Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118044I always just saw 10 foot poles as the ultimate grognard item. Something that just requires your PCs to poke every inch and corner or be killed by an Animated wall, floor, ceiling, chest, staligmite, or some other ambush predator that existed purely as BS gotchas from a much more GM Vs Player hostile time.

So this got me thinking... obviously there's balance here, but on the other hand, think of the Indiana Jones movies. Some of the most iconic scenes are Indy dealing with traps. And part of the reward of gaming is the risk of loss to get to the reward -- no risk, and the reward is not so sweet. Encountering only embodiments of risk/opposition (e.g. monsters) is leaving some of the interesting exploration off the table -- even in real life, sometimes the environment is just set against you, though usually not to the active degree of a trap. Unless you're trying to rob a bank.

Anyway, assholes can be GMs just like assholes can wear any role's hat. But banks invest in security, so why wouldn't someone storing a treasure for their future life, or for their afterlife, or for the worthy hero promised in a prophecy also secure their treasure? And for the player, is the reward of a treasure meaningful without there being risk in obtaining it?

I guess to sum it up, any risk mechanism can be taken to excess. But that kind of everpresent player v. environment paranoia is not necessarily a bad thing, IMHO -- and not necessarily the mark of a hostile GM, either. And worrying about it being so and so reducing or omitting traps is missing out on a lot of iconic fun, I think.

Yes I've seen a fair number of poorly equipped adventurers. Some players like figuring out what equipment to carry and then finding a way to use it. A very few like it a lot. Most don't like it much or at all.

I've noticed that in D&D 5E the magic using PCs can sometimes use cantrips to create some stuff they need on the fly, so not a lot of encouragement to spend effort listing equipment. And Mage Hand works as a 30' long pole.

Recently I spent some time equipping my low-level, low-STR thief and keeping encumbrance below the 5xSTR optional limit. After a handful of adventures I've successfully used my 1 pound bag of flour twice. Once I used sleight of hand to swap it for a huge gem (kind of like Indy at the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark) and once conning some NPC into thinking it was a valuable poison or potion or some such.

Quote from: SHARK;1118046I have always thought that dungeons and campaigns in general, should be dangerous, and challenging, though not personally hateful towards player characters or otherwise operating in an unfair manner.

Im not saying they shouldn't be, but dungeons generally don't make "sense" the kinds of traps they have are not "Realistic". Now I find realism to be overrated but what that means is that its challenge is largely what the GM wants at the time.

A realistic dungeon of treasure is more protected by simply being hidden behind 20 feet of stone then by elaborate hard to maintain traps and monsters. Ergo a "D&D Dungeon" mainly exists to be fun.

And I guess I wouldn't say playing minesweeper with the GM is fun for me.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1118045As opposed to the current state of passive aggressive player vs. GM days of the present? Yeah, there are a lot of players that seem to think it is fun to fuck with the GM and the game in ways that only they find fun--and many current players will then cry when the GM responds with anything but acceptance of their stupidity. I think things like organized play encourage this bullshit.

Not saying the reverse is good, I was just commenting on what I dislike.

Quote from: insubordinate polyhedral;1118073So this got me thinking... obviously there's balance here, but on the other hand, think of the Indiana Jones movies. Some of the most iconic scenes are Indy dealing with traps.

Remember when Indie spent 3 hours combing every square inch with a 10 foot pole? I try to aim for Indiana Jones style traps as well, but they ain't nothing like AD&D traps.

Quote from: SHARK;1117851Greetings!

I have noticed a curious trend amongst groups of players recently. In these Adventurer League groups, no one seems to believe in being properly equipped for expeditions into the Unknown, especially dungeons.

"Do you all have a 10' Pole?" Blank stares.

"How about flasks of oil?" "Um..."

"Anyone have some iron spikes?" Chirp, chirp, chirp.

I'm just always boggled at how poorly equipped many of the adventurers are. But they have an embroidered handkerchief! Or a fine bottle of wine, or a mirror carved with happy kitties on it.

There has been several occasions when the group has encountered creatures in the dungeon where we could have gained significant advantage against them--but no one had the right equipment. My own extra gear being swiftly used up in earlier encounters, or of insufficient quantity for the plan. Still, it would have been very helpful and advantageous if other members of the group had been well-equipped for the expedition!

Have any of you had dealings with poorly-equipped groups of adventurers?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Since my player-characters are almost never professional adventurers and mostly adventures come to us unsought, we are often poorly equipped. I can't remember the last time we knew that we were going to a dungeon. When I GM, it is often much the same.

Honestly, when I started playing back in the 70s, we just thought the 10' pole was nothing but a silly joke (as in, "I wouldn't touch that with a dot dot dot"). The thought of actually bringing such an awkward object into the confines of the underworld just seemed ludicrous.

Now, that said, in one early session one player did insist on buying and bringing one, just for a lark. Sure enough, we had some slapstick fun with that, and for a little while it was fun, with him constantly bringing up short on walls and ceilings, poking people's eyes out etc but in short order the joke had run its course and the 10' pole never appeared again.

