could be nothing. Roleplaying is just a game to many people and thus, no matter what story is being told, people won't always see the lessons/epiphanies that may be there for them to find.

I am a strong believer in the storytelling style of rpg. I am also a huge fan of rpgs that involve character growth and development. It is my personal opinion that the best games I've played (no specific system!) were the ones that brought about amazing growth of character through epiphanies.

I think the earlier quote from WW is pretentious though. To me it sounds like they are saying that this epiphany revealing style is the best/only way to go about running an rpg. I think there is also value to be had in the fact that we do this for fun and not everyone wants to experience life changing epiphanies. There are days when I'd rather have a good old fashioned hack-and-slah monster killing ccampaign than an emotionally intense story-driven game.

Hm... does that make sense? Or am I rambling?

Angel

No, that makes lots of sense.

Quote from: angelsorayamaThere could be epiphanies... or there could be nothing. Roleplaying is just a game to many people and thus, no matter what story is being told, people won't always see the lessons/epiphanies that may be there for them to find.

To this I would just like to add that story/resulting epiphanies most times isn't necessarily the goal. It just happens. Sometimes when it just happens it evokes a very intense emotional response. Which is great, but I don't think that creating epiphanies is some thing that can be promoted as a style of play or even as a marketting tool for certain games/systems. Epiphanies is not limited by system or play style.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI see it as a win-win contest, really.  We get the joy of airing our opinions and smacking them around, and everyone else gets to watch us toss each other around, and maybe spots stuff they like in our opinions.

That's why I chose lemon curry. Lemon Curry?

Quote from: Ragnarok N RollLemon Curry?

yep. Lemon Curry.

no, don't worry, you got it right.

Debate's over. What does everyone think of it?

I'd like to see more of them on different topics, :heh:  if we had things like this done in newspapers on political topics, readers would be both amused, and better informed. Thanks to both Levi and Pundent for sticking it out for the greater good. :)

cnath:

We do occasionally show up on each other's journals.  Mine is here:

http://the-tall-man.livejournal.com/

And his is in his Sig.