TheRPGSite

Since this came up in that thread over there, I wanted to just say it:

Yes, it's true.  I love my blackguard.  I love him even though his Con is too low and he doesn't have enough HP to use his +1 dragonbane vicious greatsword.  I love him even though he still hasn't unlocked his big saves, so he gets screwed every time he makes a Reflex throw.

I love my blackguard.

What character of yours do you love?

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  The actual point, on the thread, is that a fair number of indie designers play and love the heck out of various forms of D&D.  This is true.  The Forge has no small amount of D&D love (and some amount of D&D hate -- it's an open forum that doesn't ban people and thus you get all kinds).

For the convenience of those following the thread, here's a link to Clinton's post (http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=600&page=1#Item_30).  If you read further in the thread, you can see Levi and I engage in sinister conspiracy.

yrs--
--Ben

Bah, I can't reach the page you link to. :(

QuoteSome problems were encountered
The requested discussion could not be found.
 The requested discussion could not be found.
 
 

Ahw, crap, it's one of the "you must be logged in to read this" threads.  

:yell: Curse you, Andy Kitkowski :yell:

It's pretty easy to make an account and read if you like.

For those that don't want to, here's the quote.

Quote from: Clinton R NixonOh God, this is getting awesome.

I wish Levi would refute his "Forge people hate D&D" idea, though. It's unbearably untrue.

Right now:

a) Ron Edwards is running D&D for the kid down the street from him.

b) Ben Lehman loves his blackguard.

c) Some of the top-selling and best-loved indie RPGs are all either like D&D in some way or straight up homages - Burning Wheel (which I'm pretty certain is the best-selling indie RPG ever) and The Shadow of Yesterday (my hubris knows no end, but man, it's D&D-love in pure form). And Sorcerer's a Champions-supplement gone mad, so it's not so outside of what Pundit's defining as an RPG.

And, later in the thread

Quote from: Clinton R NixonI'm on the record for admiring him [the Pundit]. I think when he talks about his play, it rocks. They sound like a blast. And I think it's good to have people who will throw a fucking shotgun blast at anyone who begins to get all bullshitty.

My only two problems with him, which are admittedly big, are that he (a) indicts everyone the same (but, man, this is always my problem for running a forum dedicated to independent fucking publishing for Pete's sake and then it becomes a haven for theory, which is great, but I'm there for the Xerox and staples) and (b) he has this idea that he's the arbiter of fun.

Anytime someone points a finger and says "they aren't having fun" or "their game sucks," I'm with the Pundit. But, man, he should pay the same courtesy to others. If I'm having fun playing Sorcerer and I talk about it online enthusiasticly, and he wants to call me elitist, he's right in the wrong, much like someone who would say D&D players are stupid is also wrong.

I basically agree with Clinton's sentiments.

yrs--
--Ben

Quote from: Ben LehmanP.S.  The actual point, on the thread, is that a fair number of indie designers play and love the heck out of various forms of D&D.  This is true.  The Forge has no small amount of D&D love (and some amount of D&D hate -- it's an open forum that doesn't ban people and thus you get all kinds).

Sure. It's the players many of you don't care for.

Quote from: shooting_diceSure. It's the players many of you don't care for.

Huh?  Uhm, words in my mouth put much?

%90 of D&D fans I've met have been stand up guys n' gals.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  White Wolf freelancers, on the other hand, have been a much more mixed group.

I now officially like you, Ben.

RPGPundit

Thanks, Ben. I did register, but it's one of those "awaiting admin/moderator's approval" kind of things.

Quote from: Ben LehmanHuh?  Uhm, words in my mouth put much?

%90 of D&D fans I've met have been stand up guys n' gals.

I'm sue you think they're fine people -- just shitty gamers. The basis of Forge theory is that gamers can't manage their games properly, after all. I mean, I've read all the justifications, from Chris Chinn's elaborate, clumsy diagram that not only claims to describe how bad gamers are, but how you can't trust what they say about their games because, after all, they're lying. This is leaving aside the Edwards' "brain damage" rants.

You yourself admit this contempt exists here:

http://benlehman.thesmerf.com/?p=149

When you say that "safe" and "unsafe" play arre founded in assumptions of a kind of cowardice. And of course, you yourself have the standard pedestrian passive contempt for people who prefer immersion, and have one of the bog standard posts devoted to defining it out of existence.

