Quote from: LacemakerIn an important sense, Levi's is cheating by being so reasonable and pleasant

We could both get a lot more :grumpy: but we'd be likely to turn the whole thread into a :hissyfit: if we did.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWe could both get a lot more :grumpy: but we'd be likely to turn the whole thread into a :hissyfit: if we did.

Levi, if you wouldn't mind, could you post that text from the WoD book you guys  mentioned? I haven't read the new WW books and I'm curious.

By the way, I havent' seen a debate like this on _any_ RPG forum (it'd be impossible in some, as a matter of fact), so thumbs up to both of you.

Quote from: JongWKLevi, if you wouldn't mind, could you post that text from the WoD book you guys  mentioned? I haven't read the new WW books and I'm curious.

By the way, I havent' seen a debate like this on _any_ RPG forum (it'd be impossible in some, as a matter of fact), so thumbs up to both of you.

Okay.  Here's the nastiest bit, from the very end.

Quote from: The WoD Core Rulebook, page 188Don't deride those who see gaming as a fun hobby (which it is), or those whose roleplaying stories don't aim higher.  Instead, encourage and peruade players to stretch their boundaries.  Storytelling is about achieving something great through an interactive tale, but not at the expense of fun.

And now I feel somewhat dirty.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenAnd now I feel somewhat dirty.

You should.

The quote is highly condescending.

That's not actually the entire quote:

"And that brings us to Storytelling.  Many roleplaying games are more concerned with rules and statistics than the drama created within the game. Some people call those roll-playing games, since they're more focused on dice rolling than role-playing. Storytelling certainly provides for a simple and consistent set of rules, but it seeks more than just dice rolls and character sheets."

Also:

"Unlike child's play or corporate roleplaying, Storytelling can strive to be an art form."

And this isn't 1990, this is fucking 2004.  So for any of the fuckhead Swine out there who claim that White Wolf isn't all about the pretentious pseudo-artistry and hatred for mainstream gamers, the prosecution rests.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThat's not actually the entire quote:

I just wanted to illustrate the kind of shit that's there, but fair enough.

Yeah that is pretty retarded, and overall feels out of place with the rest of the game.  Almost as bad as the 'The scientists have lied to you' crap they put on the back of Exalted.

Heck, Nobilis's corresponding bit is much better than this, saying something like 'if you never address any deep themes or have a complex storyline but everyone has fun, then who cares?  Your game is a success.'  And Nobilis is supposed to be pretentious!

Quote from: MaddmanHeck, Nobilis's corresponding bit is much better than this, saying something like 'if you never address any deep themes or have a complex storyline but everyone has fun, then who cares?  Your game is a success.'  And Nobilis is supposed to be pretentious!

If the rest of the book is pretentious, a little paragraph up front isn't going to alter the general impression- nor should it.

Note: have not seen Nobilis, and thus have no specific opinion on it.

Quote from: RPGPundit"Unlike child's play or corporate roleplaying, Storytelling can strive to be an art form."

Man, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at this one. I love how some companies in the RPG industry essentially say, "Don't give your money to those corporate bastards! Instead, spend all your money on us! We're not corporate. We only ask for money because, um, we think really harsh thoughts about George Bush when we spend our money on consumerist crap."

Quote from: gleichmanYou should.

The quote is highly condescending.

Condescending?

It's like the fucking "White Man's Burden" of RPGs. If that's their version of enlightenment, I think I'd rather sit in the dark of my 20 x 20 room.

Quote from: RPGPundit(snip)

and

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen(snip)

Ow. Just... ow.

Quote from: mearlsMan, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at this one. I love how some companies in the RPG industry essentially say, "Don't give your money to those corporate bastards! Instead, spend all your money on us! We're not corporate. We only ask for money because, um, we think really harsh thoughts about George Bush when we spend our money on consumerist crap."

It's the rebel sell.

Quote from: mearlsMan, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at this one. I love how some companies in the RPG industry essentially say, "Don't give your money to those corporate bastards! Instead, spend all your money on us! We're not corporate. We only ask for money because, um, we think really harsh thoughts about George Bush when we spend our money on consumerist crap."

Good to see that someone can laugh at it.

I have to put up with being associated with it - my sense of humor on such stuff has been pretty thoroughly stripped away.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenGood to see that someone can laugh at it.

I have to put up with being associated with it - my sense of humor on such stuff has been pretty thoroughly stripped away.

I wouldn't worry about it. That entire quote is pure marketing bullshit. It's all about making the guy who's trying to decide between WoD and some other system think, "Well, this game is ART. The other one isn't."

This is the sort of stuff that's at the root of Ron Edward's burning, endless rage against WW. You basically have a system that has all the capital S storytelling potential of D&D, Rifts, GURPS, or whatever, but it's sold as the next thing in high art.

WW is in the business of selling games. Like Lost Soul points out, this is just another gimmick to move books. It's like the alterna-music dude who rattles off a list of a dozen rare or obscure albums he owns and enjoys. That same guy would spew venom at anyone who bragged about their expensive SUV, but at his core his behavior is exactly the same.

Quote from: mearlsMan, I almost fell out of my chair laughing at this one. I love how some companies in the RPG industry essentially say, "Don't give your money to those corporate bastards! Instead, spend all your money on us! We're not corporate. We only ask for money because, um, we think really harsh thoughts about George Bush when we spend our money on consumerist crap."

Um, I think the term 'corporate roleplaying' refers to the business training method of role playing work situations, not any particular RPG company.