Quote from: mearlsI wouldn't worry about it. That entire quote is pure marketing bullshit. It's all about making the guy who's trying to decide between WoD and some other system think, "Well, this game is ART. The other one isn't."

I enjoyed WW games. My favourite was Mage. But I always got a "something was rotten in Denmark" vibe from the company. I remember reading a magazine called White Wolf(I think) and it was okay at first but the tone slowly changed and it become Infobia (or something like that) a tome of the highest wankery. Not saying that WW had any direct connection with this mag(they may have....like I always say I'm not to hip to the industry-was it a kind of Wotc/Dragon mag relationship)but the way how their games/product were discussed in the mag did them a great disservice(well at least in my opinion)

Regards,
David R

The Pundit´s wrong, big time:

QuoteI mean fuck, you'd probably get more Frenchmen drinking british beers if the beer was made from high quality grapes from southern france, but then it wouldn't be beer anymore, would it?

There is no such thing as british beer.

Quote from: CADmonkeyUm, I think the term 'corporate roleplaying' refers to the business training method of role playing work situations, not any particular RPG company.

I read it that way too, even though my english is sad.

I have seen Mr. Mearls work to read.  It is very good and Mr. Mearls has no need of a ship on his shoulder so large that it blocks his eyes.

Quote from: CADmonkeyUm, I think the term 'corporate roleplaying' refers to the business training method of role playing work situations, not any particular RPG company.

I've never heard of it refered to as "corporate roleplaying" before. I hope you're right, because otherwise the quote is just sad.

Quote from: Harry JoyI remember the first time I was introduced to "business training via roleplaying." It was about the saddest thing I ever saw. Early '90s. Many companies still do it. And it's still just sad.

I hope I never have to do that, because I don't think I could resist responding to the coworker acting in an overly critical manner with my +3 longsword and 18/00 Strength.

Quote from: MaddmanI hope I never have to do that, because I don't think I could resist responding to the coworker acting in an overly critical manner with my +3 longsword and 18/00 Strength.

Ah, then you haven't seen the episode of Cracker where Fitz was teaching a bunch of executives how to properly fire someone.  He pulled a gun on one of them.

Quote from: MaddmanI hope I never have to do that, because I don't think I could resist responding to the coworker acting in an overly critical manner with my +3 longsword and 18/00 Strength.

Ain't that considered harrasment?

:naughty:

Still...

+3 Longsword.  I'm sure they'd be impressed.

Quote from: mearlsMan, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at this one. I love how some companies in the RPG industry essentially say, "Don't give your money to those corporate bastards! Instead, spend all your money on us! We're not corporate. We only ask for money because, um, we think really harsh thoughts about George Bush when we spend our money on consumerist crap."

Not really. It's referring to roleplaying as a management training thing. 'Cause to step out of gazing at our navels for a second, far more people associate roleplaying with (in no special order):

1) Managerial trust and team-building exercises.
2) Psychotherapy.
3) Sexual kink.
4) Computer games.

. . . than they do with the products of the pen and paper gaming hobby.

The thing I find amusing about these critiques is that they primarily offend the very grognards who bitch and moan about taking gaming lightly. The irony is, of course, that old terms like "roll-playing" (along with "powergaming" as a perjorative and "minmaxing") are terms that real gamers use at real tables, instead of terms that have been eaten and shat out by somebody's internet community or favoured school of thought. Thus, objecting to them (and referring to "corporate" roleplaying) really puts the lie to anybody who claims they give a shit about how most people play RPGs at all.

I love you, Levi Kornelson, but not as much as I love lemon curry.

All Hail Lemon Curry!
:pope:



Lemon Curry died for your sins.
:crucify:

Quote from: RPGPunditThat's not actually the entire quote:

"And that brings us to Storytelling.  Many roleplaying games are more concerned with rules and statistics than the drama created within the game. Some people call those roll-playing games, since they're more focused on dice rolling than role-playing. Storytelling certainly provides for a simple and consistent set of rules, but it seeks more than just dice rolls and character sheets."

Also:

"Unlike child's play or corporate roleplaying, Storytelling can strive to be an art form."