QuoteP.S.  White Wolf freelancers, on the other hand, have been a much more mixed group.

How many of us have you met?

Mind you, I'm sure that you think you know quite a bit about us as a homogenous group. That's also just as common and just as wrong. What I really have to wonder, though, is what you, Nixon and Nisarg are on about: These phantom presences that you think are silently accusing you of not gaming right, or having fun right. And for some reason, you're all afraid that the same company is oppressing you by making games that you do not personally care for.

Or is the real fear that, given that people keep liking these games which theory and preference says they shouldn't, maybe your ideas about gaming are flawed in the first place?

Greetings!

QuoteThe basis of Forge theory is that gamers can't manage their games properly, after all.

What the fuck does this mean? Who are the Forge people anyways? And, how can they justify such a sweeping generalization about "gamers?" Who the fuck is the "Forge" to determine who runs their games "properly" and who doesn't?

I'm also curious about what defines a "properly" run game anyways?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARKWhat the fuck does this mean? Who are the Forge people anyways? And, how can they justify such a sweeping generalization about "gamers?" Who the fuck is the "Forge" to determine who runs their games "properly" and who doesn't?

I could write that the Forge says no such thing.

I could urge you to go over to the site and look it over for yourself.

But no, I will save us the time.

The Forge hates you.

It told me.

It hates your gaming and it hates your dice and it hates your books.

When you smile, Baby Forge cries.

Hi, Malcom --

You're like a ray of sunshine, spreading light and joy where-ever you go.

My record for White Wolf Freelancers is more around %50.  There was a really awesome guy I met in Finland who I sadly can't remember the name of who engaged me in some great, educational, mind opening, honest-to-goodness discussion who was phenomenal.  I don't see you as a homogeneous group at all.  I would never put you and him together.

You can read whatever you like into my blog posts, but just because you want me to hate doesn't mean I do.  The fact of the matter is, not everyone wants to do dangerous stuff.  That's totally cool.  In fact, a lot of the time, I don't want to do dangerous stuff.  And I can still have a lot of fun.  See other posts on this forum and elsewhere.  In fact, of the two games I'm playing right now, I wouldn't classify either of them as particularly dangerous, but the D&D one is definitely more dangerous than the Nine Worlds, which is just a spectacularly fun cosmic romp.

This is off-topic, so if we're actually going to bat back and forth about it it should probably move to a new thread:  The reason I'm not interesting in immersion is simply that I played deep-immersive play for about four years through college and I'm frankly just sick of it.  It's not bad, I had a lot of fun with it, but it's like eating the same meal every day.  I'm interested in trying new things right now.  I do think that immersive gaming as it stands has some pretty large flaws.  My ideas about immersive play methods have been pretty back-burnered, simply because I haven't been doing a lot of that sort of play (and all my design is strictly play-based), but I was just talking with Levi about some approaches towards a better, deeper, safer immersive play the other day.  Maybe we're going to work on something together for that.  That would be cool.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  Wanna have a beer at GenCon?

Quote from: Ben LehmanWhat character of yours do you love?

A few weeks ago I played a Troll in Burning Wheel, an all Troll game.

My Troll was big, strong and dumb, not quite as cunning as the others and not Warlord material.  He had spent his life in the caves and just wanted a bridge to call his own so he could eat maidens.

He had no idea what a maiden was.

In the course of the adventure, he smashed a demon in his hands and I'd like to think he got to the surface at some point and got his bridge.

Quote from: SHARKGreetings!

What the fuck does this mean? Who are the Forge people anyways? And, how can they justify such a sweeping generalization about "gamers?" Who the fuck is the "Forge" to determine who runs their games "properly" and who doesn't?

I'm also curious about what defines a "properly" run game anyways?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

SHARK --

Forge people = me and Judd and Clinton.  People who post at a bulletin board called "The Forge."  The Forge is basically a board about RPG design, particularly small companies where one guy writes his game and publishes it on his own time and money.

Malcolm is lying.

What some people at the Forge are into is trying to study why people have fun in games, and design games that give them more of that fun.  That necessarily involves studying why people don't have fun in games, and what happens when gaming breaks down.  For some reason, certain very loud-mouthed people have gotten it into their heads that when we talk about broken play, we are talking about people who don't play our games.  This is flat-out untrue.

