Quote from: Settembrini:confused:

Which is the whole point in playtesting, not to get your drivel applauded!

No, you don't get it. Many criticisms are of things that were changed because of playtesting, *after* they were playtested. I've read people grouching over rules on many occasions where they wanted a different rule that playtesting proved didn't work very well. Or the fans get the math wrong.

QuoteWell but I am elsewise of your opinion:
It´s not  nearly a big a feat to polish a small game, than to match in 20 new PrCs without unbalancing the whole D&D-iverse.

It's pretty easy to make most PrCs, since they use the basic template of an existing class. In fact, PrCs are almost too easy to make, to the point where there are a lot of pointless PrCs around. Alternate class abilities and new feats are rapidly making many third party PrCs obsolete.

QuoteMany criticisms are of things that were changed because of playtesting, *after* they were playtested. I've read people grouching over rules on many occasions where they wanted a different rule that playtesting proved didn't work very well. Or the fans get the math wrong.

Playtesting is not for making a rule popular, but to make it balanced within the context of the pictured universe.

Quote from: SettembriniPlaytesting is not for making a rule popular, but to make it balanced within the context of the pictured universe.

While you're generally correct, game designers do like their rules to be spoken of well by the people that helped test and refine them.

Some people that help test and refine rules are grumpy when something that feels right, but doesn't balance, gets junked.

That part of playtesting sucks.

The part where they kick the crap out of the rules, and you remake them to work better, that's fun.  Uh, at least, to me.

QuoteWhile you're generally correct, game designers do like their rules to be spoken of well by the people that helped test and refine them.

This is unprofessional behaviour, of which I accuse most of the game writers.
Mind you, I´m talking about guys like AEG or Avalanche Press, not Joe AverageForgie, who writes his own small game.

Quote from: SettembriniThere is no such thing as british beer.

You're absolutely right.  We brew anything as mundane as beer.  Ales, bitters, stouts, porter and (occasionally) lagers, but never simply beer

I hadn't noticed that section before, but typically skip entirely over the "how to roleplay" sections of WW books

I'm going to quote a section from that page, that puts the bit about RPG's as art-form into context:

QuoteUnlike child's play or corporate roleplaying, Storytelling can strive to be an art form.  This might sound pretentious, but anyone who's played roleplaying games long enough has experienced more than one epiphany, a moment when the game seems to become a living entity, a Muse dictating strange and wonderful things to the players.  These moments are worth striving for.

Throughout this chapter are tips and hints that will hopefully lead to these epiphanies.  But it's not a recipe that, if followed exactly, will always produce the same result.  It takes active work on everyone's part, and a desire to achieve more than the mundane.

RPG's as "spiritual experiences"?  Discuss

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonYou're absolutely right.  We brew anything as mundane as beer.  Ales, bitters, stouts, porter and (occasionally) lagers, but never simply beer

QuoteRPG's as "spiritual experiences"?  Discuss

Beer and a quote from a WW product about RPG's as art...no ...wait..."spiritual experiences" - oh, sweet Jeebus the possible carnage...the humanity

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RBeer and a quote from a WW product about RPG's as art...no ...wait..."spiritual experiences" - oh, sweet Jeebus the possible carnage...the humanity

Regards,
David R

Ok - why isn't the image displaying?

QuoteYou're absolutely right. We brew anything as mundane as beer. Ales, bitters, stouts, porter and (occasionally) lagers, but never simply beer

Touché.
Well, there is many a decent decent british beverage, some of which fit into the categories above. For obvious reasons, Pilsener is synonymous with beer for me. So we might settle our differences with that.

 We surely don´t want to go into the realm of talking about US-American brewery products, although it could lead to some serious expletives being used...

EDIT: The greatest threat to Pilsener drinkers on the world comes from Beck´s. Here we say:

Beck´s is for people who don´t like beer.
Beck´s Gold is for people who hate beer.

You know... that's just... weird.
I concede that role playing can range from game to art to anything in between but spiritual experience? I suppose a storyteller/gamemaster could achieve some sort of spiritual joy in the same way that a painter or singer or other artist feels that same joy from their artwork. I have felt much satisfaction (and occassionally maniacal giggles) when part of my game (plot, characters, whatever) goes well but I don't think I have ever experienced any epiphanies... or anything I would consider spiritual for that matter. Perhpas my perception of spiritual differs here.
:bow:

Instead of "spiritual experiences", let's talk about "epiphanies" - moments when you suddenly realise new something about yourself or the world around you

Great art is that which induces epiphanies in the consumer (interesting choice of word there, but I'm going to leave it in)

I think most of us have had RPG sessions where we've learnt something new about ourselves or the people we're playing with

White Wolf believe that their Storytelling model of RPGs leads to a higher epiphany/session ratio.  It is my experience that this can be the case, probably because stories are the mechanism by which we tell each other what it means to be human (thank you, Terry Pratchett)

That, and that I talked quite a bit to my long dead grandmother last time I played Streetfighter.

Quote from: bondetampThat, and that I talked quite a bit to my long dead grandmother last time I played Streetfighter.

Your grandmother's Chung-Li? :confused:

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonYour grandmother's Chung-Li? :confused:

There's a lot of goofy bastards out there that draw pics of his grandma getting nailed then!

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonInstead of "spiritual experiences", let's talk about "epiphanies" - moments when you suddenly realise new something about yourself or the world around you

Great art is that which induces epiphanies in the consumer (interesting choice of word there, but I'm going to leave it in)

I think most of us have had RPG sessions where we've learnt something new about ourselves or the people we're playing with

White Wolf believe that their Storytelling model of RPGs leads to a higher epiphany/session ratio.  It is my experience that this can be the case, probably because stories are the mechanism by which we tell each other what it means to be human (thank you, Terry Pratchett)

Stories have always been the medium for human beings to communicate lessons and experiences to each other. When you are telling your friend what a lousy day you had, it's a story. A true story that won't necessarily make the best sellers list, but a story none-the-less.

Roleplaying is a game that we play that allows us to experience these stories in a first hand way, without having to live through them personally. It also allows us to imagine ourselves to be the people we want to be.

There could be epiphanies... or there could be nothing. Roleplaying is just a game to many people and thus, no matter what story is being told, people won't always see the lessons/epiphanies that may be there for them to find.

I am a strong believer in the storytelling style of rpg. I am also a huge fan of rpgs that involve character growth and development. It is my personal opinion that the best games I've played (no specific system!) were the ones that brought about amazing growth of character through epiphanies.

I think the earlier quote from WW is pretentious though. To me it sounds like they are saying that this epiphany revealing style is the best/only way to go about running an rpg. I think there is also value to be had in the fact that we do this for fun and not everyone wants to experience life changing epiphanies. There are days when I'd rather have a good old fashioned hack-and-slah monster killing ccampaign than an emotionally intense story-driven game.

Hm... does that make sense? Or am I rambling?

Angel

No, that makes lots of sense.