Quote from: CyberzombieI'm winning because I'm not reading it.  :win:

Then I must be winning as well.

Quote from: MaddmanYou shoulda been here that time Monte Cook told Snoweel to fuck off.  

He (Monte) also called me a very strange man for what I intended to do with RttToEE and BESM d20.  Shame that never got anywhere - "Sailor Ettin" was a great concept.  Happy days

Quote from: CyberzombieI'm winning because I'm not reading it.  :win:

Same here.

Quote from: Hastur T. FannonHe (Monte) also called me a very strange man for what I intended to do with RttToEE and BESM d20.  Shame that never got anywhere - "Sailor Ettin" was a great concept.  Happy days

I wish there was a chance for a bunch of us to play that out in person.  Mega dungeons and pbp don't get along very well.

The problem has already been stated: Levi is not as antagonistic in his teachings as it would be needed for declaring someone a "winner".
And who really wins is the hobby as a whole. The resulting "midterm" statements are very good stuff.
 
BTW, I don´t like snappy one liners. They make the place uncomfortable and distract from any discussion through lampoonation. Of course my opinion might not carry any weight here whatsoever, but still I want to utter my concern on behalf of those who happen to experience the same feelings.

Quote from: NikchickWell then we're both happy as clams, sweetie-pie; I'm not hanging out here because you upset me. Far from it. You've been amusing the hell out of me! (I hope it's not too much of a blow to you to hear this, I know a big part of the thrill for you is imagining that you cause me "conniptions"; I'm sorry I can't oblige.)

It's true that I couldn't afford to let you to perform your show on my boards as it's against my commercial interests to allow my customers to be derided as "swine" on my company's official site.  But Nutkinland is all about the fun, and it's clear that what's fun for you is to rage around playing the arrogant cock.  So you go, man, knock yourself out. I have every confidence that the Nutkins can roll with it and keep things amusing.  :heh:

You keep telling yourself that, little lady. How's the super ultra-secret mod team doing, by the way?

RPGPundit

Lemon Curry?

Quote from: RPGPunditLemon Curry?

"Other", I believe.

Also, I like the sound of it.

Lemon Curry.

Quote from: Levi Kornelsen"Other", I believe.

Also, I like the sound of it.

Lemon Curry.

Someone hasn't watched enough Monty Python. Eh, kids these days.

RPGPundit

I'm enjoying it a great deal.  It's interesting to see some of the RPG theory debates crystalised in such a coherent manner.

As far as individual performance, I think rpgpundit is being held back by two things.  

The first problem, which is not his fault, is that he's criticising an attitude which people don't tend to publically articulate.  No one goes around saying "my hobbies make me smarter/more sophisticated than you", not least because it would be hard to pronounce that "/".  In trying to prove that kind of attitude exists all you can really do is point to patterns of behaviour that reveal an underlying attitude, and that's always going to be vulnerable to a nitpicking "where did he actually say he felt that way" defence.  
I think that problem is compounded if the best public example of patterns of conduct, rpg.net is ruled to be off-topic.  I think that makes it impossible to nail-down attitudes among the "swine" without them actually publically declaring that they're better than everyone else.
(The other reason pundit's struggling to make the "people who like wanky rpgs are, themselves, wankers" argument stick is that Levi is obviously a very nice, balanced guy who clearly doesn't hold those views himself.  In an important sense, Levi's is cheating by being so reasonable and pleasant)

Second, I think pundit is going further than the facts will support (and I, suspect, further than he privately agrees) with the whole "rules have no influence on game tone/ability to emulate a genre" argument.  He keeps having to say "flexible rules are the best, I can move the game away from combat just with my great GMing chops, specific rules are unnecessary, except for these four specific rules in these systems which I like".  No one who has gone to the effort of designing their own game, or of criticising the entire genre of superhero games because the rules don't match genre conventions, as pundit has, truly believes that rule sets are irrelevant to the tone of gameplay.  He can run with the "I've certainly done that with d20 and had no problem" as much as he wants, because ultimately that argument is not falsifiable, but I think his actions bely his stated position - I think he's letting D20 fanboyism interefer with his better judgment.

In summary:  Interesting thread, thanks guys.  Pundit is in an unfair position in being asked to prove an underlying attitude that people don't express in polite company without recourse to the obvious examples.  Pundit has put himself in a stupid position by trying to argue a very broad conception of rules-neutrality.

Lemon Curry is always an option on NKL polls - it's tradition.

Quote from: LacemakerThe first problem, which is not his fault, is that he's criticising an attitude which people don't tend to publically articulate.  No one goes around saying "my hobbies make me smarter/more sophisticated than you", not least because it would be hard to pronounce that "/".

I think the problem lies with his need to paint all theorists or game designers who believe in RPG=art as hoity toity elistist bastards. While pointing at certain well-known individuals at the forefront of the theory movement certainly works, the thesis that all "artistes" are pretentious and therefore design crappy games is much harder to defend. Thus far, he's relied on the idea that a lot of indie games don't sell as well as D&D. Unfortunately, this is like saying that a burger from McDonald's tastes better than my mom's cooking because it sells better. Not that I think D&D is like crappy burgers. I think it's a quality game. The point is that a game does not need to break into the market to be a quality niche game.

I actually think his other arguments - like the need for theories to account for why D&D is as popular as it is - are on much better ground.

Quote from: LacemakerSecond, I think pundit is going further than the facts will support (and I, suspect, further than he privately agrees) with the whole "rules have no influence on game tone/ability to emulate a genre" argument.  He keeps having to say "flexible rules are the best, I can move the game away from combat just with my great GMing chops, specific rules are unnecessary, except for these four specific rules in these systems which I like".

I think what RPGPundit is getting at here is that there's no point in having niche products as tightly focused as games like Dogs in the Vineyard when other, more mainstream games can be adapted to the same purpose. The idea is that a group is able to develop their own playstyle and if they want to engage in "storytelling", they can certainly go ahead and do that with mainstream games. I personally disagree with him on this point (I'm utterly convinced that I could never have the same experience playing d20 DitV as DitV as designed, for instance).

Quote from: PookaLemon Curry is always an option on NKL polls - it's tradition.

Either that, or (I am) Brannich Blacksmoke.

Quote from: LacemakerIn an important sense, Levi's is cheating by being so reasonable and pleasant

This has to be the best line that I've read so far today, thank you Lacemaker!!:bow:

Lemon Curry,

It is good for Gumps, Gollyweasles, Knacks, Drops, the Cold Robbies, Lackanookie, the Mexican Two-Step, Creeping Macarenas, and Whacks.