Quote from: Ben LehmanSHARK --

Forge people = me and Judd and Clinton.  People who post at a bulletin board called "The Forge."  The Forge is basically a board about RPG design, particularly small companies where one guy writes his game and publishes it on his own time and money.

Malcolm is lying.

Shit, and here we were doing so well too.  Now you force me to go and partially defend Shooting Dice of all people.

He's not exactly lying, is he? He, and I, and other people who criticize the Forge didn't just pull it all out of our asses, did we?

You do really well when you're doing the whole "total disclosure and honesty" thing, you should stick with that. Because otherwise, guys like me have to start bringing up Brain Damage and Child Abuse.. as in, "the Forge's head honcho compares regular gamers to brain damaged child abuse victims"...

You can rebutt by saying that you guys are about more than that, and that you aren't just directed by Ron Edwards, and that Ron himself has also said other stuff, and that you're all terribly nice people, really you are, honest; but until you come to terms with the fact that many many people in mainstream gaming think of you guys as jerks and that people in your own circles have caused that perception by acting like jerks toward regular gamers, you aren't going to be getting anywhere.

RPGPundit

Greetings!

Hmmm...well done. I have heard so much negative flak about "The Forge" that the quote just leaped out at me as maximum pretentious. You make it sound entirely different, and even worth-while. That's good of you indeed, friend. I appreciate the heads up. I'm a person that is a long-term member for many years now of EN-World and Nutkinland, and "The Forge" never crossed my radar.

So, seeing that you just presented me with a very reasonable reason de entre of "The Forge"--why is there such hate for it--and by extension, you? I speak English--you obviously speak English as well, so what's the comprehension problem? How clear and innoccuous can you be, heh?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: RPGPunditShit, and here we were doing so well too.  Now you force me to go and partially defend Shooting Dice of all people.

He's not exactly lying, is he? He, and I, and other people who criticize the Forge didn't just pull it all out of our asses, did we?

You do really well when you're doing the whole "total disclosure and honesty" thing, you should stick with that. Because otherwise, guys like me have to start bringing up Brain Damage and Child Abuse.. as in, "the Forge's head honcho compares regular gamers to brain damaged child abuse victims"...

You can rebutt by saying that you guys are about more than that, and that you aren't just directed by Ron Edwards, and that Ron himself has also said other stuff, and that you're all terribly nice people, really you are, honest; but until you come to terms with the fact that many many people in mainstream gaming think of you guys as jerks and that people in your own circles have caused that perception by acting like jerks toward regular gamers, you aren't going to be getting anywhere.

RPGPundit

Greetings!

Wow! RPGPundit, I don't know you at all. Before just recently, I can't say that I've even heard of you. So, perhaps you can indulge me briefly--how do you--and I presume you are reasonably educated and have a job:)--how can someone get *this* involved with people on the Intarweb? I mean really, how do you develop such a personal relationship where you--or these other people--seem to *hate* each other so much?

I mean honestly, I have been involved on the internet for years, and I have spent quite a lot of time fighting and arguing about *real world stuff* like politics and religion, and there are a few people--but only a few--that I have grown to despise. I find it difficult to somehow gain such emotion and hatred for people over *a game.* Not trying to be snide, but I am genuinely curious, and a bit astonished, too.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Ben LehmanSHARK --

Forge people = me and Judd and Clinton.  People who post at a bulletin board called "The Forge."  The Forge is basically a board about RPG design, particularly small companies where one guy writes his game and publishes it on his own time and money.

Or Greg Stafford, as long as, like Ron, you ignore the other people in the credits of Runequest and Heroquest.

QuoteMalcolm is lying.

I keep seeing these definitely statements and team hyperbole, and no actual refutation. I mean, I actually referred you your blog and real things real people from the school of thought have actually said. Chris Chinn really did create an elaborate diagram to show that people who play badly are lying to themselves when they say they are having fun. Ron Edwards really did describe people who steadfastly continued to have tastes not in line with his own as brain damaged.

And it always seems to be difficult to get you guys to actually go back and talk about this stuff unless you're in a heavily moderated safe haven. I note, for instance, that in your reply to me, you haven't bothered to reply by point. You just waded in with sideways ad hominems.

