Greetings!
I have noticed a curious trend amongst groups of players recently. In these Adventurer League groups, no one seems to believe in being properly equipped for expeditions into the Unknown, especially dungeons.
"Do you all have a 10' Pole?" Blank stares.
"How about flasks of oil?" "Um..."
"Anyone have some iron spikes?" Chirp, chirp, chirp.
I'm just always boggled at how poorly equipped many of the adventurers are. But they have an embroidered handkerchief! Or a fine bottle of wine, or a mirror carved with happy kitties on it.
There has been several occasions when the group has encountered creatures in the dungeon where we could have gained significant advantage against them--but no one had the right equipment. My own extra gear being swiftly used up in earlier encounters, or of insufficient quantity for the plan. Still, it would have been very helpful and advantageous if other members of the group had been well-equipped for the expedition!
Have any of you had dealings with poorly-equipped groups of adventurers?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
In 5e, I've noticed this mainly with beginning characters and that's largely because of the base method of determining starting gear. Generally, most characters only have 10-15 gp that they can freely spend. Now that is enough for many of the basics you mention, but you are correct that they still get overlooked. What makes this even more amusing is that most characters can easily carry another 50 lbs. of gear beyond what they start with (probably 100 lbs. more for a barbarian) without being encumbered.
This comes down to not having as many basic exploration challenges in modern dungeons (and many adventures are not even in dungeons). Even when such challenges are there, players assume that they don't need any "fancy gear" to get by them. If they have Athletics, they assume they can climb safely without any gear, and if they have Perception, they assume they don't need to tap ahead with a pole. And we all know what they say about assumptions...they make a TPK out'a the party (or something like that).
I see this thread as being similar to recent thoughts I've had about players these days never hiring on NPCs when in makes good sense to do so. Hirelings are, essentially, complex "gear" that helps with adventuring. The complex part of them just adds to the fun (if done right).
Linking to the discussion from the "who do you bring with you" thread... this is the exact sort of "we'll need something, but won't know what until we encounter it" situations that magic IS better for (vs. spending it on creating food... something you can plan on needing).
It's rare in our parties to NOT have someone who can conjure up certain amounts of basic gear like ropes, poles, spikes, oil, etc. as needed (within the limits of their magic) precisely because you're often not sure if you're going to need excavation, climbing, anti-trap tomb robbing or some other type of specialized equipment until you get where you're going.
As such, rope (always useful), a light source and a knife and/or handax (for chopping wood not combat) is about all members regularly bring into dungeons (and thieves tools and similar class-related tools if so skilled). They have magic to conjure the rest (or outright negate the need for it in the first place).
I'm a big believer in bringing along a bow saw, shovel, sledge hammer, pick axe, chisels, a wedge, and a drill. Sure you'll want a mule or a hirling to carry the extra load or you can have the magic-user do it. Well not in Rolemaster where they're taking casting penalties by the pound. It's funny how many DMs don't want you modifiying or abusing the environment.
Isn't this where the "bag of equipment" comes in? Where the players roll for a chance that what they need is in the bag?
People assume there is no need to keep track of things that are rarely if ever needed.
That if it is important to "The Story" then, the character just has it.
Quote from: SHARK;1117851... a mirror carved with happy kitties on it.
To be fair, a mirror is awesome equipment.
Quote from: Greentongue;1117860Isn't this where the "bag of equipment" comes in? Where the players roll for a chance that what they need is in the bag?
People assume there is no need to keep track of things that are rarely if ever needed.
That if it is important to "The Story" then, the character just has it.
If it's not written on your character sheet the DM is well within their rights to say "no."
Well, I was that player in one of my current campaigns... I forgot to buy a lantern before leaving town on our first expedition. Whoopsie. It's dark out there, people.
I've only run a few games, but I usually tell players that they Just Get the adventuring toolkit that seems to be in most equipment charts: torches, backpack, water, rope.
That approach seems to have worked okay -- the handful of first timers kind of shrugged and noted it down, but a couple rooms into the dungeon discovered how useful that actually is. I think that might make the prep lesson "stickier" to get them thinking about prep ahead of time for later on.
Later on -- later in the campaign, or a new campaign with the now-more-experienced group -- they're on their own. :D
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1117867Later on -- later in the campaign, or a new campaign with the now-more-experienced group -- they're on their own. :D
Do you account for new characters as opposed to new players?
Do they get whatever they can think of (from experience)?
Quote from: Greentongue;1117872Do you account for new characters as opposed to new players?
Do they get whatever they can think of (from experience)?
It hasn't come up much for me yet.
While they're in town, anything in the equipment table (common, non-magical stuff) is up for purchase. I'll listen to reasons why something more exotic would be in stock but it's not a guarantee. If they don't buy it and it's not in their inventory, they don't have it.
A new character by an experienced player I'd expect to be equipped and if they go out unequipped -- the couple of times this has ever happened -- I've left them on their own / relying on other party members until they get back to town to go shopping. When I've screwed this up, that's how I've played it for my own characters, too.
It actually makes a certain sort of sense really.
Starting groups will be both underfunded and possibly under-informed for the needs of adventuring. But after one or two delves they will probably start to learn what they need to bring along just in case. Also depending on the type of adventuring. Even veteran adventurers may have never encountered a situation that needed a specific piece of gear.
Think of it as akin to the novice camper vs the experienced one.
Some novices will do some research and prepare as best they can.
Some will forge ahead with only the most rudimentary items.
Some will march off totally clueless.
etc.
Same with mapping. Or food and drink.
Something I recently started doing is including equipment categories right on the character sheet. For the most part, the categories used in the AD&D 1E PHB work best, though I do sub-divide "miscellaneous" a bit into Containers, Lighting, and Tools. The idea is by listing these out, the player at least stops and considers one by one whether some of the items that fit under the category are needed. I think it also makes it easier to locate on the sheet during the game, making it more likely to be used, which will make important equipment more likely to be selected in the future.
Quote from: SHARK;1117851Have any of you had dealings with poorly-equipped groups of adventurers?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I have noticed that my players roll with the standard package of rope and torches and then just Macgyver up what they need from what ever is lying around.
I mean if you need a 10' pole then there is always something that you can use.
Quote from: Shasarak;1117881I have noticed that my players roll with the standard package of rope and torches and then just Macgyver up what they need from what ever is lying around.
I mean if you need a 10' pole then there is always something that you can use.
That's the belief of an unprepared player--or one that thinks they are in a narrative game. Sometimes you can only rely on what you bring with you and it's not the DM's job to provide you with a parachute when you take a fall for not having what you needed.
5e has several backpacks with different collections of common equipment. That's pretty handy. I can't recall a 5e game where we failed at anything because of being poorly equipped.
The poke everything with a 10 foot pole convention is just silly; you waste a lot of time poking things, and if the GM wants to screw you because you didn't poke things then they're the sort of GM who will screw you anyway.
Quote from: rawma;11178855e has several backpacks with different collections of common equipment. That's pretty handy. I can't recall a 5e game where we failed at anything because of being poorly equipped.
The poke everything with a 10 foot pole convention is just silly; you waste a lot of time poking things, and if the GM wants to screw you because you didn't poke things then they're the sort of GM who will screw you anyway.
By "screw you" I think you mean "allow you to screw yourself" because the DM doesn't make your choices for you.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1117884That's the belief of an unprepared player--or one that thinks they are in a narrative game. Sometimes you can only rely on what you bring with you and it's not the DM's job to provide you with a parachute when you take a fall for not having what you needed.
So you disagree that it is easy to make a 10' poking stick from materials in the game if you decide you need a 10' poking stick?
You think that buying a 10' poking stick in a "store" is somehow a non-narrative game and picking up a branch from the ground is a narrative game?
Quote from: Shasarak;1117893So you disagree that it is easy to make a 10' poking stick from materials in the game if you decide you need a 10' poking stick?
You think that buying a 10' poking stick in a "store" is somehow a non-narrative game and picking up a branch from the ground is a narrative game?
Greetings!
God, come on, you guys. Yes, Shasarak, making the point to BUY a purpose-made, crafted, 10-foot Pole has advantages. It is more durable when setting off traps, poking around hard surfaces, or being bitten and snapped at by monsters, than some random branch you found along the way, that has a 30 degree curve at the end of it. Kudos fpr being eager to adapt and be resourceful, but having the foresight to be equipped with superior gear and tools is generally, far superior. There's a reason why anyone going out into the wilderness has choices of all kinds of specialized, finely crafted gear. It's more reliable, and does the job better, safer, and more consistently, than you just "winging it."
You must know this is true, Shasarak!:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1117899Greetings!
God, come on, you guys. Yes, Shasarak, making the point to BUY a purpose-made, crafted, 10-foot Pole has advantages. It is more durable when setting off traps, poking around hard surfaces, or being bitten and snapped at by monsters, than some random branch you found along the way, that has a 30 degree curve at the end of it. Kudos fpr being eager to adapt and be resourceful, but having the foresight to be equipped with superior gear and tools is generally, far superior. There's a reason why anyone going out into the wilderness has choices of all kinds of specialized, finely crafted gear. It's more reliable, and does the job better, safer, and more consistently, than you just "winging it."
You must know this is true, Shasarak!:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
SHARK you would be the last one that I would expect to full to the propaganda of Big Crafting but even you can see the folly of a durable 10' pole that is being used for setting off traps and or bitten by monsters. I mean after the first one then you are left with a 5' pole which is basically the same as just poking it with your sword.
Quote from: Shasarak;1117901SHARK you would be the last one that I would expect to full to the propaganda of Big Crafting but even you can see the folly of a durable 10' pole that is being used for setting off traps and or bitten by monsters. I mean after the first one then you are left with a 5' pole which is basically the same as just poking it with your sword.
Greetings!
Ahh. BIG CRAFTING!:D *laughing* That's great, my friend!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
The primary function of a ten foot pole is dangling the hog tied halfling thief into dark holes.
Nothing wrong with a 10' pole. But in most cases I'd rather have an 8' spear.
Quote from: SHARK;1117851In these Adventurer League groups, no one seems to believe in being properly equipped for expeditions into the Unknown, especially dungeons.
It's an AL game. AKA, show up and win, collect your rewards, rinse and repeat. The biggest risk to an AL character not getting goodies isn't the adventure, it's the GM not showing up for the auto-win session.
But as an OD&D GM, I'll eat a party that's equipped itself too.
Gear is heavy and bulky. I don't count ENC like a CPA, I just drop penalties when you load yourself down.
Holding a lantern and 10 foot pole at the front of the party? You're unarmed when the monster attacks.
That mule ain't silent...and its prey. We smells it my precious and it smells us.
Time is your enemy so watch my wicked smile grow as you spend too long searching.
But I don't run OD&D as heroic fantasy. For me, it's always horror fantasy. Dungeons are haunted houses in a world overrun by man eating monsters.
The most success parties I've GM'd have brought some good bits of gear, but far more importantly were constantly improvising and using stuff found in the dungeon against itself and kept in mind that dungeons are not amusement parks, but mysterious enemy territory where you are an invader without reinforcements.
Constantly dealt with this issue, down to the point where martial characters would only carry one weapon that the specialized in. No, not one weapon class, not one weapon damage type, not even one weapon style -- one weapon. It got so bad I had to start mocking people openly on tables about "You brought no ranged weapons? [or] You brought no melee weapons?" I had to mock further when it be down to the spell school or spell damage type. Or even basics like "You cast spells so you never thought you'd need a knife? Not even to cut rope or ANYTHING?!" :mad:
I mean it when I say I have to start from scratch with young new players. :( All permissioned-based thinking, structured-play-based "fairness" participation awards. Learning how to win or lose with grace. Thinking even remotely laterally. Asking any questions beyond, "How can I fuck my fellow player across the table, tee hee!" :(
It's sad and scary for our future, as these are often adult, or soon-to-be adults. Too much voluntary ostracism into virtual spaces has led to a morbid escapist introspection to the point of ouroboros, even solipsistic symbolic language (meme humor). It was funny and cute at the beginning, but who knew a generation raised on in would take such estrangement & sarcasm as gospel. :o
edit: I should add that I do see hope. :) The young are still keenly aware of what they don't know, like public socialization, and do seem interested in learning. What may be arrested development may merely be delayed development. :D
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1117912But in most cases I'd rather have an 8' spear.
That's why we bought polearms for the mercenaries in the 2nd rank!
Here's a gold piece. Now go poke that weird stone in the corner!
Greetings!
Yeah, in one group, we have a Firbolg Barbarian that is equipped with a Maul--a two-handed war hammer. Cool, but when I asked him what second weapon he had to fight in the dungeon's narrow hallway--he smiled stupidly, saying he has a hand axe. Ok, when progressing into a large cavern, where an evil troglodyte shaman is escaping, I fired my longbow and nailed him good, but he still managed to stagger on. Did the Firbolg Barbarian have a powerful longbow that he could finish the enemy off with?
No. He reddened. I don't have any kind of missile weapons.
My character says, "So, that means the Troglodyte shaman gets to escape to summon hordes of reinforcements against us, spoiling our great advantage of surprise. And you don't have a missile weapon? Great. Isn't that special."