What all people in the Forge are into is helping you finish writing your role-playing game, find an audience that likes to play it, and sell some copies, all without losing your shirt.

yrs--
--Ben

Listen to the Sons of Kryos, they are just nice people talking about stuff. I know several forgeites who are just relaxed guys playing more oneshots with forge style games than a traditional campaign with an orthodox system.
That´s all most of them want. And let them have their ways, I mean they have these small niche games who are basically irrelevant to general gaming and don´t harm anybody.
It´s only the forge-fanboys who spill on to other online discussions and hijack threads that are getting on regular joes nerves, especially by telling how important, revolutionary and ground shaking those niche games are supposed to be.
But I cannot see any of them here.

Quote from: Ben LehmanSHARK --

Forge people = me and Judd and Clinton.  People who post at a bulletin board called "The Forge."  The Forge is basically a board about RPG design, particularly small companies where one guy writes his game and publishes it on his own time and money.

Malcolm is lying.

Shit, and here we were doing so well too.  Now you force me to go and partially defend Shooting Dice of all people.

He's not exactly lying, is he? He, and I, and other people who criticize the Forge didn't just pull it all out of our asses, did we?

You do really well when you're doing the whole "total disclosure and honesty" thing, you should stick with that. Because otherwise, guys like me have to start bringing up Brain Damage and Child Abuse.. as in, "the Forge's head honcho compares regular gamers to brain damaged child abuse victims"...

You can rebutt by saying that you guys are about more than that, and that you aren't just directed by Ron Edwards, and that Ron himself has also said other stuff, and that you're all terribly nice people, really you are, honest; but until you come to terms with the fact that many many people in mainstream gaming think of you guys as jerks and that people in your own circles have caused that perception by acting like jerks toward regular gamers, you aren't going to be getting anywhere.

RPGPundit

Greetings!

Hmmm...well done.:) I have heard so much negative flak about "The Forge" that the quote just leaped out at me as maximum pretentious. You make it sound entirely different, and even worth-while. That's good of you indeed, friend. I appreciate the heads up. I'm a person that is a long-term member for many years now of EN-World and Nutkinland, and "The Forge" never crossed my radar.

So, seeing that you just presented me with a very reasonable reason de entre of "The Forge"--why is there such hate for it--and by extension, you? I speak English--you obviously speak English as well, so what's the comprehension problem? How clear and innoccuous can you be, heh?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: RPGPunditShit, and here we were doing so well too.  Now you force me to go and partially defend Shooting Dice of all people.

He's not exactly lying, is he? He, and I, and other people who criticize the Forge didn't just pull it all out of our asses, did we?

You do really well when you're doing the whole "total disclosure and honesty" thing, you should stick with that. Because otherwise, guys like me have to start bringing up Brain Damage and Child Abuse.. as in, "the Forge's head honcho compares regular gamers to brain damaged child abuse victims"...

You can rebutt by saying that you guys are about more than that, and that you aren't just directed by Ron Edwards, and that Ron himself has also said other stuff, and that you're all terribly nice people, really you are, honest; but until you come to terms with the fact that many many people in mainstream gaming think of you guys as jerks and that people in your own circles have caused that perception by acting like jerks toward regular gamers, you aren't going to be getting anywhere.

RPGPundit

Greetings!

Wow! RPGPundit, I don't know you at all. Before just recently, I can't say that I've even heard of you. So, perhaps you can indulge me briefly--how do you--and I presume you are reasonably educated and have a job:)--how can someone get *this* involved with people on the Intarweb? I mean really, how do you develop such a personal relationship where you--or these other people--seem to *hate* each other so much?

I mean honestly, I have been involved on the internet for years, and I have spent quite a lot of time fighting and arguing about *real world stuff* like politics and religion, and there are a few people--but only a few--that I have grown to despise. I find it difficult to somehow gain such emotion and hatred for people over *a game.* Not trying to be snide, but I am genuinely curious, and a bit astonished, too.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Ben LehmanSHARK --

Forge people = me and Judd and Clinton.  People who post at a bulletin board called "The Forge."  The Forge is basically a board about RPG design, particularly small companies where one guy writes his game and publishes it on his own time and money.

Or Greg Stafford, as long as, like Ron, you ignore the other people in the credits of Runequest and Heroquest.

QuoteMalcolm is lying.