So, in that context: Which of us is engaging in a more honest discussion?

QuoteWhat some people at the Forge are into is trying to study why people have fun in games, and design games that give them more of that fun.  That necessarily involves studying why people don't have fun in games, and what happens when gaming breaks down.  For some reason, certain very loud-mouthed people have gotten it into their heads that when we talk about broken play, we are talking about people who don't play our games.  This is flat-out untrue.

Is there a place where I accused you of a bias against people who don't play your games? Read again.

Quote from: Ben LehmanP.S.  The actual point, on the thread, is that a fair number of indie designers play and love the heck out of various forms of D&D.  This is true.  The Forge has no small amount of D&D love (and some amount of D&D hate -- it's an open forum that doesn't ban people and thus you get all kinds).

Hey Ben,

It's curious that this even needed to be said. I'll admit that perceptions can be wrong or even misguided, but I think that the Forge's reputation is such because the people who have an overt influence(I'm not overly familiar with ,most of the leading lights at the Forge, but I have heard of the people you listed) over the board engage in the kind of behaviour which has led many to assume that the Forge breeds the kind of elitism and disdain for other forms of play styles. I do not mean to be abrasive or anything, just genuiely curious as to why you think you had to make this statement.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: SHARKGreetings!

Hmmm...well done. I have heard so much negative flak about "The Forge" that the quote just leaped out at me as maximum pretentious. You make it sound entirely different, and even worth-while. That's good of you indeed, friend. I appreciate the heads up. I'm a person that is a long-term member for many years now of EN-World and Nutkinland, and "The Forge" never crossed my radar.

So, seeing that you just presented me with a very reasonable reason de entre of "The Forge"--why is there such hate for it--and by extension, you? I speak English--you obviously speak English as well, so what's the comprehension problem? How clear and innoccuous can you be, heh?

I can't explain the hate, man.

I can say that Ron, one of the two guys who runs it, has a habit of accidentally stirring up giant hornet's nests on the internet through off-hand comments.  It's like some sort of super-power.  He's honestly trying to communicate some simple things, but someone keeps managing to say it in such a way that people get serious dander up.

Basically, if you hang out there, you learn to ignore these storms as they pass in the distance.

I can also say that moderation and discussion at the Forge is handled very differently than in other places on the net (we don't ban, we keep all threads strictly on topic, we have no "general chat" forum and we have no interest in "community for community's sake," preferring to focus strictly on game design and publication), and that sometimes make people feel confused and frustrated.  The official admin response to this is *shrug, let them leave, we're big enough as it is*.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S. to Dave: This is theoretically a popcorn thread.  I was responding to the Pundit's repeated statements that Forge people hate D&D.  As a group, we don't, and I think that there's generally a good deal of respect for it.  (There are of course individual people in the group who don't like D&D.  But that's their problem.)

P.P.S.  To Malcolm: Have you ever considered that if Chris's articles don't describe your play, then maybe they aren't describing your play?  Chris isn't saying "you, Malcolm, play like this and thus you suck."  Chris is saying "there are people out there whose play sucks.  Hey, you people playing like this, here's what's going wrong."  And a lot of people thank him for helping them out, so those people are clearly out there.  Maybe, just maybe, it has nothing to do with you at all.

Quote from: Ben LehmanP.S. to Dave: This is theoretically a popcorn thread.  I was responding to the Pundit's repeated statements that Forge people hate D&D.  As a group, we don't, and I think that there's generally a good deal of respect for it.  (There are of course individual people in the group who don't like D&D.  But that's their problem.)

Fair enough. I have lurked at the Forge. I question the value of actual play threads(but that's a whole other discussion ) but I have found some value in the discussions about gming techniques and the like. Which I suppose is the most important thing. What you take from the Forge(or any forum for that matter) as opposed to what you dislike about it.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: shooting_diceRon Edwards really did describe people who steadfastly continued to have tastes not in line with his own as brain damaged.

No, that's not accurate.

Ron Edwards proposed that story underlies a large chunk of human mentality, and that people that had self-conditioned through gaming to be unable to naturally tell stories were brain-damaged.  He included himself.