*Sigh*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1117935Greetings!
Yeah, in one group, we have a Firbolg Barbarian that is equipped with a Maul--a two-handed war hammer. Cool, but when I asked him what second weapon he had to fight in the dungeon's narrow hallway--he smiled stupidly, saying he has a hand axe. Ok, when progressing into a large cavern, where an evil troglodyte shaman is escaping, I fired my longbow and nailed him good, but he still managed to stagger on. Did the Firbolg Barbarian have a powerful longbow that he could finish the enemy off with?
No. He reddened. I don't have any kind of missile weapons.
My character says, "So, that means the Troglodyte shaman gets to escape to summon hordes of reinforcements against us, spoiling our great advantage of surprise. And you don't have a missile weapon? Great. Isn't that special."
*Sigh*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Well a hand axe can be thrown at least, so at shorter ranges (up to 60 feet) he does have a ranged weapon.
My current 5e group is ... okay at this. My fighter is equipped with a glaive (which does double duty as a pole to poke things with), a magic javelin (for enemies that require magic to hit), a long sword and a long bow. Everyone has torches, we've got ball bearings, rope etc. But recently we discovered that none of us had though to bring any chalk, so I had to resort to using the wizards ink pen to mark traps on the floor. So, next stop is buying chalk.
Quote from: Blankman;1117937Well a hand axe can be thrown at least, so at shorter ranges (up to 60 feet) he does have a ranged weapon.
My current 5e group is ... okay at this. My fighter is equipped with a glaive (which does double duty as a pole to poke things with), a magic javelin (for enemies that require magic to hit), a long sword and a long bow. Everyone has torches, we've got ball bearings, rope etc. But recently we discovered that none of us had though to bring any chalk, so I had to resort to using the wizards ink pen to mark traps on the floor. So, next stop is buying chalk.
In third edition there was a cantrip called
arcane mark that allowed the wizard to inscribe glowing runes on just about anything. IMC I had designed a spell around or just after 1982 called
Glyph which was a first level spell that allowed a wizard to write magic inscriptions and illustrations permanently on any smooth or flat surface. This was a custom designed spell based on the third level cleric spell
Glyph of Warding, and the
Glyph spell just contained permanent magical writings, but no other spell effects. I also designed a 4th level wizards spell, that allows mages to create and cast
Glyphs of Warding as well. I keep Dragon #50 close at hand when running games, and it contains an article,
The Glyphs of Cerilon, that expands on the available
Glyph of Warding spell, and includes 49 news glyphs and a bunch of glyph related magic items. Really this is one of my favorite types of spell, and I always enjoyed having mages that could secretly leave notes, inscriptions, warnings, and other maps for other mages, for anyone that could use a read magic spell, or who possessed a gem or ring of seeing.
Quote from: Blankman;1117937Well a hand axe can be thrown at least, so at shorter ranges (up to 60 feet) he does have a ranged weapon.
So, next stop is buying chalk.
I love hand axes but carrying more than two is a bit silly. As for chalk, if you've got torches, you've got charcoal.
Groups in my games are usually not under-equipped. The vast majority of players are experienced enough to know what might be useful. When making characters with newbies, I give them a general equipment/price list, but I also have various example "bundles" (with their price) that include common/useful adventuring gear. Speeds things up and keeps people from forgetting stuff.
Quote from: David Johansen;1117943I love hand axes but carrying more than two is a bit silly. As for chalk, if you've got torches, you've got charcoal.
We've got light spells. Torches and a lantern as a backup, but spell-light produces no smoke, consumes no oxygen, doesn't flicker etc. So lighting a torch and waiting it out just for charcoal would probably have been impractical (we were on a timer trying to rescue some prisoners). But in a pinch, it might do, sure.
As for weapons, my fighter characters always tend to end up as walking arsenals (at least compared to the "I only carry one weapon" characters). But either way, if you just need a ranged weapon every now and then, two hand axes should do the trick (you should be able to retrieve them after the fight is done) although five javelins is probably better for that.
Quote from: Shasarak;1117881I have noticed that my players roll with the standard package of rope and torches and then just Macgyver up what they need from what ever is lying around.
I mean if you need a 10' pole then there is always something that you can use.
Your spear shaft will do just as well. You don't need a specific long pole.
What do you mean you don't carry a spear, they're great, all of the dangerous stuff happens at the other end.
I've tried adding pre-built packs to the gear list in my game. It seemed great in theory, but it didn't really achieve what I was hoping for in practice. Yes, is sped up character creation (the first time), but it didn't seem to help players make use of gear to solve problems. Nobody who took a pre-built pack ever thought to look inside it, as it were. If anything, I've found having players select individual items encourages them to think about how those items might be used.
As is seen even in this thread so far, there are two basic schools of thought.
1) If it isn't written down, it don't exist
2) Sure if it seems like you would have it, consider that you have it.
#1s love lists of equipment, equipment books and the like. If there is a difference between a knife and a dagger, and 4 different kinds of lanterns even better. They can happily spend half a session gearing up for an expedition.
#2s just want to get at it, and hand wave lists "of course you have some string".
It seems like a lot of games have shifted to the second style.
I am firmly in the first camp. I can certainly see the appeal to the second, much more time is spent on doing stuff, no need to track lists of mundane items etc. There is much less need for the player to actually have any outdoor skills to rely on packing for an expedition.
Me I love stuff, I enjoy trying to balance encumbrance vs being prepared and thinking about alternate uses for stuff. Separating my gear into what is expendable in my main pack, and the critical stuff carried in a smaller "survival" pack. The small pack being just the core essentials if I need to ditch the heavy pack and run for it.
I can have as much fun playing a session shopping in town, and gaining intel in preparation for an expedition as fighting a horde of orcs.
The critical part is understanding expectations. I suspect many of these players in the OP just haven't been exposed to the idea of detailed lists.
Quote from: Blankman;1117945We've got light spells. Torches and a lantern as a backup, but spell-light produces no smoke, consumes no oxygen, doesn't flicker etc. So lighting a torch and waiting it out just for charcoal would probably have been impractical (we were on a timer trying to rescue some prisoners). But in a pinch, it might do, sure.
As for weapons, my fighter characters always tend to end up as walking arsenals (at least compared to the "I only carry one weapon" characters). But either way, if you just need a ranged weapon every now and then, two hand axes should do the trick (you should be able to retrieve them after the fight is done) although five javelins is probably better for that.
I'd like to see you chop through a door with your javelin.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1117958As is seen even in this thread so far, there are two basic schools of thought.
1) If it isn't written down, it don't exist
2) Sure if it seems like you would have it, consider that you have it.
#1s love lists of equipment, equipment books and the like. If there is a difference between a knife and a dagger, and 4 different kinds of lanterns even better. They can happily spend half a session gearing up for an expedition.
#2s just want to get at it, and hand wave lists "of course you have some string".
It seems like a lot of games have shifted to the second style.
There is also the third school of thought which is that you take your basic equipment with you and then improvise any additional equipment you might need as you go.
Take for example one poster who regretted that he forgot to buy chalk at Ye Olde ACME Shoppe who would be in School 1 and another poster who would improvise charcoal from a burnt torch who would be in School 3.
Or maybe another example. Our heroes are stuck in an upstairs room and want to escape through the window:
School 1. Either has Rope written on their sheet in which case they can use that rope to escape or does not have Rope so therefore can not escape.
School 2. May or may not have rope but assumes that of course they would have had Rope so therefore the Schrodingers Rope appears just in time to be of use.
School 3. Either has Rope already or looks around the room and uses the sheets on the bed to make a jury-rigged rope that can be used to escape from the room while also accepting that their bedsheet rope is neither as durable nor as straight as an ACME store bought rope.
Easy access to the gear you need at the moment you need it is very cinematic, deux ex machina. For players who want RPGs that play like their favorite movies, this style is what they expect. It's in line with the concept of Heroic Fantasy where its pre-ordained that the Hero will best the Villain at the end of the story.
This is exactly why my players are informed that I run OD&D as Horror Fantasy. Except for the Final Hero, everybody else in a horror movie is probably fucked and if they survive, its usually due to a combo of wits and luck. Thus, I approach the game from that concept upfront.
This is not to say my way is superior (except for me because I freaking love it). It's a difference in styles and expectations and those are best understood by everyone before the game starts.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1117958As is seen even in this thread so far, there are two basic schools of thought.
1) If it isn't written down, it don't exist
2) Sure if it seems like you would have it, consider that you have it.
#1s love lists of equipment, equipment books and the like. If there is a difference between a knife and a dagger, and 4 different kinds of lanterns even better. They can happily spend half a session gearing up for an expedition.
#2s just want to get at it, and hand wave lists "of course you have some string".
It seems like a lot of games have shifted to the second style.
I am firmly in the first camp. I can certainly see the appeal to the second, much more time is spent on doing stuff, no need to track lists of mundane items etc. There is much less need for the player to actually have any outdoor skills to rely on packing for an expedition.
Me I love stuff, I enjoy trying to balance encumbrance vs being prepared and thinking about alternate uses for stuff. Separating my gear into what is expendable in my main pack, and the critical stuff carried in a smaller "survival" pack. The small pack being just the core essentials if I need to ditch the heavy pack and run for it.
I can have as much fun playing a session shopping in town, and gaining intel in preparation for an expedition as fighting a horde of orcs.
The critical part is understanding expectations. I suspect many of these players in the OP just haven't been exposed to the idea of detailed lists.
Greetings!
Exactly, Toadmaster! Good analysis! I have some considerable real-world experience at surviving in the wilderness, and a fondness, and respect, for various kinds of essential gear involved in such expeditions. Indeed, within the game, spending time shopping amidst the various markets searching out the appropriate gear, tracking down bits of lore, meeting interesting locals--it is all part of the game, in my mind. In a role-playing game, I am kind of boggled why anyone would not enjoy such activity.
And yeah, I'm definitely of the school that if you don't have it written down, you don't have it. I'm not big on the whole abstract "Amazon Bag of Goodies" Characters struggling with resource management, skilled and novel usage of tools and gear, pitting their will to survive and their skills and knowledge of woodcraft against the natural environment and the weather, the desperate struggle for survival against a harsh and unforgiving wilderness--these things are just as important a part of the expedition, and the adventure, as fighting a band of Orcs, or chasing down a group of brigands. Survival, knowledge, tools, struggling against animals and the environment, this is all part of the adventure. Just as when facing challenges in the dungeon, a misstep, or miscalculation in such an environment can prove to be swiftly fatal, let alone singular actions of stupidity or poor judgement.
I remember one of my first times out in the field with my Marines. I "winged" it, and brought just the bare essentials. I had my canteen of water, for eample. I soon learned from a buddy, who had searched out this special small kettle, big enough for holding like, 12 ounces. He had a small, steel grill that was like, the size of your palm. Fire for the grill produced with a heat tab, and within a few minutes, the bastard had piping hot, fresh hot chocolate. Day or Night. He could make hot chocolate, hot flavoured tea, or coffee as well. What a difference that little kit made for the expedition!
The next time out, I also brought my own, so there was also more to share. Amazing how much better the men feel out in the cold rain, crawling about in our trenches and fighting pits, when we have a little fire going, and something hot and good to drink!
Successful expeditions into the wilderness are heavily dependent on having proper gear. The idea of "winging it" and "Oh, well, we can just improvise as we go" puts your life needlessly at risk, or simply ensures far more struggle, pain, or suffering.
All because such characters could not be bothered enough to spend the time and resources appropriately bringing along essential and specialized gear to help ensure the expedition would have a maximized chance of success. Definitely, good and thorough planning, and being well-equipped for the journey is the better way to proceed.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1117964spending time shopping amidst the various markets searching out the appropriate gear, tracking down bits of lore, meeting interesting locals--it is all part of the game, in my mind. In a role-playing game, I am kind of boggled why anyone would not enjoy such activity.
I wouldn't enjoy it for the same reason that - in the context of a more sci-fi game - an extended conversation about the precise methodology and programs a hacker uses to fuck up the Gibson would be incredibly boring for you: because you're ignorant of the subject matter and you don't find it interesting.
And if - for whatever fucking reason - it turns out that you do know a thing or two about slinging code, feel free to replace that example with some other topic of which you have no knowledge and in which you have no interest.
I'm not going to spend time to learn about how wilderness survival works for the sole purpose of making a
fucking game more interesting. I assume there are tools and skill sets that make that part of the thing easier, and we can simply assume they're there without getting into the bullshit of needing 10 foot poles because suddenly we're in the 70s and have a bunch of dickbag GMs again. I'm not really interested in getting into whether or not a player packed 50 feet of rope, or 60.
This is like bitching about the lack of lucerne hammers and bec de corbins and whatever other weird-ass polearms Gygax had a fetish for. Guess what, we (probably) don't need twenty different fucking polearms, we only need enough for a little variety. Same goes for random adventuring gear: it is
better for the game if we can reduce all this shit about... poles and random tools and whatever into smaller lists with more obvious uses. Shit like "jungle exploration pack" or whatever. Why? Because (1) the vast majority of your audience has no fucking clue how to do the thing the pack is for, so probably couldn't reasonably plan for it anyway, and (2) it simplifies shit for everybody, just write that down and move on.