And this isn't 1990, this is fucking 2004.  So for any of the fuckhead Swine out there who claim that White Wolf isn't all about the pretentious pseudo-artistry and hatred for mainstream gamers, the prosecution rests.

RPGPundit

Greetings!

Hello RPGPundit. I can certainly agree that this quote demonstrates how smug, self-righteous and elitist White Wolf is, but who cares? White Wolf philosophy is for idiots. I know many gamers who could care fucking less about White Wolf. Believe it or not, a decent number of them have no fucking idea who White Wolf is. From the beginning, White Wolf really only appealed to left-wing, feminist, anti-capitalist, pretentious, self-righteous, angst-filled self-loathing adolescents anyways. I've always figured that was pretty obvious from their earliest products. I mean, come on! Their smug, self-righteous ideology literally *dripped* from every fucking page of their early products. Obviously, from your quote, some things never change.

As far as SWINE go, do SWINE really deny this? I actually bought a few of the early White Wolf books way back when--werewolf and vampire--and after reading them threw them into a closet and haven't touched 'em since. Their pathetic ideology bleeding through on every fucking page drove me nuts, and turned me off of them entirely. In short order, I really didn't give a shit about any "mechanical" innovations or systemics that they may have designed--their ideology told me everything I needed to know and what I could expect from them. The fucking White Wolf "system"--such as it is--seemed then, and apparently now as well--as nothing more than window dressing for an exercise in radical, ideological fantasies masquerading as a roleplaying game.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARKGreetings!
 I mean, come on! Their smug, self-righteous ideology literally *dripped* from every fucking page of their early products. Obviously, from your quote, some things never change.

Yup. Except many people like to pretend that they have changed.

QuoteAs far as SWINE go, do SWINE really deny this?

You'd be amazed how many do; or how many claim that my complaints about WW are "out of date".

QuoteI really didn't give a shit about any "mechanical" innovations or systemics that they may have designed--their ideology told me everything I needed to know and what I could expect from them. The fucking White Wolf "system"--such as it is--seemed then, and apparently now as well--as nothing more than window dressing for an exercise in radical, ideological fantasies masquerading as a roleplaying game.

Not to mention that there was fuck all that was mechanically innovative about the WW system.

RPGPundit

I could probably be characterised as 'left-wing, feminist and anti-capitalist' (and--certainly in my younger days--'pretentious, self-righteous and angst-filled'), but I always thought WW were kind of dorky. Just trying a bit too hard to be really cool.

Quote from: SHARKGreetings!

From the beginning, White Wolf really only appealed to left-wing, feminist, anti-capitalist, pretentious, self-righteous, angst-filled self-loathing adolescents anyways.

Dude! I'm a left-wing, feminist, anti-capitalist, pretentions, self-righteous, angst-filled self-loathing adolescent! I've finally found out my True Identity and it was all due to White Wolf and SHARK!

:win:

Now I must go find my card-carrying comrades, say nasty things about men, and emo all over the house.

Quote from: Lady LakiraI'm a left-wing,

I think so, generally.

Quote from: Lady Lakirafeminist,

Certainly femi-something....

Quote from: Lady Lakiraanti-capitalist,

Uh, is that even possible, in practical terms?

Quote from: Lady Lakirapretentious,

Ironic.

Quote from: Lady Lakiraself-righteous,

Snarky.

Quote from: Lady Lakiraangst-filled

Ironic.   Again.

Quote from: Lady Lakiraself-loathing

Melodramatic, on occasion.  Usually for humor.

Quote from: Lady Lakiraadolescent!

Your SO will be upset to hear it.

Quote from: Lady LakiraNow I must go find my card-carrying comrades, say nasty things about men, and emo all over the house.

You're going to say nasty things about me, aren't you?

Admit it!

Quote from: Levi KornelsenUh, is that even possible, in practical terms?

I'm communist when I'm broke. I'm capitalist when I have money. This makes perfect practical sense in my own little world.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenSnarky.

Awwww, you do care!

Quote from: Levi KornelsenYour SO will be upset to hear it.

Nah. She's a cradle-robber at heart.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenYou're going to say nasty things about me, aren't you?

Admit it!

You like it, baby.