And, yes, it's still an offensive thing to say.  But do try to be accurate, 'kay?

Quote from: Ben LehmanI can say that Ron, one of the two guys who runs it, has a habit of accidentally stirring up giant hornet's nests on the internet through off-hand comments.  It's like some sort of super-power.  He's honestly trying to communicate some simple things, but someone keeps managing to say it in such a way that people get serious dander up.

Or one could say that he has lapses where he reveals his true feelings.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenNo, that's not accurate.

Ron Edwards proposed that story underlies a large chunk of human mentality, and that people that had self-conditioned through gaming to be unable to naturally tell stories were brain-damaged.  He included himself.

And, yes, it's still an offensive thing to say.  But do try to be accurate, 'kay?

How could one be "unable to naturally tell stories"? Who decides whether a given individual's attempts at telling stories is failing? I assume, of course, that this is directed at gamers and not humanity in general. What is "story" as opposed to "a story"?

Quote from: SigmundHow could one be "unable to naturally tell stories"? Who decides whether a given individual's attempts at telling stories is failing? I assume, of course, that this is directed at gamers and not humanity in general. What is "story" as opposed to "a story"?

Let me see...

I could explain some of this, in terms of what was said, but it would take a long damn time.  And I think it's incorrect, besides.

Do you really, really want to know?

Quote from: gleichmanOr one could say that he has lapses where he reveals his true feelings.

I think there is some truth in this. But I also think there is some truth that Ron has become some kind of Keyser Soze to some gamers(esp those who post or lurk in forums) who have never read any of his stuff(or visited the Forge) and go by what they hear/read from others. If they did read his stuff it may confirm everything they have heard/read or they might understand where he is coming from (even though they may disagree with him). I (for example) have read some of his stuff and appreciated some of it and as for some of his other stuff I think not that he is not playing with a full deck of cards but rather he is playing with a deck of cards with all the same cards

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Ben LehmanP.P.S.  To Malcolm: Have you ever considered that if Chris's articles don't describe your play, then maybe they aren't describing your play?

Oh, I'm sure they don't, but according to Chris' diagram, I could be tricking myself. According to him, I might not be having fun and I wouldn't even know it! So taking him at his word -- who knows? Mind you, Ron's solution is that I'm psychologically damaged, and you of course don't believe some of my players' preferred playstyle really exists.

QuoteChris isn't saying "you, Malcolm, play like this and thus you suck."  Chris is saying "there are people out there whose play sucks.  Hey, you people playing like this, here's what's going wrong."  And a lot of people thank him for helping them out, so those people are clearly out there.  Maybe, just maybe, it has nothing to do with you at all.

If the apparatus of the theory doesn't explain the dynamics of a great many games (that include mine), it's a pretty crummy apparatus.

Who are these people that have been pulled from the den of iniquity that were their crummy games anyway? It seems to me that the chief role theory plays is that somebody reads it and thinks that it is in fact possible to refine their techniques for running the game. But I have never seen anyone appear from out of the blue and claim that any particular theory helped them. Oh, I've seen people who've bought into the community do so, but that functions pretty much the same way that faith healing does.

Quote from: SigmundHow could one be "unable to naturally tell stories"? Who decides whether a given individual's attempts at telling stories is failing? I assume, of course, that this is directed at gamers and not humanity in general. What is "story" as opposed to "a story"?

Playing an RPG is not really exactly the same thing as telling a story. In fact, stories, roleplaying and RPG games are all pretty distinct.

Hey, for those of you who are interested in what Ron says, he has a publically posted e-mail address at his website.  If you want to know what he means, asking him directly is way more efficent and less aggravating than trying to get Levi or I to explain what another person is thinking.

Malcolm is, of course, being a dork.  None of us, most especially not Chris, has ever said anything like "you think you're having fun, but you're not."  What Chris does say, a lot, is "if you're not having fun, here's why."

White Wolf books, on the other hand, will openly tell me that because I care about effectiveness and modifiers that I am not really role-playing and I'm a lesser human being.  Yay!

yrs--
--Ben