QuoteAll because such characters could not be bothered enough to spend the time and resources appropriately bringing along essential and specialized gear to help ensure the expedition would have a maximized chance of success. Definitely, good and thorough planning, and being well-equipped for the journey is the better way to proceed.
Yeah, because 12th level characters
really give a shit about 10 foot poles.
Quote from: GnomeWorks;1117966I'm not going to spend time to learn about how wilderness survival works for the sole purpose of making a fucking game more interesting. I assume there are tools and skill sets that make that part of the thing easier, and we can simply assume they're there without getting into the bullshit of needing 10 foot poles because suddenly we're in the 70s and have a bunch of dickbag GMs again. I'm not really interested in getting into whether or not a player packed 50 feet of rope, or 60.
Same goes for random adventuring gear: it is better for the game if we can reduce all this shit about... poles and random tools and whatever into smaller lists with more obvious uses. Shit like "jungle exploration pack" or whatever. Why? Because (1) the vast majority of your audience has no fucking clue how to do the thing the pack is for, so probably couldn't reasonably plan for it anyway, and (2) it simplifies shit for everybody, just write that down and move on.
Yeah, because 12th level characters really give a shit about 10 foot poles.
Greetings!
Well, interesting, Gnomeworks. Like someone mentioned, it seems to be a thing of taste. Spinachcat and Toadmaster highlighted different "schools of thought."
I think though that adopting a kind of "Amazon Bag of Goodies" all in the name of *simplifying* any kind of equipment or gear list embraces a level of abstraction that I don't prefer. All in an effort to appeal to convenience and simplification for the players. Hmm. Something seems to be lost with doing that.
I suppose I am some dinosaur that insists my players write shit down, and pay fucking attention to being well-equipped for expeditions, and having their shit together.:D They eventually learn, or suffer and die in the process.:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: HappyDaze;1117886By "screw you" I think you mean "allow you to screw yourself" because the DM doesn't make your choices for you.
Greetings!
*Laughs* Exactly, HappyDaze! "Allowing you to screw yourself!"
Players need to learn to make good choices, and become skilled in judgement and planning. They can't just lazily shrug and assume the Dues Ex Machina like some celebrity movie is going to sweep in and save them from their own stupidity or laziness.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: David Johansen;1117910The primary function of a ten foot pole is dangling the hog tied halfling thief into dark holes.
Greetings!
So true, David Johansen! *Laughs* That's the real purpose of the 10-foot pole!:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GnomeWorks;1117966it is better for the game if we can reduce all this shit about... poles and random tools and whatever into smaller lists with more obvious uses. Shit like "jungle exploration pack" or whatever. Why? Because (1) the vast majority of your audience has no fucking clue how to do the thing the pack is for, so probably couldn't reasonably plan for it anyway, and (2) it simplifies shit for everybody, just write that down and move on.
Adults of the current gaming population might be too fucking dumb to figure out what's in a "jungle exploration pack", but kids and teens do just fine. I can easily tell them to write out 5 things in that pack and I'll get a killer list. And those little nimrods will figure out a laundry list of things to do with their weird bits in their pack.
*I once had a little kid ask if he could buy a bag of melted down candles. Why??? So he could set them up and it would look like they were burning a long time and fool the monsters that somebody had been in that room a long time. I know we can't expect that level of IQ from the WotC drones who show up at game stores for their auto-win sessions, but creativity does still exist at some game tables.
For many gamers, that creativity is key to their fun. For some, the gear minutiae is beloved. For others, its not. As always, its on the GM to understand what's the dynamic of his group and clearly convey what kind of game he wants to run for them.
But that's not to say massive gear lists are better than sparse lists. I have "polearm" as a weapon choice in my OD&D, not the Gygaxian mega-list. It's a long axe-spear hybrid with cosmetic variations between cultures, but all are good for poking shit from the second rank.
I also have no interest in my RPG session devolving into a shopping trip, and there is much virtue in getting on with the adventure without too much ado BUT each table has to note where "simplifying shit" results in diminished returns.
Quote from: GnomeWorks;1117966Yeah, because 12th level characters really give a shit about 10 foot poles.
Depends on the edition and game style. When I ran 4e, it was heroic fantasy so 1st level PCs didn't need 10 foot poles.
My OD&D maxes at 10th level, and they certainly care about mundane gear. Of course, they have henchmen and mercenaries to carry stuff and poke about in creepy corners. But in a
horror fantasy game, the need for mundane gear doesn't vanish.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1117970Adults of the current gaming population might be too fucking dumb to figure out what's in a "jungle exploration pack", but kids and teens do just fine. I can easily tell them to write out 5 things in that pack and I'll get a killer list. And those little nimrods will figure out a laundry list of things to do with their weird bits in their pack.
*I once had a little kid ask if he could buy a bag of melted down candles. Why??? So he could set them up and it would look like they were burning a long time and fool the monsters that somebody had been in that room a long time. I know we can't expect that level of IQ from the WotC drones who show up at game stores for their auto-win sessions, but creativity does still exist at some game tables.
For many gamers, that creativity is key to their fun. For some, the gear minutiae is beloved. For others, its not. As always, its on the GM to understand what's the dynamic of his group and clearly convey what kind of game he wants to run for them.
But that's not to say massive gear lists are better than sparse lists. I have "polearm" as a weapon choice in my OD&D, not the Gygaxian mega-list. It's a long axe-spear hybrid with cosmetic variations between cultures, but all are good for poking shit from the second rank.
I also have no interest in my RPG session devolving into a shopping trip, and there is much virtue in getting on with the adventure without too much ado BUT each table has to note where "simplifying shit" results in diminished returns.
Depends on the edition and game style. When I ran 4e, it was heroic fantasy so 1st level PCs didn't need 10 foot poles.
My OD&D maxes at 10th level, and they certainly care about mundane gear. Of course, they have henchmen and mercenaries to carry stuff and poke about in creepy corners. But in a horror fantasy game, the need for mundane gear doesn't vanish.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Great points, Spinachcat!:D That reminds me as well, why do 12 year old kids easily jump into equipment lists, and grok the idea of being well-equipped, but all of this is just so terribly complex and difficult for modern adult players?
I have watched more than a few occasions where groups of 10, 12, 14 year old kids happily spend an hour pouring over the book, carefully recording their equipment, resolving arguments about why they need to bring X, but not Y, and only a few of Z. It is always hilarious!
They do seem to take it all very seriously though. Oftentimes being quite meticulous in gathering their gear, with a clear understanding of what they might use whatever gear for.
And they can be zealous, too. "No, Megan! Don't forget to bring a fishing net! You NEED it to catch fish in the forest rivers, so we don't starve!":D
They also appreciate 10-foot poles so they can poke pits full of squishy, gooey slimes and spiders, moving it about to see what might lie at the bottom of the pit. Like my niece Lyssa told her sister, simply, "If you don't bring a 10-foot pole, then we will just throw you into the pits to explore them for hidden treasure. You can wade into gooey spiders and muck. How does that sound, Megan?":D Her sister Megan brought a 10-foot pole. *laughs*
Good fun.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1117964Greetings!
Exactly, Toadmaster! Good analysis! I have some considerable real-world experience at surviving in the wilderness, and a fondness, and respect, for various kinds of essential gear involved in such expeditions. Indeed, within the game, spending time shopping amidst the various markets searching out the appropriate gear, tracking down bits of lore, meeting interesting locals--it is all part of the game, in my mind. In a role-playing game, I am kind of boggled why anyone would not enjoy such activity.
And yeah, I'm definitely of the school that if you don't have it written down, you don't have it. I'm not big on the whole abstract "Amazon Bag of Goodies" Characters struggling with resource management, skilled and novel usage of tools and gear, pitting their will to survive and their skills and knowledge of woodcraft against the natural environment and the weather, the desperate struggle for survival against a harsh and unforgiving wilderness--these things are just as important a part of the expedition, and the adventure, as fighting a band of Orcs, or chasing down a group of brigands. Survival, knowledge, tools, struggling against animals and the environment, this is all part of the adventure. Just as when facing challenges in the dungeon, a misstep, or miscalculation in such an environment can prove to be swiftly fatal, let alone singular actions of stupidity or poor judgement.
I remember one of my first times out in the field with my Marines. I "winged" it, and brought just the bare essentials. I had my canteen of water, for eample. I soon learned from a buddy, who had searched out this special small kettle, big enough for holding like, 12 ounces. He had a small, steel grill that was like, the size of your palm. Fire for the grill produced with a heat tab, and within a few minutes, the bastard had piping hot, fresh hot chocolate. Day or Night. He could make hot chocolate, hot flavoured tea, or coffee as well. What a difference that little kit made for the expedition!
The next time out, I also brought my own, so there was also more to share. Amazing how much better the men feel out in the cold rain, crawling about in our trenches and fighting pits, when we have a little fire going, and something hot and good to drink!
Successful expeditions into the wilderness are heavily dependent on having proper gear. The idea of "winging it" and "Oh, well, we can just improvise as we go" puts your life needlessly at risk, or simply ensures far more struggle, pain, or suffering.
All because such characters could not be bothered enough to spend the time and resources appropriately bringing along essential and specialized gear to help ensure the expedition would have a maximized chance of success. Definitely, good and thorough planning, and being well-equipped for the journey is the better way to proceed.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
One great thing is that, with a DM like SHARK that cares about the details and in the right setting, you could probably pay an expedition outfitter NPC to put together the gear needed (assuming you can tell him where you're going, when you're going, how long you're going to be gone, and a number of other details that will help him to tailor to your needs). Sure, you could do it yourself, but in a world with adventurers, explorers, and expeditions, there are going to be hirelings that can help with this task if the players don't want to do it themselves.
BX actually baked part of all this right into the gameplay. A turn took so long because the PCs were travelling carefully and searching and testing with whatever they had on hand as they went. Interestingly while iron spikes and 50ft of rope are listed. No 10ft pole in Basic. Expert added a crowbar, grappling hook, and the pole. Actually states the poles use even. Test pools, poke at piles of rags, etc. Spikes were to pin open or closed doors or anchor a rope. A rope could support 3 people.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1117974One great thing is that, with a DM like SHARK that cares about the details and in the right setting, you could probably pay an expedition outfitter NPC to put together the gear needed (assuming you can tell him where you're going, when you're going, how long you're going to be gone, and a number of other details that will help him to tailor to your needs). Sure, you could do it yourself, but in a world with adventurers, explorers, and expeditions, there are going to be hirelings that can help with this task if the players don't want to do it themselves.
Greetings!
*Laughs* That's right, HappyDaze! You are quite right! In my campaigns, there are expedition outfitters in large cities, in towns, and occasionally such knowledgeable folks in villages, especially in rough, borderlands where explorations and expeditions are prominent. Meeting with them, consulting with them, can get you and your companions fitted out very well, with specialized and tailored packages of gear and equipment based on what kind of environment or area you expect to be going. I have each environment with a specialized package, a list of special gear, all priced and ready to go.
And, not surprisingly, these skilled Outfitters are also knowledgeable and well-versed in the local area, animals, dangers, and lore, and present some excellent role-playing episodes for wise and thorough player characters. Outfitters often know of a group of professional guides, expert trackers and hunters, as well as valuable support services, like wagon-masters, horse-breeders, herbalists, and taxidermists, professional skinners and trappers, skilled boatmen, in addition to mercenary connections, professional bodyguards, and in some areas, friendly barbarian groups. They can also often connect you with skilled interpreters knowledgeable in various monster and barbarian tribal languages and cultures. Such experts accompanying you and your group on your expedition can often mean the difference between you making some new friends, and succeeding, or being unexpectedly taken prisoner, and stretched out to be tortured by fire and eaten alive by giant ants.:D
Players that pay attention to such professional Outfitters and others, can sometimes learn to take advantage of various circumstances and resources to cultivate windfall business opportunities and rewarding professional and social relationships.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: David Johansen;1117959I'd like to see you chop through a door with your javelin.
That's what fireballs or the guy playing the Half-Ogre are for. :D
More seriously though, the campaigns I run/play in tend towards the heroic fantasy side of the scale where magic is both more available (many basic effects are at-will... usable for as long as a warrior could swing a sword without tiring), but also more limited on the top end (i.e. there are no wish spells you can just memorize... that sort of thing is an artifact you quest for).
Summoning up basic gear (in D&D terms, one or more items worth a total of about 10 gp at any one time) that last up to an hour (or until you use the spell again; expended consumables also reduce the amount you can create with later castings of the spell for 24 hours so you can't conjure up infinite food) is one of the more basic forms of magic a spellcaster can learn.
The spells isn't quite cantrip easy, but it's still a pretty solid contender to be known by at least one of the party spellcasters because it covers for a lot of the really mundane utility items without needing to track specific ones.