I keep seeing these definitely statements and team hyperbole, and no actual refutation. I mean, I actually referred you your blog and real things real people from the school of thought have actually said. Chris Chinn really did create an elaborate diagram to show that people who play badly are lying to themselves when they say they are having fun. Ron Edwards really did describe people who steadfastly continued to have tastes not in line with his own as brain damaged.

And it always seems to be difficult to get you guys to actually go back and talk about this stuff unless you're in a heavily moderated safe haven. I note, for instance, that in your reply to me, you haven't bothered to reply by point. You just waded in with sideways ad hominems.

So, in that context: Which of us is engaging in a more honest discussion?

QuoteWhat some people at the Forge are into is trying to study why people have fun in games, and design games that give them more of that fun.  That necessarily involves studying why people don't have fun in games, and what happens when gaming breaks down.  For some reason, certain very loud-mouthed people have gotten it into their heads that when we talk about broken play, we are talking about people who don't play our games.  This is flat-out untrue.

Is there a place where I accused you of a bias against people who don't play your games? Read again.

Quote from: Ben LehmanP.S.  The actual point, on the thread, is that a fair number of indie designers play and love the heck out of various forms of D&D.  This is true.  The Forge has no small amount of D&D love (and some amount of D&D hate -- it's an open forum that doesn't ban people and thus you get all kinds).

Hey Ben,

It's curious that this even needed to be said. I'll admit that perceptions can be wrong or even misguided, but I think that the Forge's reputation is such because the people who have an overt influence(I'm not overly familiar with ,most of the leading lights at the Forge, but I have heard of the people you listed) over the board engage in the kind of behaviour which has led many to assume that the Forge breeds the kind of elitism and disdain for other forms of play styles. I do not mean to be abrasive or anything, just genuiely curious as to why you think you had to make this statement.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: SHARKGreetings!

Hmmm...well done.:) I have heard so much negative flak about "The Forge" that the quote just leaped out at me as maximum pretentious. You make it sound entirely different, and even worth-while. That's good of you indeed, friend. I appreciate the heads up. I'm a person that is a long-term member for many years now of EN-World and Nutkinland, and "The Forge" never crossed my radar.

So, seeing that you just presented me with a very reasonable reason de entre of "The Forge"--why is there such hate for it--and by extension, you? I speak English--you obviously speak English as well, so what's the comprehension problem? How clear and innoccuous can you be, heh?

I can't explain the hate, man.

I can say that Ron, one of the two guys who runs it, has a habit of accidentally stirring up giant hornet's nests on the internet through off-hand comments.  It's like some sort of super-power.  He's honestly trying to communicate some simple things, but someone keeps managing to say it in such a way that people get serious dander up.

Basically, if you hang out there, you learn to ignore these storms as they pass in the distance.

I can also say that moderation and discussion at the Forge is handled very differently than in other places on the net (we don't ban, we keep all threads strictly on topic, we have no "general chat" forum and we have no interest in "community for community's sake," preferring to focus strictly on game design and publication), and that sometimes make people feel confused and frustrated.  The official admin response to this is *shrug, let them leave, we're big enough as it is*.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S. to Dave: This is theoretically a popcorn thread.  I was responding to the Pundit's repeated statements that Forge people hate D&D.  As a group, we don't, and I think that there's generally a good deal of respect for it.  (There are of course individual people in the group who don't like D&D.  But that's their problem.)

P.P.S.  To Malcolm: Have you ever considered that if Chris's articles don't describe your play, then maybe they aren't describing your play?  Chris isn't saying "you, Malcolm, play like this and thus you suck."  Chris is saying "there are people out there whose play sucks.  Hey, you people playing like this, here's what's going wrong."  And a lot of people thank him for helping them out, so those people are clearly out there.  Maybe, just maybe, it has nothing to do with you at all.

Quote from: Ben LehmanP.S. to Dave: This is theoretically a popcorn thread.  I was responding to the Pundit's repeated statements that Forge people hate D&D.  As a group, we don't, and I think that there's generally a good deal of respect for it.  (There are of course individual people in the group who don't like D&D.  But that's their problem.)

Fair enough. I have lurked at the Forge. I question the value of actual play threads(but that's a whole other discussion :) ) but I have found some value in the discussions about gming techniques and the like. Which I suppose is the most important thing. What you take from the Forge(or any forum for that matter) as opposed to what you dislike about it.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: shooting_diceRon Edwards really did describe people who steadfastly continued to have tastes not in line with his own as brain damaged.

