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[Popcorn] DM as Referee

Started by Roger, April 20, 2006, 11:09:42 AM

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blakkie

#15
April 20, 2006, 01:55:42 PM
Quote from: MaddmanJust a joke, in that many people feel the court has interpreted broadly enough to be considered just making shit up.  Not trying for a political derail or anything.
You would do well to see those expressions of feeling often more sour grapes, polticing, and/or disagreement with some given current ruling.

Quote from: MaddmanThe only sport I watch is football, and not much of that.  There the refs primarily serve as someone for the fans to blame when their team starts sucking ass.  :p

I'll confess to not being much of a sports guy.
Then they have performed the Greatest Trick on you. Although that isn't surprising given how good the NFL refereeing is and how well the league image has been managed. In the NFL it's easier to see if you include the referee management as part of the refereeing.
"Because honestly? I have no idea what you do. None." - Pierce Inverarity

gleichman

#16
April 20, 2006, 02:02:43 PM
On the subject of this thread. I'm quite happy being referenced as the Referee although GM is more commonly used.

I think one's like or distain for the term is nothing more than indication of where on the Pundit/Swine ladder you are. In short, the word isn't really what the debate is over. It's still all about the style of play.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Technicolor Dreamcoat

#17
April 20, 2006, 02:18:39 PM
Quote from: gleichmanOn the subject of this thread. I'm quite happy being referenced as the Referee although GM is more commonly used.

I think one's like or distain for the term is nothing more than indication of where on the Pundit/Swine ladder you are. In short, the word isn't really what the debate is over. It's still all about the style of play.
Quoted for truth.
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Nicephorus

#18
April 20, 2006, 02:24:23 PM
Quote from: gleichmanI think one's like or distain for the term is nothing more than indication of where on the Pundit/Swine ladder you are. In short, the word isn't really what the debate is over. It's still all about the style of play.
I have no disdain for the word.  I just think that comparing a gm/referee to a sports referee is a poor analogy.

And I wouldn't refer too much to a pundit/swine ladder as if it's a real thing.  That would give the impression that play style varies unidimensionally.

gleichman

#19
April 20, 2006, 03:01:12 PM
Quote from: NicephorusI have no disdain for the word.  I just think that comparing a gm/referee to a sports referee is a poor analogy.

I was intending 'disdain' in that usage to mean... well disdain for using the term referee in that usage. Not distain for the world referee itself.

Or basically "referee is a poor analogy".


Quote from: NicephorusAnd I wouldn't refer too much to a pundit/swine ladder as if it's a real thing.  That would give the impression that play style varies unidimensionally.

GNS and GDS claims it a 2D triangle :)

More seriously, at this point we are speaking of a unidimensional disagreement (referee = good, referee = bad) that I'm willing to bet strongly breaks along Pundit/Swine lines.

I could be wrong, and that would be interesting too.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Cyberzombie

#20
April 20, 2006, 03:11:10 PM
If I was running an Amber game (which would require a functional set of rules, but that's another rant entirely), then I'd be a referee.  The players are in direct competition with each other, so a lot of my work would be refereeing their conflicts.

If I'm running a normal D&D game, though, I'm not refereeing.  It's them against my monsters.

Referee, to me, requires that there be a conflict between two or more actual human beings.  The game system or setting is irrelevent.  So, while DMing can involve that, it doesn't have to.
 

Maddman

#21
April 20, 2006, 03:12:50 PM
Quote from: CyberzombieIf I was running an Amber game (which would require a functional set of rules, but that's another rant entirely), then I'd be a referee.  The players are in direct competition with each other, so a lot of my work would be refereeing their conflicts.

If I'm running a normal D&D game, though, I'm not refereeing.  It's them against my monsters.

Referee, to me, requires that there be a conflict between two or more actual human beings.  The game system or setting is irrelevent.  So, while DMing can involve that, it doesn't have to.

SWINE!