As I mentioned previously, improvised equipment is one of the areas that magic is much better saved to deal with (i.e. solving for unknowns)... vs. using spells like goodberry in place of things simple logistics can handle (i.e. food is a known requirement that can be planned for... using your limited magic resources to solve that isn't good planning).
Quote from: David Johansen;1117959I'd like to see you chop through a door with your javelin.
Fighting axes tend to be too thin with too small heads to make for good door choppers. But even if they were, that just means sacrificing more range for greater utility as a door smasher. And I could counter with saying that I'd like to see you use your hand axe as a long pole for poking and prodding.
Quote from: Shasarak;1117960There is also the third school of thought which is that you take your basic equipment with you and then improvise any additional equipment you might need as you go.
Take for example one poster who regretted that he forgot to buy chalk at Ye Olde ACME Shoppe who would be in School 1 and another poster who would improvise charcoal from a burnt torch who would be in School 3.
Or maybe another example. Our heroes are stuck in an upstairs room and want to escape through the window:
School 1. Either has Rope written on their sheet in which case they can use that rope to escape or does not have Rope so therefore can not escape.
School 2. May or may not have rope but assumes that of course they would have had Rope so therefore the Schrodingers Rope appears just in time to be of use.
School 3. Either has Rope already or looks around the room and uses the sheets on the bed to make a jury-rigged rope that can be used to escape from the room while also accepting that their bedsheet rope is neither as durable nor as straight as an ACME store bought rope.
Did you miss the part where I said we then used a substitute instead of the chalk, or that we weren't actually using torches so we didn't have any charcoal available?
Quote from: Blankman;1117984Did you miss the part where I said we then used a substitute instead of the chalk, or that we weren't actually using torches so we didn't have any charcoal available?
It was just an example.
This sort of thing is one where the character should be making smart choices about what to bring rather than the player.
In the same way that I don't have to know how to climb the rigging of a ship or set sails to play a pirate I shouldn't have to know optimal camping procedures to play a ranger. This is why there is a survival skill on the sheet, not so I can use my own OOC knowledge to bypass the skill on the sheet.
When running games I think I'm going to start having each character make a survival test at the start of an expedition, success means you have the necessary gear for basic camping, failure means that you brought the accordion and the armour polish but forgot the tent pegs.
I appreciate and enjoy the fun that can be had from improvising solutions out of iron pegs, door wedges, rope and the 10 foot pole but I don't want to stitch my players up if they forget to buy something.
Quote from: Altheus;1117988This sort of thing is one where the character should be making smart choices about what to bring rather than the player.
In the same way that I don't have to know how to climb the rigging of a ship or set sails to play a pirate I shouldn't have to know optimal camping procedures to play a ranger. This is why there is a survival skill on the sheet, not so I can use my own OOC knowledge to bypass the skill on the sheet.
When running games I think I'm going to start having each character make a survival test at the start of an expedition, success means you have the necessary gear for basic camping, failure means that you brought the accordion and the armour polish but forgot the tent pegs.
I appreciate and enjoy the fun that can be had from improvising solutions out of iron pegs, door wedges, rope and the 10 foot pole but I don't want to stitch my players up if they forget to buy something.
Even someone trained in Survival (by 5e terms) might not necessarily know all of the tricky things that come up in dungeoneering. I think 3e (and/or 4e?) had this as a distinct skill and I'm somewhat surprised it didn't remain.
I do agree that character knowledge should help, and a DM can always allow an Intelligence or Wisdom check to realize a certain piece of gear might be essential (or you can hire someone to do this kind of thing).
Many times it's because some players especially new ones to the hobby are not experienced enough players to think of bringing everything. Mostly it is encumbrance and not being able to carry everything one wants in a character. Either using Herolab or not just being the standard class kit, weapons and armor can slow done a character to being light to medium encumbrance. Only the high Str melee types can carry almost everything they want at first level. So if the DM like myself tracks encumbrance and most do one is not going to have every tool for the job at least at lower levels.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1117990Even someone trained in Survival (by 5e terms) might not necessarily know all of the tricky things that come up in dungeoneering. I think 3e (and/or 4e?) had this as a distinct skill and I'm somewhat surprised it didn't remain.
I do agree that character knowledge should help, and a DM can always allow an Intelligence or Wisdom check to realize a certain piece of gear might be essential (or you can hire someone to do this kind of thing).
Once again, ACKS has this covered. Every PC has the Adventuring proficiency by default, which covers knowing how to equip for and function in an adventuring expedition.
Quote from: SHARK;1117935Greetings!
Yeah, in one group, we have a Firbolg Barbarian that is equipped with a Maul--a two-handed war hammer. Cool, but when I asked him what second weapon he had to fight in the dungeon's narrow hallway--he smiled stupidly, saying he has a hand axe. Ok, when progressing into a large cavern, where an evil troglodyte shaman is escaping, I fired my longbow and nailed him good, but he still managed to stagger on. Did the Firbolg Barbarian have a powerful longbow that he could finish the enemy off with?
No. He reddened. I don't have any kind of missile weapons.
My character says, "So, that means the Troglodyte shaman gets to escape to summon hordes of reinforcements against us, spoiling our great advantage of surprise. And you don't have a missile weapon? Great. Isn't that special."
*Sigh*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Sounds like you know my pain. :o
:mad: And what really chaps my hide is how people complain about the Fighter being so boring -- and the (Schroediger's) Wizard oh so flexible! -- and they deliberately ignore one of the
Fighter's main strengths: proficiency in all martial gear. All it takes is some prep, coinage, packaging, and encumbrance room to solve many a problem.
But did you have to be so callous to the poor wilting barbarian's player's feelings? These snowflakes are trying, trying oh so hard! :( Gentle mockery, and shared gluten-free snacks, that's the way. :p Like a nursing foal, you have to coax them to their feet before life's predators eat them. ;)
Quote from: Blankman;1117937Well a hand axe can be thrown at least, so at shorter ranges (up to 60 feet) he does have a ranged weapon.
My current 5e group is ... okay at this. My fighter is equipped with a glaive (which does double duty as a pole to poke things with), a magic javelin (for enemies that require magic to hit), a long sword and a long bow. Everyone has torches, we've got ball bearings, rope etc. But recently we discovered that none of us had though to bring any chalk, so I had to resort to using the wizards ink pen to mark traps on the floor. So, next stop is buying chalk.
Chalk is very powerful! :) It is the reverse of charcoal, being bright instead of dark, and highly visible in broad strokes. And you can grind it ahead of time and turn it into tracking powder, or a quick silent alarm -- that defeats darkvision lack of detail -- and an emergency attack (a blinding & coughing agent), too! Talcum sticks, chalk, even with a bit of binder (fat/clay), is a great tool. And cheap!
Quote from: GameDaddy;1117942In third edition there was a cantrip called arcane mark that allowed the wizard to inscribe glowing runes on just about anything. IMC I had designed a spell around or just after 1982 called Glyph which was a first level spell that allowed a wizard to write magic inscriptions and illustrations permanently on any smooth or flat surface. This was a custom designed spell based on the third level cleric spell Glyph of Warding, and the Glyph spell just contained permanent magical writings, but no other spell effects. I also designed a 4th level wizards spell, that allows mages to create and cast Glyphs of Warding as well. I keep Dragon #50 close at hand when running games, and it contains an article, The Glyphs of Cerilon, that expands on the available Glyph of Warding spell, and includes 49 news glyphs and a bunch of glyph related magic items. Really this is one of my favorite types of spell, and I always enjoyed having mages that could secretly leave notes, inscriptions, warnings, and other maps for other mages, for anyone that could use a read magic spell, or who possessed a gem or ring of seeing.
5e has the equivalent in Prestidigitation, where you can create up to three of such marks, which last an hour. Basically you can tag a colorful glyph onto something within 10' with just a Verbal component. It is a Cantrip, meaning you can cast one every six seconds, endlessly. Ths function of Prestidigitation is almost NEVER used in Adventure League play. :( This lack of recognized value pains me, too.
Quote from: David Johansen;1117943I love hand axes but carrying more than two is a bit silly. As for chalk, if you've got torches, you've got charcoal.
Yeah, there are reasonable limits to handaxes. And yes, charcoal is a great asset, too. But again, most modern tables don't even know where to begin with such old-style lateral thinking. That said, talcum chalk and charcoal sticks are really two different assets due to their composition and visibility.
Charcoal is also great for making lye in time (water & charcoal), then using lye to make soap (lipid & denaturer like lye), and charcoal can be pulverized into a) inks (powdered charcoal & water) and b) "activated" (just means pulverized fine) into anti-toxin medicine, usually for ingestion. Chalk is a bit more expendable (less uses) and visible, which lends itself worth the copper piece. :)
Yes, I sorta roleplay MacGuyver, if my PC has decent knowledge or wisdom. :p
Quote from: Altheus;1117988This sort of thing is one where the character should be making smart choices about what to bring rather than the player.
In the same way that I don't have to know how to climb the rigging of a ship or set sails to play a pirate I shouldn't have to know optimal camping procedures to play a ranger. This is why there is a survival skill on the sheet, not so I can use my own OOC knowledge to bypass the skill on the sheet.
When running games I think I'm going to start having each character make a survival test at the start of an expedition, success means you have the necessary gear for basic camping, failure means that you brought the accordion and the armour polish but forgot the tent pegs.
I appreciate and enjoy the fun that can be had from improvising solutions out of iron pegs, door wedges, rope and the 10 foot pole but I don't want to stitch my players up if they forget to buy something.
I just assume that PC v. Player knowledge divide is solved by the assumption of Class (and Kit or Background) altogether. Basic knowledge to survive your immediate world is assumed, basic knowledge to do your class is assumed, and then basic knowledge to do your kit/background is assumed. NWPs (2e) are professional level knowledge. Proficient & Expertise (5e) are pro and expert level knowledge (that means lower your DCs, kids! enough with the DC inflation. ;))
I help out my players all the time with things they don't know, but their PCs do. I don't find that to be leading them. It's just covering what should be known, as I would expect, and then informing them. If they learn someing new from it, great! :) I in turn expect similar and look forward when people teach me something about a subject I did not know about. :)
Quote from: Opaopajr;11180015e has the equivalent in Prestidigitation, where you can create up to three of such marks, which last an hour. Basically you can tag a colorful glyph onto something within 10' with just a Verbal component. It is a Cantrip, meaning you can cast one every six seconds, endlessly. Ths function of Prestidigitation is almost NEVER used in Adventure League play. :( This lack of recognized value pains me, too.
Well, the Prestidigitation spell requires Somatic components too, but more importantly, "You make a color, a small mark, or a Symbol appear on an object or a surface for 1 hour. If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have up to three of its non-instantaneous Effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action." So no more than three such marks, not "endless" magical sharpie.
Somatic, yup, forgot that. :) But my first line does mention "up to three of such marks." ;) Yes, there is a limit on marks quantity, but no real limit on casting quantity. You may cycle out your three tags all day long (along with light or extinguish flammable light sources, clean & reflavor things, and create range-limited magical trinkets) ... :rolleyes: I fucking hate 5e Cantrips.
As my players have aged and gotten lazy, and games have shifted focus to accomodate that laziness, I regularly have conversations like this:
"So, you're all ready to delve into the Crypt of the Necromasher?"
"Yups!"
"Are you sure, guys? All you've brought is a roll of toilet paper, a damp sack and that bunch of feathers you decided was important enough to write on your sheet three sessions back."
"AH-YUPS!"
/smh
Quote from: He-Ra;1118010As my players have aged and gotten lazy, and games have shifted focus to accomodate that laziness, I regularly have conversations like this:
"So, you're all ready to delve into the Crypt of the Necromasher?"
"Yups!"
"Are you sure, guys? All you've brought is a roll of toilet paper, a damp sack and that bunch of feathers you decided was important enough to write on your sheet three sessions back."
"AH-YUPS!"
/smh
:D Change up to playing Doctor Who and give them all sonic screwdrivers?
Quote from: Shasarak;1117960There is also the third school of thought which is that you take your basic equipment with you and then improvise any additional equipment you might need as you go.
Take for example one poster who regretted that he forgot to buy chalk at Ye Olde ACME Shoppe who would be in School 1 and another poster who would improvise charcoal from a burnt torch who would be in School 3.
Or maybe another example. Our heroes are stuck in an upstairs room and want to escape through the window:
School 1. Either has Rope written on their sheet in which case they can use that rope to escape or does not have Rope so therefore can not escape.
School 2. May or may not have rope but assumes that of course they would have had Rope so therefore the Schrodingers Rope appears just in time to be of use.
School 3. Either has Rope already or looks around the room and uses the sheets on the bed to make a jury-rigged rope that can be used to escape from the room while also accepting that their bedsheet rope is neither as durable nor as straight as an ACME store bought rope.
My players generally go with School 1. which is the boy scout way - Be prepared, as a primary concern, backed up by School 3. which is the application of common sense to every situation. Which in my experience is standard old school play and always was bitd.