No, that's not accurate.

Ron Edwards proposed that story underlies a large chunk of human mentality, and that people that had self-conditioned through gaming to be unable to naturally tell stories were brain-damaged.  He included himself.

And, yes, it's still an offensive thing to say.  But do try to be accurate, 'kay?

Quote from: Ben LehmanI can say that Ron, one of the two guys who runs it, has a habit of accidentally stirring up giant hornet's nests on the internet through off-hand comments.  It's like some sort of super-power.  He's honestly trying to communicate some simple things, but someone keeps managing to say it in such a way that people get serious dander up.

Or one could say that he has lapses where he reveals his true feelings.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenNo, that's not accurate.

Ron Edwards proposed that story underlies a large chunk of human mentality, and that people that had self-conditioned through gaming to be unable to naturally tell stories were brain-damaged.  He included himself.

And, yes, it's still an offensive thing to say.  But do try to be accurate, 'kay?

How could one be "unable to naturally tell stories"? Who decides whether a given individual's attempts at telling stories is failing? I assume, of course, that this is directed at gamers and not humanity in general. What is "story" as opposed to "a story"?

Quote from: SigmundHow could one be "unable to naturally tell stories"? Who decides whether a given individual's attempts at telling stories is failing? I assume, of course, that this is directed at gamers and not humanity in general. What is "story" as opposed to "a story"?

Let me see...

I could explain some of this, in terms of what was said, but it would take a long damn time.  And I think it's incorrect, besides.

Do you really, really want to know?

Quote from: gleichmanOr one could say that he has lapses where he reveals his true feelings.

I think there is some truth in this. But I also think there is some truth that Ron has become some kind of Keyser Soze to some gamers(esp those who post or lurk in forums) who have never read any of his stuff(or visited the Forge) and go by what they hear/read from others. If they did read his stuff it may confirm everything they have heard/read or they might understand where he is coming from (even though they may disagree with him). I (for example) have read some of his stuff and appreciated some of it and as for some of his other stuff I think not that he is not playing with a full deck of cards but rather he is playing with a deck of cards with all the same cards :D

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Ben LehmanP.P.S.  To Malcolm: Have you ever considered that if Chris's articles don't describe your play, then maybe they aren't describing your play?

Oh, I'm sure they don't, but according to Chris' diagram, I could be tricking myself. According to him, I might not be having fun and I wouldn't even know it! So taking him at his word -- who knows? Mind you, Ron's solution is that I'm psychologically damaged, and you of course don't believe some of my players' preferred playstyle really exists.

QuoteChris isn't saying "you, Malcolm, play like this and thus you suck."  Chris is saying "there are people out there whose play sucks.  Hey, you people playing like this, here's what's going wrong."  And a lot of people thank him for helping them out, so those people are clearly out there.  Maybe, just maybe, it has nothing to do with you at all.

If the apparatus of the theory doesn't explain the dynamics of a great many games (that include mine), it's a pretty crummy apparatus.

Who are these people that have been pulled from the den of iniquity that were their crummy games anyway? It seems to me that the chief role theory plays is that somebody reads it and thinks that it is in fact possible to refine their techniques for running the game. But I have never seen anyone appear from out of the blue and claim that any particular theory helped them. Oh, I've seen people who've bought into the community do so, but that functions pretty much the same way that faith healing does.

Quote from: SigmundHow could one be "unable to naturally tell stories"? Who decides whether a given individual's attempts at telling stories is failing? I assume, of course, that this is directed at gamers and not humanity in general. What is "story" as opposed to "a story"?

Playing an RPG is not really exactly the same thing as telling a story. In fact, stories, roleplaying and RPG games are all pretty distinct.

Hey, for those of you who are interested in what Ron says, he has a publically posted e-mail address at his website (http://adept-press.com/).  If you want to know what he means, asking him directly is way more efficent and less aggravating than trying to get Levi or I to explain what another person is thinking.

Malcolm is, of course, being a dork.  None of us, most especially not Chris, has ever said anything like "you think you're having fun, but you're not."  What Chris does say, a lot, is "if you're not having fun, here's why."