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gleichman

#22
April 20, 2006, 03:17:41 PM
Quote from: CyberzombieIf I'm running a normal D&D game, though, I'm not refereeing.  It's them against my monsters.

Do you consider it a loss when your monsters are defeated and a win when the PC are?
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

gleichman

#23
April 20, 2006, 03:23:24 PM
Quote from: MaddmanSWINE!

Change his color!  Change his color!

Down swine boy! :stick:

You'd think someone tossed feed into the trough...
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Cyberzombie

#24
April 20, 2006, 03:34:41 PM
Quote from: gleichmanDo you consider it a loss when your monsters are defeated and a win when the PC are?

Nope.  The monsters are *there* to be defeated.  Or for the players to figure out that they're out of their league.  I try to make it challenging -- no point in playing if it isn't -- but I like heroic fantasy, so I want heroes who win in the end.

One opinion on terminology doesn't make me a damn swine, though.  :yell:
 

el-remmen

#25
April 20, 2006, 03:46:20 PM
I think it is a matter of semantics.  I have no problem being referred to as a RPG's "ref".  

I adjudicate and keep things "fair" (whatever that happens to mean in the particular style of play) and facilitate the rules.
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gleichman

#26
April 20, 2006, 03:52:59 PM
Quote from: CyberzombieNope.  The monsters are *there* to be defeated.  Or for the players to figure out that they're out of their league.  I try to make it challenging -- no point in playing if it isn't -- but I like heroic fantasy, so I want heroes who win in the end.

So, since you aren't playing to defeat the PCs- what you are in effect doing is making sure the rules are followed and (as best you can) insuring that the match in challenging.

Thus you are refereeing a conflict between them and the Monsters.

It's the traditional meaning of the term as used in rpgs to explain the odd character of the conflicts between PCs and GM controlled monsters.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Cyberzombie

#27
April 20, 2006, 03:55:44 PM
Quote from: gleichmanSo, since you aren't playing to defeat the PCs- what you are in effect doing is making sure the rules are followed and (as best you can) insuring that the match in challenging.

Thus you are refereeing a conflict between them and the Monsters.

It's the traditional meaning of the term as used in rpgs to explain the odd character of the conflicts between PCs and GM controlled monsters.
I can see that, by your definition.  I don't think of refereeing that way.  So we're both right, by our own definitions.  :)

There is a certain truth to your definition, though.  I am there to make things challenging (hopefully; I'm kind of a pushover DM) and interesting for the players.
 

gleichman

#28
April 20, 2006, 04:01:29 PM
Quote from: CyberzombieI can see that, by your definition.  I don't think of refereeing that way.  So we're both right, by our own definitions.  :)

Well I can't help it if you refuse to use the term in the proper ancient meaning as put down in the holy texts from the 70s :)


Quote from: CyberzombieThere is a certain truth to your definition, though.  I am there to make things challenging (hopefully; I'm kind of a pushover DM) and interesting for the players.

The idea of playing a game to entertain and challenge rather than defeat was seen as something very new back in the beginning of the hobby. After all, this was the high water mark of the wargame era from which rpgs grew.

The concept was key to a RPG as it wouldn't work otherwise. If you go back, you'll see how they fumbled to explain it.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Cyberzombie

#29
April 20, 2006, 04:41:54 PM
Quote from: gleichmanWell I can't help it if you refuse to use the term in the proper ancient meaning as put down in the holy texts from the 70s :)

There I go again, not paying attention to the holy texts.  :deviousgrin:

Quote from: gleichmanThe idea of playing a game to entertain and challenge rather than defeat was seen as something very new back in the beginning of the hobby. After all, this was the high water mark of the wargame era from which rpgs grew.

The concept was key to a RPG as it wouldn't work otherwise. If you go back, you'll see how they fumbled to explain it.

Definitely.  Your position is clear to me now, and that's actually a pretty darn good way to look at things.  :bow:
 
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