Quote from: Opaopajr;1118001Sounds like you know my pain. :o
:mad: And what really chaps my hide is how people complain about the Fighter being so boring -- and the (Schroediger's) Wizard oh so flexible! -- and they deliberately ignore one of the Fighter's main strengths: proficiency in all martial gear. All it takes is some prep, coinage, packaging, and encumbrance room to solve many a problem.
But did you have to be so callous to the poor wilting barbarian's player's feelings? These snowflakes are trying, trying oh so hard! :( Gentle mockery, and shared gluten-free snacks, that's the way. :p Like a nursing foal, you have to coax them to their feet before life's predators eat them. ;)
There is no such thing as a boring Fighter, but unfortunately sometimes Boring People, attempt to play a Fighter.:eek:
It's all too easy to say take a ranged weapon for the Fighter or melee types. First one has to make sure to be able to carry it and not be too heavily encumbered. In Pathfinder being too encumbered means moving much slower, AC penalties and skill penalties. Not sure if it is the same in earlier editions as it is years I played 1E and 2E. Second one hast hope the DM gives out enough treasure and access to such equipment. Third even with a ranged weapon the enemy has to be within bow range or not too far away or one receives range penalties.
Now if one lucks out and has a DM who does not track Encumbrance than one can be a walking armory. Otherwise depending on the Str of the character it's one weapon, possibly one ranged, armor and shield. Sorry but I'm not taking encumbrance penalties for anyone at the table. Thst is non-negotiable or up for debate.
Unfortunately at least in 3.5 then continued into PF they msde the martial/caster disparity even worse. With the right player and proper choice of spells one can do both ranged and melee damage.
It's all too easy to say to get a ranged weapon when one cannit carry too much equipment.
Also do the gaming equivalent of reading the room. If one games with experienced gamers and none besides you takes ranged weapons then they get what they deserve. If it's new players instead of being a pretentious, insulting asswipe. Instead maybe educate the new players to the hobby. My first game was anything but bringing a bow. It was taking the best armor and biggest weapon and charge at the enemy. As at the time I did not know better. Fortunately instead of having jerks who seem to think thry know better than everyone else. I was taught to bring a weapon and tactics and more
Quote from: SHARK;1117851Have any of you had dealings with poorly-equipped groups of adventurers?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Punish them of course. If they don't conform to my arbitrary level of pedantry, I make sure they know they fucked up. If they don't describe going to the bathroom every 6 hours I make sure their characters suffer. When they sleep, I ask them to describe to me the exact angle of sleep otherwise I penalize them with nightmares. You don't describe to me how you drink your flask? Roll for choking hazards.
Honestly, 10-foot poles come from a time when dungeons were mainly filled with insane troll logic meant to destroy players on mass. If the average person wants that nowadays they can play something like Cat Mario or I wanna be the Guy.
Honestly, I have nothing against the hyper preparatory. It's just its a very time-consuming thing for a ton of piddly annoyances.
Quote from: ElBorak;1118024There is no such thing as a boring Fighter, but unfortunately sometimes Boring People, attempt to play a Fighter.:eek:
https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1461/36/1461365206743.png (https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1461/36/1461365206743.png)
Seriously grognard game design is so much about preserving the babies' bathwater in jars and providing them equal importance to the baby.
Quote from: sureshot;1118027It's all too easy to say take a ranged weapon for the Fighter or melee types. First one has to make sure to be able to carry it and not be too heavily encumbered. In Pathfinder being too encumbered means moving much slower, AC penalties and skill penalties. Not sure if it is the same in earlier editions as it is years I played 1E and 2E. Second one hast hope the DM gives out enough treasure and access to such equipment. Third even with a ranged weapon the enemy has to be within bow range or not too far away or one receives range penalties.
Now if one lucks out and has a DM who does not track Encumbrance than one can be a walking armory. Otherwise depending on the Str of the character it's one weapon, possibly one ranged, armor and shield. Sorry but I'm not taking encumbrance penalties for anyone at the table. Thst is non-negotiable or up for debate.
Unfortunately at least in 3.5 then continued into PF they msde the martial/caster disparity even worse. With the right player and proper choice of spells one can do both ranged and melee damage.
It's all too easy to say to get a ranged weapon when one cannit carry too much equipment.
Also do the gaming equivalent of reading the room. If one games with experienced gamers and none besides you takes ranged weapons then they get what they deserve. If it's new players instead of being a pretentious, insulting asswipe. Instead maybe educate the new players to the hobby. My first game was anything but bringing a bow. It was taking the best armor and biggest weapon and charge at the enemy. As at the time I did not know better. Fortunately instead of having jerks who seem to think thry know better than everyone else. I was taught to bring a weapon and tactics and more
Yes, encumbrance and penalties for carrying too much has always been a thing. Keeping track of how much you are carrying is usually important in old-school play. But I'd rather be overencumbered than dead. And shooting with a range penalty is better than not being able to shoot at all.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118028Punish them of course. If they don't conform to my arbitrary level of pedantry, I make sure they know they fucked up. If they don't describe going to the bathroom every 6 hours I make sure their characters suffer. When they sleep, I ask them to describe to me the exact angle of sleep otherwise I penalize them with nightmares. You don't describe to me how you drink your flask? Roll for choking hazards.
Honestly, 10-foot poles come from a time when dungeons were mainly filled with insane troll logic meant to destroy players on mass. If the average person wants that nowadays they can play something like Cat Mario or I wanna be the Guy.
Honestly, I have nothing against the hyper preparatory. It's just its a very time-consuming thing for a ton of piddly annoyances.
Greetings!
Yeah, well, I don't know about arbitrary levels of pedantry, but the group I was adventuring with continued to suffer through the dungeon, and paid the price for lack of good judgement, planning, and being poorly equipped.
The group had no Rogue, amongst six or seven players, so the heavily trapped dungeon proceeded to punish the party ruthlessly. No 10-foot pole? Nope. No spears or Polearms, either. So the chewing and blood began. The Human Paladin, a Dwarf Cleric, and the Firbolg Barbarian groping their way blindly forward, being hammered and fucked every step of the way.
There was more than once where the Firbolg Barbarian's lack of a good ranged weapon cost the group potentially decisive gains. I asked the player, "Man, how could you not have gotten a good longbow? Your Firbolg Barbarian is 7'8"--he can practically fire a ballista by himself!" The Player just laughed and said he was being stupid and never thought of it.
Thankfully, over the next several sessions, the Firbolg did manage to get a hold of a Longbow and several quivers of arrows, which, combined with myself, now doubled our archery firepower, with immediate positive results. I encouraged the Firbolg player, and applauded him when his archery fire brought down fleeing enemies, or helped take out enemy spellcasters, and assisted in preventing enemies from escaping. It does get frustrating though when the group suffers, and can't accomplish A, or B, or C, because several players have been thoughtless and poorly equipped their characters.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118028Punish them of course. If they don't conform to my arbitrary level of pedantry, I make sure they know they fucked up. If they don't describe going to the bathroom every 6 hours I make sure their characters suffer. When they sleep, I ask them to describe to me the exact angle of sleep otherwise I penalize them with nightmares. You don't describe to me how you drink your flask? Roll for choking hazards.
Honestly, 10-foot poles come from a time when dungeons were mainly filled with insane troll logic meant to destroy players on mass. If the average person wants that nowadays they can play something like Cat Mario or I wanna be the Guy.
Honestly, I have nothing against the hyper preparatory. It's just its a very time-consuming thing for a ton of piddly annoyances.
I know that if I played under the DM that you described I doubt that we would ever get to the dungeon because of the level of detail that I would be describing for my character. By the time I finished with him he would never ask anyone else to describe the details of their characters bowel movements ever again. :p
Quote from: SHARK;1118032Greetings!
Yeah, well, I don't know about arbitrary levels of pedantry, but the group I was adventuring with continued to suffer through the dungeon, and paid the price for lack of good judgement, planning, and being poorly equipped.
The group had no Rogue, amongst six or seven players, so the heavily trapped dungeon proceeded to punish the party ruthlessly. No 10-foot pole? Nope. No spears or Polearms, either. So the chewing and blood began. The Human Paladin, a Dwarf Cleric, and the Firbolg Barbarian groping their way blindly forward, being hammered and fucked every step of the way.
There was more than once where the Firbolg Barbarian's lack of a good ranged weapon cost the group potentially decisive gains. I asked the player, "Man, how could you not have gotten a good longbow? Your Firbolg Barbarian is 7'8"--he can practically fire a ballista by himself!" The Player just laughed and said he was being stupid and never thought of it.
Thankfully, over the next several sessions, the Firbolg did manage to get a hold of a Longbow and several quivers of arrows, which, combined with myself, now doubled our archery firepower, with immediate positive results. I encouraged the Firbolg player, and applauded him when his archery fire brought down fleeing enemies, or helped take out enemy spellcasters, and assisted in preventing enemies from escaping. It does get frustrating though when the group suffers, and can't accomplish A, or B, or C, because several players have been thoughtless and poorly equipped their characters.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
So good-natured ball-busting and positive reinforcements produce results?
Whoda thunk it? :D
Quote from: SHARK;1118032Greetings!
Yeah, well, I don't know about arbitrary levels of pedantry, but the group I was adventuring with continued to suffer through the dungeon, and paid the price for lack of good judgement, planning, and being poorly equipped.
Did they prepare toilet paper? Increases the chances of disease!
The truth is that what counts as "Well Prepared" depends mostly on how pedantic the GM wants to be, and for that, there is no limit to said pedantry.
I always just saw 10 foot poles as the ultimate grognard item. Something that just requires your PCs to poke every inch and corner or be killed by an Animated wall, floor, ceiling, chest, staligmite, or some other ambush predator that existed purely as BS gotchas from a much more GM Vs Player hostile time.
Quote from: Shasarak;1118034I know that if I played under the DM that you described I doubt that we would ever get to the dungeon because of the level of detail that I would be describing for my character. By the time I finished with him he would never ask anyone else to describe the details of their characters bowel movements ever again. :p
You're not describing your character in-depth; your being well prepared, and Im rewarding or punishing you for said preparedness. ;)
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118044from a much more GM Vs Player hostile time.
As opposed to the current state of passive aggressive player vs. GM days of the present? Yeah, there are a lot of players that seem to think it is fun to fuck with the GM and the game in ways that only they find fun--and many current players will then cry when the GM responds with anything but acceptance of their stupidity. I think things like organized play encourage this bullshit.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118044Did they prepare toilet paper? Increases the chances of disease!
The truth is that what counts as "Well Prepared" depends mostly on how pedantic the GM wants to be, and for that, there is no limit to said pedantry.
I always just saw 10 foot poles as the ultimate grognard item. Something that just requires your PCs to poke every inch and corner or be killed by an Animated wall, floor, ceiling, chest, staligmite, or some other ambush predator that existed purely as BS gotchas from a much more GM Vs Player hostile time.
You're not describing your character in-depth; your being well prepared, and Im rewarding or punishing you for said preparedness. ;)
Greetings!
*Laughs* Ahh, I see, my friend. *Increases the chances of disease!* That made me laugh. Nice.:D
I have always tended to see the 10-foot pole as just another useful tool, amongst many other things adventurers bring with them into dungeons. I haven't seen it as some symbol of DM hostility towards players. That's too bad you've had such negative experiences, Shrieking Banshee.
I have always thought that dungeons and campaigns in general, should be dangerous, and challenging, though not personally hateful towards player characters or otherwise operating in an unfair manner.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1118046I have always thought that dungeons and campaigns in general, should be dangerous, and challenging, though not personally hateful towards player characters or otherwise operating in an unfair manner.
If they were not dangerous, other less intrepid people would have already been there and collected anything of value.
The bodies of those that have tried before can be found, showing some of the dangers they encountered.
Quote from: rawma;1117885The poke everything with a 10 foot pole convention is just silly; you waste a lot of time poking things, and if the GM wants to screw you because you didn't poke things then they're the sort of GM who will screw you anyway.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1117886By "screw you" I think you mean "allow you to screw yourself" because the DM doesn't make your choices for you.
I meant what I said.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1117914But as an OD&D GM, I'll eat a party that's equipped itself too.
Case in point. The only reason to do the 10-foot pole dance is so you can complain about what Spinachcat eventually did anyway, not because it's going to save you.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118028Punish them of course. If they don't conform to my arbitrary level of pedantry, I make sure they know they fucked up. If they don't describe going to the bathroom every 6 hours I make sure their characters suffer. When they sleep, I ask them to describe to me the exact angle of sleep otherwise I penalize them with nightmares. You don't describe to me how you drink your flask? Roll for choking hazards.
Honestly, 10-foot poles come from a time when dungeons were mainly filled with insane troll logic meant to destroy players on mass. If the average person wants that nowadays they can play something like Cat Mario or I wanna be the Guy.
Honestly, I have nothing against the hyper preparatory. It's just its a very time-consuming thing for a ton of piddly annoyances.
Quoted for truth.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118044I always just saw 10 foot poles as the ultimate grognard item. Something that just requires your PCs to poke every inch and corner or be killed by an Animated wall, floor, ceiling, chest, staligmite, or some other ambush predator that existed purely as BS gotchas from a much more GM Vs Player hostile time.