White Wolf books, on the other hand, will openly tell me that because I care about effectiveness and modifiers that I am not really role-playing and I'm a lesser human being.  Yay!

yrs--
--Ben

Quote from: Ben LehmanMalcolm is, of course, being a dork.  None of us, most especially not Chris, has ever said anything like "you think you're having fun, but you're not."

Actually, that's exactly what he illustrates here:

http://bankuei.blogspot.com/2006/04/when-it-all-falls-down.html

. . . with a big box called "Social Pressure and Denial."

You can hem and haw and call me names, Ben. You can appraoch this as dishonestly as you like. It doesn't change the fact that everything I am saying is referring to what you folks are actually saying.

QuoteWhite Wolf books, on the other hand, will openly tell me that because I care about effectiveness and modifiers that I am not really role-playing and I'm a lesser human being.  Yay!

References please.
yrs--
--Ben[/QUOTE]

Hey, Malcolm.  Chris, also, has a publically posted e-mail address.  Why not ask him what he means?

Ron and Chris are personal friends of mine.  I have talked with them a lot about these things.  Trust me, they do not hate gamers categorically.  Ron finds them frustrating sometimes, mostly because he runs a messageboard.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  As to white wolf ridiculousness, there was a great quote on a NKLand thread that I was just reading, god damnit.  Something about "leading lesser gamers by example."  I can't find it with search.  Anyone want to help me out?

Quote from: Ben LehmanHey, Malcolm.  Chris, also, has a publically posted e-mail address.  Why not ask him what he means?

Ron and Chris are personal friends of mine.  I have talked with them a lot about these things.  Trust me, they do not hate gamers categorically.  Ron finds them frustrating sometimes, mostly because he runs a messageboard.

"Hate," is certainly not a constant thing. It's one temporary manifestation of the contempt that is a consistent part of it.

QuoteP.S.  As to white wolf ridiculousness, there was a great quote on a NKLand thread that I was just reading, god damnit.  Something about "leading lesser gamers by example."  I can't find it with search.  Anyone want to help me out?

That's be the couple paragraphs Nisarg doesn't like. As interesting as it is to perform verbal acrobatics to make it look like being down on gamers, it doesn't keep it from being, in fact, the opposite, since it says:

1) Gaming can be artistic.
2) Some gamers don't care about that much.
3) If you're interested in artistic gaming, don't use it a pretense to annoy gamers who don't care that much.

Oh yeah -- it uses "roll-playing," too, because, in fact, gamers who have not had the benefit of the internet to tell them that it is Terrible and Wrong actually use the term and benefit from it. I have an essay about why dropping these common use terms is dumb here:

http://shootingdice.blogspot.com/2006/03/folk-theory-and-discourse-of-power-in.html

Quote from: Ben LehmanThe Forge has no small amount of D&D love (and some amount of D&D hate -- it's an open forum that doesn't ban people and thus you get all kinds).

I was directly requested by Clinton to stop posting on my disagreements with GNS or leave during its first few months of operation under his management.

I'm not banned at the Forge so your statement is true on specifics if not intent I suppose.

:popcorn:

This is fascinating: A White Wolf Swine and a Forge Swine each trying to defend their respective crapulence (often with the same sad excuses and justifications) while trying to piss on the other guy.  I haven't had this much fun just watching in ages...

But really guys; there's no need to fight, you both suck equally!
Both your respective groups believe in elitist patronizing of normal gamers, and neither of you are fooling anyone.
I just love how both of you are trying to claim that you're "getting better", while trying to show how the other guy hasn't changed a bit. And how you both try to argue that the evidence of your own crapulence is clearly taken out of context but the evidence of the other guy's crapulence is spot on.

Over here in non-jargon non-flower-artsy-shithead-talk land, we have a saying: "If it quacks like a duck..."

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditThis is fascinating: A White Wolf Swine and a Forge Swine each trying to defend their respective crapulence (often with the same sad excuses and justifications) while trying to piss on the other guy.  I haven't had this much fun just watching in ages...

But really guys; there's no need to fight, you both suck equally!
Both your respective groups believe in elitist patronizing of normal gamers, and neither of you are fooling anyone.
I just love how both of you are trying to claim that you're "getting better", while trying to show how the other guy hasn't changed a bit. And how you both try to argue that the evidence of your own crapulence is clearly taken out of context but the evidence of the other guy's crapulence is spot on.