So this got me thinking... obviously there's balance here, but on the other hand, think of the Indiana Jones movies. Some of the most iconic scenes are Indy dealing with traps. And part of the reward of gaming is the risk of loss to get to the reward -- no risk, and the reward is not so sweet. Encountering only embodiments of risk/opposition (e.g. monsters) is leaving some of the interesting exploration off the table -- even in real life, sometimes the environment is just set against you, though usually not to the active degree of a trap. Unless you're trying to rob a bank.
Anyway, assholes can be GMs just like assholes can wear any role's hat. But banks invest in security, so why wouldn't someone storing a treasure for their future life, or for their afterlife, or for the worthy hero promised in a prophecy also secure their treasure? And for the player, is the reward of a treasure meaningful without there being risk in obtaining it?
I guess to sum it up, any risk mechanism can be taken to excess. But that kind of everpresent player v. environment paranoia is not necessarily a bad thing, IMHO -- and not necessarily the mark of a hostile GM, either. And worrying about it being so and so reducing or omitting traps is missing out on a lot of iconic fun, I think.
Yes I've seen a fair number of poorly equipped adventurers. Some players like figuring out what equipment to carry and then finding a way to use it. A very few like it a lot. Most don't like it much or at all.
I've noticed that in D&D 5E the magic using PCs can sometimes use cantrips to create some stuff they need on the fly, so not a lot of encouragement to spend effort listing equipment. And Mage Hand works as a 30' long pole.
Recently I spent some time equipping my low-level, low-STR thief and keeping encumbrance below the 5xSTR optional limit. After a handful of adventures I've successfully used my 1 pound bag of flour twice. Once I used sleight of hand to swap it for a huge gem (kind of like Indy at the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark) and once conning some NPC into thinking it was a valuable poison or potion or some such.
Quote from: SHARK;1118046I have always thought that dungeons and campaigns in general, should be dangerous, and challenging, though not personally hateful towards player characters or otherwise operating in an unfair manner.
Im not saying they shouldn't be, but dungeons generally don't make "sense" the kinds of traps they have are not "Realistic". Now I find realism to be overrated but what that means is that its challenge is largely what the GM wants at the time.
A realistic dungeon of treasure is more protected by simply being hidden behind 20 feet of stone then by elaborate hard to maintain traps and monsters. Ergo a "D&D Dungeon" mainly exists to be fun.
And I guess I wouldn't say playing minesweeper with the GM is fun for me.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1118045As opposed to the current state of passive aggressive player vs. GM days of the present? Yeah, there are a lot of players that seem to think it is fun to fuck with the GM and the game in ways that only they find fun--and many current players will then cry when the GM responds with anything but acceptance of their stupidity. I think things like organized play encourage this bullshit.
Not saying the reverse is good, I was just commenting on what I dislike.
Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1118073So this got me thinking... obviously there's balance here, but on the other hand, think of the Indiana Jones movies. Some of the most iconic scenes are Indy dealing with traps.
Remember when Indie spent 3 hours combing every square inch with a 10 foot pole? I try to aim for Indiana Jones style traps as well, but they ain't nothing like AD&D traps.
Quote from: SHARK;1117851Greetings!
I have noticed a curious trend amongst groups of players recently. In these Adventurer League groups, no one seems to believe in being properly equipped for expeditions into the Unknown, especially dungeons.
"Do you all have a 10' Pole?" Blank stares.
"How about flasks of oil?" "Um..."
"Anyone have some iron spikes?" Chirp, chirp, chirp.
I'm just always boggled at how poorly equipped many of the adventurers are. But they have an embroidered handkerchief! Or a fine bottle of wine, or a mirror carved with happy kitties on it.
There has been several occasions when the group has encountered creatures in the dungeon where we could have gained significant advantage against them--but no one had the right equipment. My own extra gear being swiftly used up in earlier encounters, or of insufficient quantity for the plan. Still, it would have been very helpful and advantageous if other members of the group had been well-equipped for the expedition!
Have any of you had dealings with poorly-equipped groups of adventurers?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Since my player-characters are almost never professional adventurers and mostly adventures come to us unsought, we are often poorly equipped. I can't remember the last time we knew that we were going to a dungeon. When I GM, it is often much the same.
Honestly, when I started playing back in the 70s, we just thought the 10' pole was nothing but a silly joke (as in, "I wouldn't touch that with a dot dot dot"). The thought of actually bringing such an awkward object into the confines of the underworld just seemed ludicrous.
Now, that said, in one early session one player did insist on buying and bringing one, just for a lark. Sure enough, we had some slapstick fun with that, and for a little while it was fun, with him constantly bringing up short on walls and ceilings, poking people's eyes out etc but in short order the joke had run its course and the 10' pole never appeared again.
A pair of 10 ft. poles (along with tent materials or similar) can form a stretcher for carrying dead/badly injured companions or simply lots of treasure and gear in a manner that is easy to set down quickly if/when necessary (e.g., sudden danger).
Quote from: HappyDaze;1118094A pair of 10 ft. poles (along with tent materials or similar) can form a stretcher for carrying dead/badly injured companions or simply lots of treasure and gear in a manner that is easy to set down quickly if/when necessary (e.g., sudden danger).
A pair of 10' poles *can* be used for that, and in a pinch sure, but by choice? I've done wilderness first aid, including making and using expedient stretchers, and there are reasons stretcher poles aren't made that long. A pair of 8' poles will do the same job and be less awkward in twisty or confined spaces. They are also less likely to sag and snap than 10' lengths, given that you want the slenderest poles possible, not thick merchantable timber.
As someone else suggested, a spear of shorter length will do much the same job as a 10' pole but with less awkwardness in confined spaces, and other added functions.
That said, yes, if you happen to be rich in 10' poles, then by all means use them.... while too long for a stretcher and a bit short for a travois, they are potentially doable. Not utterly useless, but I wouldn't consider the 10' pole to be essential equipment, or even very desirable.
Anyway, leaving aside the merits of 8' vs 10' poles, I still got the impression the "10' pole" in D&D was always just a joke.
Greetings!
I have also seen adventurer groups enter into the dungeons and be poorly-equipped in general, regardless of personal feelings about 10-foot poles. Groups have quickly run out of food and water, as well as flasks of oil, and torches. A healer ran out of healing kits. When we did have more than one character with a ranged weapon--besides myself, the Firbolg Barbarian didn't bring enough arrows. Another character had a crossbow, but only had twenty bolts, and soon ran out of such ammunition.
It took quite some work to teach some people not to rely on spell-casters to somehow do everything for you at the snap of a finger, or to fully grasp the idea that somehow, the world might make demands beyond what they expected in a Disney film.
Once the group began to understand the need and great benefits of being well-equipped, having several kinds of weapons, having ranged weapons, a good supply of ammunition; being well-stocked in healing kits, herbs, salves, bandages, and good supplies of iron rations and water; other equipment such as spikes, rope, torches, oil, shovels, hammers and crowbars; Well, then it was a whole other issue of getting them trained into formations, battle routines and tactics, and staying focused on pursuing the mission instead of playing grab-ass for much of the time.
Far too much time was wasted on playing grab-ass, and moderating petty arguments between various members of the group over actions, direction or strategy in the dungeon, but also stupid arguments over how uber their particular class was, or their special class pathway, or otherwise how much of a special snowflake their backgrounds made them.
That has also been a long, slow, and frustrating process with the Adventurer's League groups.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Zirunel;1118096A pair of 10' poles *can* be used for that, and in a pinch sure, but by choice? I've done wilderness first aid, including making and using expedient stretchers, and there are reasons stretcher poles aren't made that long. A pair of 8' poles will do the same job and be less awkward in twisty or confined spaces. They are also less likely to sag and snap than 10' lengths, given that you want the slenderest poles possible, not thick merchantable timber.
As someone else suggested, a spear of shorter length will do much the same job as a 10' pole but with less awkwardness in confined spaces, and other added functions.
That said, yes, if you happen to be rich in 10' poles, then by all means use them.... while too long for a stretcher and a bit short for a travois, they are potentially doable. Not utterly useless, but I wouldn't consider the 10' pole to be essential equipment, or even very desirable.
Anyway, leaving aside the merits of 8' vs 10' poles, I still got the impression the "10' pole" in D&D was always just a joke.
The 10' pole is not inherently more likely to sag or snap than an 8' pole because you don't have to grip it by the very ends of the poles. I can't believe I have to point this out.
However, if your equipment lists have the option of 8' and 10' poles then I guess it might come up, but I have never seen that.
Quote from: SHARK;1118098Greetings!
I have also seen adventurer groups enter into the dungeons and be poorly-equipped in general, regardless of personal feelings about 10-foot poles. Groups have quickly run out of food and water, as well as flasks of oil, and torches. A healer ran out of healing kits. When we did have more than one character with a ranged weapon--besides myself, the Firbolg Barbarian didn't bring enough arrows. Another character had a crossbow, but only had twenty bolts, and soon ran out of such ammunition.
Did you make it clear that you're a DM that keeps track of these things in detail? And you were looking for an ultra survivalist experience?
As I pointed out, what is "Being just logically prepared" and what is "The GM just applying arbitrary standards of what he wants to be tracking"
is completely 100% in your head alone.And you where punishing players for not being in your headspace.
That's not clever or a fault of the players. You're not being clever for punishing them for not informing them about the experience you wanted as a GM.
My GMing career actually began following the pundits advice from his blogs, and the end result where a bunch of miserable players (And me as well in the end) and allot of yelling.
Since then I have always made it clear what I wanted and understood they are MY preferences and try to make them co-exist with what my players want from the game as well, as well as picking for players that want similar things to me.
Greetings!
It has been fun watching the Firbolg Barbarian and the Human Paladin charge forward into the archways and hallways, setting off the traps. Getting pin-cushioned by crossbow bolts, dropped into steep pits full of long, sharp spikes; tripping wires where swinging claws sweep down to shred them. Sprays of poison gas, or toxic spores causing them to change colour and roll on the ground, hacking and convulsing. And none of them have a 10-foot pole! *Laughs*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118104Did you make it clear that you're a DM that keeps track of these things in detail? And you were looking for an ultra survivalist experience?
As I pointed out, what is "Being just logically prepared" and what is "The GM just applying arbitrary standards of what he wants to be tracking" is completely 100% in your head alone.
And you where punishing players for not being in your headspace.
That's not clever or a fault of the players. You're not being clever for punishing them for not informing them about the experience you wanted as a GM.
My GMing career actually began following the pundits advice from his blogs, and the end result where a bunch of miserable players (And me as well in the end) and allot of yelling.
Since then I have always made it clear what I wanted and understood they are MY preferences and try to make them co-exist with what my players want from the game as well, as well as picking for players that want similar things to me.
Greetings!
*smiles* No, my friend. I have been a *player* in these particular Adventurer League campaigns, not the DM. I have had to watch many other players in several groups flounder about and suffer and struggle through various adventures. Oftentimes not well-equipped. I, personally, have wanted the expeditions to be united, disciplined, focused, and progressive, making gains, being successful every week, both individually and within the larger group picture. It has instead been more like trying to nail jello to the wall. Numerous deaths, lots of aimless struggle and petty squabbling and ego-stroking between individual group members, and only an often seemingly accidental process of teamwork with shaky loyalty at best from many party members.:D
Your GMing career began following Pundits advice? You had a bunch of miserable players? That's interesting, my friend! What happened along that journey?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1118106Greetings!
*smiles* No, my friend. I have been a *player* in these particular Adventurer League campaigns, not the DM.
Sorry for being bitter then. I'm bitter at that GM now.
QuoteYour GMing career began following Pundits advice? You had a bunch of miserable players? That's interesting, my friend! What happened along that journey?
His "Truths" didn't end up being as universal as he insisted they where. I like the pundit, and he does have good tips at times, but so many things he insists are "Objective ways the game should be played or are objectively good examples of game design" are just his over-inflated opinion of himself.
Quote from: SHARK;1118105Greetings!
It has been fun watching the Firbolg Barbarian and the Human Paladin charge forward into the archways and hallways, setting off the traps. Getting pin-cushioned by crossbow bolts, dropped into steep pits full of long, sharp spikes; tripping wires where swinging claws sweep down to shred them. Sprays of poison gas, or toxic spores causing them to change colour and roll on the ground, hacking and convulsing. And none of them have a 10-foot pole! *Laughs*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
And because it's 5e, one Long Rest later and they're perfectly fine and ready to do it all over again. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118029https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1461/36/1461365206743.png (https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1461/36/1461365206743.png)
Seriously grognard game design is so much about preserving the babies' bathwater in jars and providing them equal importance to the baby.
Wow, Shrieking Banshee, I knew that 5E seriously limited player agency compared to OD&D and horribly Nerfed the non-spell casters, but I didn't know it was that bad, thanks for the warning about 5E.:rolleyes:
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118044I always just saw 10 foot poles as the ultimate grognard item. Something that just requires your PCs to poke every inch and corner or be killed by an Animated wall, floor, ceiling, chest, staligmite, or some other ambush predator that existed purely as BS gotchas from a much more GM Vs Player hostile time.
Hmm, I don't know who you've played with, but I never encountered a hostile DM vs hostile player environment in any game that I have ever been in both as a DM and as a player. I can see how never having had the chance to play in a normal old school game would warp you view of old school games.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1118045As opposed to the current state of passive aggressive player vs. GM days of the present? Yeah, there are a lot of players that seem to think it is fun to fuck with the GM and the game in ways that only they find fun--and many current players will then cry when the GM responds with anything but acceptance of their stupidity. I think things like organized play encourage this bullshit.
No one needs those kind of players, if they can't drop it and insist on being assholes, there's the door. Don't let it hit you on the way out.
Quote from: rawma;1118071Case in point. The only reason to do the 10-foot pole dance is so you can complain about what Spinachcat eventually did anyway, not because it's going to save you.
You have my deepest sympathy, here is a blanket and a comfort dog. Oh and a box of chocolates, I hear they are good for soothing hurt feelings.
Quote from: Zirunel;1118096Anyway, leaving aside the merits of 8' vs 10' poles, I still got the impression the "10' pole" in D&D was always just a joke.
The guys (and gals) I played with always found spears to be way more useful in a dungeon.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118104My GMing career actually began following the pundits advice from his blogs, and the end result where a bunch of miserable players (And me as well in the end) and allot of yelling.
I will have to take a look at The Pundits blog and see if that is logical. What year did you start reading the blog? I just want to have an idea of where to start looking for this advice that supposedly caused "a bunch of miserable players."
Quote from: ElBorak;1118128Hmm, I don't know who you've played with, but I never encountered a hostile DM vs hostile player environment in any game that I have ever been in both as a DM and as a player. I can see how never having had the chance to play in a normal old school game would warp you view of old school games.
If you have never encountered it, it must therefore never have existed.
Quote from: ElBorak;1118127Wow, Shrieking Banshee, I knew that 5E seriously limited player agency compared to OD&D and horribly Nerfed the non-spell casters, but I didn't know it was that bad, thanks for the warning about 5E.:rolleyes:
Grognards would rather EAT a baby then admit any wrongdoings of OD&D. Like if your like that Im not even gonna bother. I won't waste my time arguing with a brick wall.
We have never brought along 10' polls because so many of our characters carry spears. However, the 10' poll concept does come into play when we go indoors or underground, where a spear might be a poor choice in a fight. One or two guys usually lug a spear along anyway, because there are other, rare, uses for a long pole.
Quote from: Blankman;1118030Yes, encumbrance and penalties for carrying too much has always been a thing. Keeping track of how much you are carrying is usually important in old-school play. But I'd rather be overencumbered than dead. And shooting with a range penalty is better than not being able to shoot at all.
Go right ahead because if the party is running away from the enemy then your going to be left behind. If player XYZ wants to load themselves down and move like a snail my and the other player characters are not going to suffer for it. If the player insists on being a liability both going into and out of combat they suffer the consequences of their poor tactical choices. As for range penalties hope you have high bonuses to hit as at least in PF every 10 feat past the range increment is a -2 cumulative penalty. Daggers can be thrown 10 feet so throwing one 25 feat means a -4.
Quote from: RandyB;1118035So good-natured ball-busting and positive reinforcements produce results?
Whoda thunk it? :D
Yes and no and more importantly the gaming equivalent of reading the room must be taken into account. If the player is getting angry continuing with the good natured ball busting may not be the smartest thing to do or to be done at the end of the game. Not everyone likes to be told (especially today) if they are making mistakes or created a bad character. Most people can take advice as long as the DM or player is not being a jerk. If your going to be an asshole and you picked the wrong player or DM to act like that towards. Well if they come out swinging I'm going to break up the fight yet take my time doing so.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118044Did they prepare toilet paper? Increases the chances of disease!
The truth is that what counts as "Well Prepared" depends mostly on how pedantic the GM wants to be, and for that, there is no limit to said pedantry.
I always just saw 10 foot poles as the ultimate grognard item. Something that just requires your PCs to poke every inch and corner or be killed by an Animated wall, floor, ceiling, chest, staligmite, or some other ambush predator that existed purely as BS gotchas from a much more GM Vs Player hostile time.
Seconded.
Too many Dms forger we are playing D&D and not the latest sequal to the SAW franchise. At the same time adventuring is a dangerous business and any player who whines everytime their character receives one point of damage is not welcome at my table either
The rarely seen sextuple post. Holy forum courtesy fail, Batman. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118144Grognards would rather EAT a baby then admit any wrongdoings of OD&D.
Not true. I started in '78, so a grognard, and I'll freely admit that the Greyhawk supplement was a huge wrongdoing. :cool:
Many bits of gear are, or ought to be on auto-pilot, like 10' poles, torches/lanterns, and others. One sentence covers their use for the entire game, and every game thereafter, unless the DM is an anal retentive POS. If you don't bring one, well, improvise or maybe suffer for it, or not.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118144If you have never encountered it, it must therefore never have existed.
I didn't say it doesn't exist, I just said I never encountered. But be sure of this, if I had I would have been smart enough to walk away and find or start another game instead of whining about a bad DM years later and stupidly assuming that all DMs are like that and using my delusional assumptions to color all my comments.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118144Grognards would rather EAT a baby then admit any wrongdoings of OD&D. Like if your like that Im not even gonna bother. I won't waste my time arguing with a brick wall.
Grognards leave the baby killing and baby eating to the SJW liberal leftists. Killing babies is something they are good at. Playing D&D not so much. But whining, you folk are great at whining.
Oh BTW saying that fighters are limited and boring compared to other classes is about incompetent as is possible for a D&D player to be.
It's interesting to consider that old school play is usually considered to have competent characters by default. The idea that it is absurd to have a "rope use" skill as any adventurer worth his salt would know how to use a rope. The same with survival skills, etc. The current mentality is that if it wasn't on your sheet you can't do it. Sorry, no use rope skill, you fail.
When it comes to equipment however it seems to be reversed. The old school way assumes that characters are competent but not when it comes to preparation. You didn't buy that 10' pole or spikes? Guess you're screwed. Wouldn't any adventurer worth his salt however think about having those things? The current mentality is reversed on equipment with nebulous adventuring packs. I think OD&D could work with nebulous adventuring packs as it would still require the player to think about what tool to use when without the "gotcha" effect. How you balance that with the resource management aspect of OD&D play would need work however.
Quote from: ElBorak;1118187Grognards leave the baby killing and baby eating to the SJW liberal leftists. Killing babies is something they are good at. Playing D&D not so much. But whining, you folk are great at whining.
...you really need to just stop responding to people who use idioms, or something. Because all you manage to do is embarrass yourself, and somehow assume that everyone who uses one at you is left of your politics.
QuoteOh BTW saying that fighters are limited and boring compared to other classes is about incompetent as is possible for a D&D player to be.
Once you get to the point where adventures are in fantastical places, the fighter is fucked, full stop.
Underwater adventure in a sunken ship at the bottom of the ocean: how does the fighter get there? Does he hold his breath the entire time? Meanwhile the cleric is casting
water breathing and the druid turns into a dolphin.
Princess was captured by giants who took her to their castle in the clouds: how does the fighter get there? Flap his arms a whole lot? The ranger uses his animal friendship powers to get a hippogryph buddy and the monk can walk on clouds.
Fighters absolutely are limited, and that's the problem. In terms of D&D progression, the
character concept of "dude who is good with swords" keeps until maybe like 5th level or so, and then it tanks. Pretty much every other character class in the game has ways of getting outside assistance or supernatural power that lets them do crazy - dare I say
heroic - things. Meanwhile the fighter gets... better at swording things to death?
The concept is just too narrow and has too short of a shelf-life for D&D. Now if you don't go past 5th level or all your adventures are of the variety that can be solved by "has thumbs," then sure, fighters are great.
John McClane is a fighter. Inventive, determined, hardcore, good in a fight. All that jazz. And for the kinds of threats that a vanilla action hero faces, he's definitely a dude you could bring along. But if you're going to go fight aboleths at the bottom of the ocean along with their sahuagin minions? He either needs to be kitted out in some hardcore equipment (which is at the whim of the DM, mind, not something he inherently has), or the character can't even
participate, he can't even get to where the adventure
is.
And rogues have the same problem.
Quote from: GnomeWorks;1118193...you really need to just stop responding to people who use idioms, or something. Because all you manage to do is embarrass yourself, and somehow assume that everyone who uses one at you is left of your politics.
And you need to stop trying to make excuses. Calling someone a baby eater is not an idiom, it is a vile insult. Extremely vile.
Quote from: GnomeWorks;1118193Once you get to the point where adventures are in fantastical places, the fighter is fucked, full stop.
Underwater adventure in a sunken ship at the bottom of the ocean: how does the fighter get there? Does he hold his breath the entire time? Meanwhile the cleric is casting water breathing and the druid turns into a dolphin.
Wow, just wow! Have your ever played D&D? It doesn't seem like you have or you must have played in the lamest games ever.
The fighter puts on his ring of water breathing and it lasts longer than the clerics spell too. Or he could put on a polymorph ring and turn into a an appropriate sea creature whether a dolphin or something more deadly. Same for all of these, fighters get to use magic items the same as anyone else. Besides which depending on how deep your bottom of the ocean is that spell could wear off before the cleric even gets to the bottom. Just because the spell users have spells doesn't mean they are automatically a leg up on the other characters.
Quote from: ElBorak;1118207And you need to stop trying to make excuses. Calling someone a baby eater is not an idiom, it is a vile insult. Extremely vile.
You're excessively literal. No one other than you thought the person was saying you literally eat babies (but I do... Veal is delicious :D)
I'm as right wing as they come and even I can understand that the person was merely expanding on the idiom previously used. Since you are excessively literal I will explain it to you.
It started with the elaboration of the idiom "don't throw the baby out with the bath water" meaning "don't throw out the good with the bad."
It was first used here with the elaboration of "grognards like to bottle up the bath water and give it as much love as the baby" meaning, in the poster's opinion, grognards focused just as much on preserving the bad elements of old-school gaming as the good parts.
Finally, it was claimed that some grognards are prone to "eating the baby" meaning they don't just keep the bad stuff, they're prone to killing what's actually enjoyable about playing RPGs.
So, again, for your overly literal brain... the claim is that grognards often give as much love and care to promoting bad and unfun parts of old-school gaming (that were endured to have the good parts) and some outright kill the parts in the name of perserving the bad parts because "tradition."
QuoteWow, just wow! Have your ever played D&D? It doesn't seem like you have or you must have played in the lamest games ever.
The fighter puts on his ring of water breathing and it lasts longer than the clerics spell too. Or he could put on a polymorph ring and turn into a an appropriate sea creature whether a dolphin or something more deadly. Same for all of these, fighters get to use magic items the same as anyone else. Besides which depending on how deep your bottom of the ocean is that spell could wear off before the cleric even gets to the bottom. Just because the spell users have spells doesn't mean they are automatically a leg up on the other characters.
And where did he GET the ring of water-breathing? The GM gave it to him.
Or rather gave it to the party who decided the fighter gets the ring as his share of the loot. Meanwhile the druid and cleric get equal shares, including their own magic items.
I will say, at least in old-school games where all the rules get followed the magic user is more equal; tracking every component, declared actions in reverse initiative order with casting times being ruthlessly enforced and disrupted by even a single point of damage, randomly rolling for all spells known and later found, etc.
The thing is I've NEVER played with an old-school DM who didn't handwave one or more of the limiters on old-school casting to make it more fun for those players, but gives NOTHING to the fighters.
In short... this may have already been posted here, but it's worth repeating... it says for 5e, but it applies to pretty much every edition;
https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1461/36/1461365206743.png (https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1461/36/1461365206743.png)
Quote from: Chris24601;1118230The thing is I've NEVER played with an old-school DM who didn't handwave one or more of the limiters on old-school casting to make it more fun for those players, but gives NOTHING to the fighters.
I think some of it had to do with how the DM learned the game. If you learned it as a player from another DM, you tended to at least start with doing things more or less the way you had seen it. In my case, I learned it from the books and a lot of trial and error. We didn't handwave
anything.
The interesting aspect of that was that it took me a long time to understand the idea that "No one wants to play the cleric." In our games, it was instead, "No one wants to play the wizard." It got so bad that for some time we had a house rule that the player that rolled the highest Int must play the wizard. When we switched from 3d6 in order to 4d6, drop lowest, but still in order--one player got an 18 Str and an 18 Int on the same character. The party loved that guy. He still only had one spell and lousy hit points, but he could hit, do some damage, and most important--carry stuff in and out of the dungeon. :)
Well yes, of course I've had under-prepared players. Quite commonly as a matter of fact. However in equal amounts I have hoarder players who will quite literally knock hobos unconscious to steal their fingerless gloves, paperclips and pocket lint in addition to anything of actual utility. In my most recent campaign I recall one player insisting on breaking into the trunk of a stolen cab (which I randomly rolled on the contents of); it turned out to be some cleaning supplies, a stack of old newspapers and a bag of what by all accounts was dirty laundry. Not only did the player nearly give himself a hemorrhage trying to figure out how to actually loot all the crap, he also grew greatly suspicious of the cabby he had stolen the car from and became intent on finding him again for interrogation. That player was a bit of an odd one, but sometimes people do find ingenious uses for the oddest things that aren't of any utility in the normal sense. In this particular case, he ended up mixing some of the cleaning chemicals together to gas a tunnel full of gang members. :eek:
Another example would be my brother, who spent more time creating his custom holdout/reinforced/waterproofed/ruggedized/hidden compartment carrying sack than his actual character (and he spent all his starting wealth on that, and that alone)...