I simply play what I like and encourage others to do the same. I  like in when people take the time to make sure they're enjoying themselves. If you identify that with some sort of exclusionary principle, then you're really not very good at reading.

I mean, you might argue that there's some kind of subtext it what I'm saying that somehow disaproves of what gamers do, but you haven't. Hell -- the fact that I have to help you argue with me is pretty emblematic of how incoherent and shrill your position has become.

QuoteOver here in non-jargon non-flower-artsy-shithead-talk land, we have a saying: "If it quacks like a duck..."

Uh, you don't belong to that place. You just have retarded pretenses. You're an uninteresting person who wants people to play the way you do, and who hates people who don't play the way you do. Since this is your position, you can't really make claims to be in touch with what gamers want. I mean, you hate so *many* of them.

Let me know if you need any other tips on how to contribute coherently. You need 'em and I'm happy to provide 'em.

Quote from: shooting_diceUh, you don't belong to that place. You just have retarded pretenses. You're an uninteresting person who wants people to play the way you do, and who hates people who don't play the way you do. Since this is your position, you can't really make claims to be in touch with what gamers want. I mean, you hate so *many* of them.

Not really, there aren't that many of you, and even less of Ben's sort. The vast majority of gamers, no matter how much you wish it were otherwise, are guys who see RPGs as a game and play RPGs for what you have called "socially inept problem solving and escapist scenarios"; and what normal human beings without psychological justification issues about the fact that they're dedicating so much time to playing a GAME would just call "fun".

So yea, Eyebeamz, you keep telling yourself that you're not a hater, but the other guys clearly are... :rolleyes:

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditNot really, there aren't that many of you, and even less of Ben's sort. The vast majority of gamers, no matter how much you wish it were otherwise, are guys who see RPGs as a game and play RPGs for what you have called "socially inept problem solving and escapist scenarios"; and what normal human beings without psychological justification issues about the fact that they're dedicating so much time to playing a GAME would just call "fun".

So yea, Eyebeamz, you keep telling yourself that you're not a hater, but the other guys clearly are... :rolleyes:

RPGPundit

You hate people who play White Wolf games. That's around 20% of the hobby marketshare and, based on WotC market research data, over a quarter of gamers. You think about a quarter of gamers are peices of shit. Ron thinks they're brain damaged. These are facts directly attributable to your statements and Ron's. You really do have contempt for these people.

We can boost this of course by counting people who have felt they've had an artistic or immersive experience playing any RPG at all. At a rough estimate, that means you probably hate about a third to a half of the hobby.

I can't really help that you identify with this:

http://shootingdice.blogspot.com/2006/04/you-ever-notice-that-folks-who-are.html

. . . but hey, that's your choice. All the same, there's certainly nothing wrong with playing games where character to character socialization is ignored in favour of action and raw puzzle-solving. I enjoy playing these games in a way that you do not enjoy playing the kinds of RPGs I enjoy (after all, my tastes are broader than yours), but it is a fact that if you only play that, you're going to attract difficult people if your game is anything other than something held between a tight-knit group of friends.

This is why you have cause to bitch about such things and I don't. Frankly, Nisarg, if you didn't hate so many gamers, you wouldn't have cause to complain about the socially inept ones. You put all your eggs in one basket and you've paid the price. All the same, I don't have a problem with your playstyle at all. The fact that you probably execute your playstyle like an overripe assfruit would be what I'd have a problem with. The fact that I have no problem with how you play RPGs is entire separate from the fact that I think you're . . . what do you call it? . . . a "lawn-crapper."

Why does gaming attract shitheads like this?  Nisarg, Eyebeamz, you're both right, the other is a loudmouth jackass with an ego even bigger than your reservoirs of vitriole.  And the Forgies/Edwards' appologists, at least you're not foaming at the mouth, but please, your smarmy spin doctoring is not all that much less creepy.  Please, all of you.. don't get over yourselves.  I'm enjoying this battle royale all too much!

Quote from: ScalePlease, all of you.. don't get over yourselves.  I'm enjoying this battle royale all too much!

Why do meta-game-arguments attract people like Scale? But please don't get over yourself - I'm enjoying this meta-battle royale all too much!

(Now if we just keep this up for a few more layers, we can crash the internets! ;) )

I do so love the internets!