On the larger topic at hand of how to handle gear, I don't really like hand-waving things much. I see more players get attached to the random oddities in their inventory than not. Occasionally I will go "ok, sure, you have a quarter in your pocket with a couple other pieces of loose change" in a modern game for instance where the character has been out and about or whatever; very minor things like that. Similarly, if the character has a decent starting wealth and a job to make a wage I would say "OK, yes, you have an apartment and within it is a washer and dryer and yes you probably have a gallon of milk in the fridge" or whatever is appropriate. Similarly, I would expect the average kitchen to have a knife or several around unless there is a good reason for it not to; in the same way I expect an adventurer's first aid kit to have some gauze.
Generally though I expect what someone is actually carrying/adventuring with is listed on the sheet, particularly for medieval fantasy-type games where it is not infeasible that everything a PC owns might be carried on their back or mule or similar. If it is a pulp genre or something where that sort of thing isn't really as important, I prefer not to "handwave" things but rather to use an actual abstract wealth mechanic. Basically, the rules should cover your ass one way or the other regardless of what method you use, and not rely on the sometimes fickle nature of GM fiat. That's just my preference though. :)
Quote from: ElBorak;1118207Wow, just wow! Have your ever played D&D? It doesn't seem like you have or you must have played in the lamest games ever.
You have zero evidence of that, and given that I am more aware of this problem than you, no, I compensate for it appropriately. Because I have to. Because D&D has always had this problem.
You fucking twit.
QuoteThe fighter puts on his ring of water breathing and it lasts longer than the clerics spell too. Or he could put on a polymorph ring and turn into a an appropriate sea creature whether a dolphin or something more deadly. Same for all of these, fighters get to use magic items the same as anyone else. Besides which depending on how deep your bottom of the ocean is that spell could wear off before the cleric even gets to the bottom. Just because the spell users have spells doesn't mean they are automatically a leg up on the other characters.
Ring of water breathing, really? And what level do they get that, exactly? Hasn't been in any fighter progressions I've seen.
Oh, and a ring of polymorph! Wow, this fighter is loaded for bear, tell ya what, with all these magical doodads. What brilliant game designer gave them all these cool toys so that they could participate like a real character?
What's that, you say? The GM gave them to the party? You mean the same dickbag who will give you a crock of shit for not packing a 10-foot-pole?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
Fighters do lose a bit of shine in higher level play (when MUs really come into their own), but I haven't experienced a big problem with it. One thing that helps is their ability to make a number of attacks equal to their level when fighting "normal men" (0-level types) and "normal men"-type monsters (1HD or less in original D&D, <1HD in AD&D). So a 10th level Lord fighting goblins or regular soldiers makes ten attacks per round: he's a morale-shattering force of nature on the battlefield. And name level fighters tend to have more/better followers and freeholds than many other classes.
I think single-classed thieves lose out at higher levels way more than fighters do. But I avoid playing single-classed thieves, in any case, and recommend that players choose thief as part of a multi-class combination.
Quote from: Chris24601;1118230meaning, in the poster's opinion, grognards focused just as much on preserving the bad elements of old-school gaming as the good parts.
Hmm, yeah, that mistake is often made by those who do not fully understand old school gaming.
Quote from: Chris24601;1118230meaning they don't just keep the bad stuff, they're prone to killing what's actually enjoyable about playing RPGs.
Another common error made by the ignorant, who themselves are guilty of what they accuse old school gamers of.
Quote from: Chris24601;1118230I will say, at least in old-school games where all the rules get followed the magic user is more equal; tracking every component, declared actions in reverse initiative order with casting times being ruthlessly enforced and disrupted by even a single point of damage, randomly rolling for all spells known and later found, etc.
OD&D dosen't have time wasters like spell components and balance is not some god to be worshiped contrary to new school ideology. You are talking about rigid BTB 1st & 2nd ED AD&D, I don't know anybody that wastes enough gaming time to do that.
Quote from: Chris24601;1118230The thing is I've NEVER played with an old-school DM who didn't handwave one or more of the limiters on old-school casting to make it more fun for those players, but gives NOTHING to the fighters.
You should have a chance to play in a game where that it is not true that "but gives NOTHING to the fighters." Sorry you have only played with alleged "old-school DMs" who "but gives NOTHING to the fighters."
And that Venn diagram does not even live in the same universe as old school gaming and OD&D in particular, at least not with a competent DM and imaginative players.
Quote from: GnomeWorks;1118291You have zero evidence of that,
Just every post you made and everything you have said in those posts, pretty compelling evidence really.
Quote from: GnomeWorks;1118291Because I have to. Because D&D has always had this problem.
If we were friends I would grieve for your stubborn ignorance, but as it is, it is completely your problem, but if you ever want help with that just go back, read and pay attention.
Quote from: GnomeWorks;1118291You fucking twit.
You say things like that a lot, are you sitting in front of a mirror talking to yourself?
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1118325So a 10th level Lord fighting goblins or regular soldiers makes ten attacks per round: he's a morale-shattering force of nature on the battlefield. And name level fighters tend to have more/better followers and freeholds than many other classes.
Am I wrong in thinking that Fighters get followers? So, when you say "Fighter" you actually mean them and their squad?
---
The rules for followers were found in the AD&D Dungeon Master Guide, pg.16.
Dragon #99 – Tables and Tables of Troops (Fighters)
Later editions say 3E of D&D later just hurt the Fighter imo. At least in earlier edition they were the best at hitting and killing stuff while also having interesting options like being able to get a keep at a certain level. 3.5. then Pathfinder made it so that everything required a feat. Fighter Xyz wants to trip someone it can be done yet it requires two feats. One to trip someone and another to make sure no attacks of opportunity occur. The Fighter class at least for PF is a major letdown at least in 1E. Nothing really stands out and some like Bravery are a joke. I began making one for an upcoming campaign, stopped and switched over to a Barbarian. I may get less feats and slightly less to hit chances. Yet I can do as much if not more damage and get some interesting class abilites to boot.
If the only defence for the Fighter class beyond being able to hit and do damage is that they can compete with other caster classes at high level because they can get magic items is not really much of a defence at all. First off the other caster classes can get the same magic items and build them. If the items get stolen most players can compensate with spells. Tghe player with the Fighter class is pretty screwed.
Anyway 3, 2, 1, expecting to be told I can't play Fighter or never played D&D or some other stupid nonsense because one dare to criticize a favored class or D&D.
If the rule system screws a specific profession, maybe there is something wrong with the rules?
One nice thing about "Beyond the Wall" is how magic works. Powerful magic takes TIME and can be interrupted.
It is still powerful but it is more balanced (IMO).
Most magic systems require the magic user to rest to get their spells back. Do they also the Fighter to rest for extended periods?
Quote from: Greentongue;1118384Most magic systems require the magic user to rest to get their spells back. Do they also the Fighter to rest for extended periods?
Many systems (every one I've ever read) require rest to recover from damage or fatigue. Absent some form of magical healing that rest period can extend to weeks or even months in some game systems. Take a bunch of damage in a game of Pendragon or Call of Cthulhu and your character is spending days or even longer healing up.
My point was that Fighters should be able to continue long after a magic user has been drained. So, where endurance is required, a Fighter has the advantage.
It is up to the GM to take that into account.
Quote from: Greentongue;1118371Am I wrong in thinking that Fighters get followers?
Fighters get followers at name level (as do most other classes, but fighters tend to get more -- and arguably better -- followers). That's separate from henchmen and hirelings, which can potentially be recruited by any PC at any level.
QuoteSo, when you say "Fighter" you actually mean them and their squad?
Possibly, but not necessarily. I'm looking at the classes (and their class-related resources and roles) as a whole within the campaign, not necessarily considering a single encounter or combat. At high levels, Fighters tend to have freeholds or domains of some sort, and are important in that respect. And they tend to have a lot of good quality followers (as well as henchmen, et cetera). That is, in my experience, they still have a lot of importance in high level play. They tend to be "movers and shakers" in the campaign world.
That said, if a campaign approaches higher level play exactly like low-level play, just with tougher/scaled-up obstacles, then I could definitely understand complaints about fighters being relatively weaker at those levels. The fighters freehold/followers/influence-in-the-setting/etc wouldn't matter as much, and if the fighter is only encountering "high level" monsters that are "level appropriate" then it makes things like his many attacks per round (i.e., equal to his level) against "normal enemies" pretty useless in play.
So, again it is how the rules are being adjudicated or ignored that is in effect weakening the Fighter in respect to magic using characters?
Quote from: Greentongue;1118400So, again it is how the rules are being adjudicated or ignored that is in effect weakening the Fighter in respect to magic using characters?
Depends on the system. You're making a lot of presumptions that everyone here is playing TSR-era D&D (or retroclones thereof) when there are multiple editions of D&D and other systems entirely where presumptions of character benefits like a fighter's name-level followers simply aren't present.
Quote from: Greentongue;1118400So, again it is how the rules are being adjudicated or ignored that is in effect weakening the Fighter in respect to magic using characters?
I don't think it's any one thing, and I'm sure it varies from table to table. Some of it is the actual difference in the way Fighters and MUs (especially) scale up in individual power as levels advance. Some of it may be the way the game is approached by a given group (i.e., not focusing on things where the Fighter's benefits at higher levels shine). And if we start talking about differences in editions, well, all bets are off because of the variables involved.
I figure the DM for a given campaign knows his game and how he runs it or approaches it. Some DMs may want to tweak the rules or give fighters more power/benefits. Others may find the rules as written work fine. Personally, I find that the rules I use work fine, at least for the way I approach and run the game. YMMV, of course.
My personal experience of mid to high level AD&D (up to about 9th level) is that, as far as combat goes, the magic users generally hang back and watch the fighters doing their thing, saving their spells for critical junctures or when things get desperate. You don't waste spells on enemies that can be cleaned up without them.
Fighters are constantly involved, and essential, as they clear a path through weak and moderately powerful foes. Their efforts then mean that, when the party stumbles across something unexpectedly powerful, or the enemy has finally had time to muster up a response, and the group finds fifty orcs, an illithid and a mage arrayed to defend their lair, the magic users are fresh and ready to to play their part; thinning the horde, countering enemy elites or facilitating a withdrawal.
Quote from: SHARK;1117851Greetings!
I have noticed a curious trend amongst groups of players recently. In these Adventurer League groups, no one seems to believe in being properly equipped for expeditions into the Unknown, especially dungeons.
"Do you all have a 10' Pole?" Blank stares.
"How about flasks of oil?" "Um..."
"Anyone have some iron spikes?" Chirp, chirp, chirp.
I'm just always boggled at how poorly equipped many of the adventurers are. But they have an embroidered handkerchief! Or a fine bottle of wine, or a mirror carved with happy kitties on it.
There has been several occasions when the group has encountered creatures in the dungeon where we could have gained significant advantage against them--but no one had the right equipment. My own extra gear being swiftly used up in earlier encounters, or of insufficient quantity for the plan. Still, it would have been very helpful and advantageous if other members of the group had been well-equipped for the expedition!
Have any of you had dealings with poorly-equipped groups of adventurers?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It's because they're not used to resource-management type gaming.
I've seen this too. Usually, what happens is players who are new to OSR games start gradually building up a pack of adventuring supplies to take with them based on things they wished they had in earlier adventures.
Thats probably true from the very start. The PC learn as the players learn.
This is one of the strong points of having a character that starts very new to adventuring. Like the player they likely do not know all the things to take with or not.
Quote from: Omega;1118806This is one of the strong points of having a character that starts very new to adventuring. Like the player they likely do not know all the things to take with or not.
It is for the first character. It's a bit of a flaw after that as experienced player knowledge exceeds new character knowledge.
Quote from: Bren;1118811It is for the first character. It's a bit of a flaw after that as experienced player knowledge exceeds new character knowledge.
Which is why theres suggestions in the DMG for starting at higher levels once the players are more seasoned.
Quote from: Omega;1118814Which is why theres suggestions in the DMG for starting at higher levels once the players are more seasoned.
Yes that can help, if the group has a homogeneous level of play experience. I'm sure many groups do, but I've almost never found that to be the case in any group of which I've been a part except with a brand new system.
Quote from: Bren;1118811It is for the first character. It's a bit of a flaw after that as experienced player knowledge exceeds new character knowledge.
Which should otherwise not be a problem. That implied degree of immersion is highly overrated.
Quote from: RandyB;1118820Which should otherwise not be a problem.
But it often is.