A pair of 10 ft. poles (along with tent materials or similar) can form a stretcher for carrying dead/badly injured companions or simply lots of treasure and gear in a manner that is easy to set down quickly if/when necessary (e.g., sudden danger).

Quote from: HappyDaze;1118094A pair of 10 ft. poles (along with tent materials or similar) can form a stretcher for carrying dead/badly injured companions or simply lots of treasure and gear in a manner that is easy to set down quickly if/when necessary (e.g., sudden danger).

A pair of 10' poles *can* be used for that, and in a pinch sure, but by choice? I've done wilderness first aid, including making and using expedient stretchers, and there are reasons stretcher poles aren't made that long. A pair of 8' poles will do the same job and be less awkward in twisty or confined spaces. They are also less likely to sag and snap than 10' lengths, given that you want the slenderest poles possible, not thick merchantable timber.

As someone else suggested, a spear of shorter length will do much the same job as a 10' pole but with less awkwardness in confined spaces, and other added functions.

That said, yes, if you happen to be rich in 10' poles, then by all means use them.... while too long for a stretcher and a bit short for a travois, they are potentially doable. Not utterly useless, but I wouldn't consider the 10' pole to be essential equipment, or even very desirable.

Anyway, leaving aside the merits of 8' vs 10' poles, I still got the impression the "10' pole" in D&D was always just a joke.

Greetings!

I have also seen adventurer groups enter into the dungeons and be poorly-equipped in general, regardless of personal feelings about 10-foot poles. Groups have quickly run out of food and water, as well as flasks of oil, and torches. A healer ran out of healing kits. When we did have more than one character with a ranged weapon--besides myself, the Firbolg Barbarian didn't bring enough arrows. Another character had a crossbow, but only had twenty bolts, and soon ran out of such ammunition.

It took quite some work to teach some people not to rely on spell-casters to somehow do everything for you at the snap of a finger, or to fully grasp the idea that somehow, the world might make demands beyond what they expected in a Disney film.

Once the group began to understand the need and great benefits of being well-equipped, having several kinds of weapons, having ranged weapons, a good supply of ammunition; being well-stocked in healing kits, herbs, salves, bandages, and good supplies of iron rations and water; other equipment such as spikes, rope, torches, oil, shovels, hammers and crowbars; Well, then it was a whole other issue of getting them trained into formations, battle routines and tactics, and staying focused on pursuing the mission instead of playing grab-ass for much of the time.

Far too much time was wasted on playing grab-ass, and moderating petty arguments between various members of the group over actions, direction or strategy in the dungeon, but also stupid arguments over how uber their particular class was, or their special class pathway, or otherwise how much of a special snowflake their backgrounds made them.

That has also been a long, slow, and frustrating process with the Adventurer's League groups.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Zirunel;1118096A pair of 10' poles *can* be used for that, and in a pinch sure, but by choice? I've done wilderness first aid, including making and using expedient stretchers, and there are reasons stretcher poles aren't made that long. A pair of 8' poles will do the same job and be less awkward in twisty or confined spaces. They are also less likely to sag and snap than 10' lengths, given that you want the slenderest poles possible, not thick merchantable timber.

As someone else suggested, a spear of shorter length will do much the same job as a 10' pole but with less awkwardness in confined spaces, and other added functions.

That said, yes, if you happen to be rich in 10' poles, then by all means use them.... while too long for a stretcher and a bit short for a travois, they are potentially doable. Not utterly useless, but I wouldn't consider the 10' pole to be essential equipment, or even very desirable.

Anyway, leaving aside the merits of 8' vs 10' poles, I still got the impression the "10' pole" in D&D was always just a joke.

The 10' pole is not inherently more likely to sag or snap than an 8' pole because you don't have to grip it by the very ends of the poles. I can't believe I have to point this out.

However, if your equipment lists have the option of 8' and 10' poles then I guess it might come up, but I have never seen that.

Quote from: SHARK;1118098Greetings!

I have also seen adventurer groups enter into the dungeons and be poorly-equipped in general, regardless of personal feelings about 10-foot poles. Groups have quickly run out of food and water, as well as flasks of oil, and torches. A healer ran out of healing kits. When we did have more than one character with a ranged weapon--besides myself, the Firbolg Barbarian didn't bring enough arrows. Another character had a crossbow, but only had twenty bolts, and soon ran out of such ammunition.

Did you make it clear that you're a DM that keeps track of these things in detail? And you were looking for an ultra survivalist experience?

As I pointed out, what is "Being just logically prepared" and what is "The GM just applying arbitrary standards of what he wants to be tracking" is completely 100% in your head alone.
And you where punishing players for not being in your headspace.

That's not clever or a fault of the players. You're not being clever for punishing them for not informing them about the experience you wanted as a GM.

My GMing career actually began following the pundits advice from his blogs, and the end result where a bunch of miserable players (And me as well in the end) and allot of yelling.

Since then I have always made it clear what I wanted and understood they are MY preferences and try to make them co-exist with what my players want from the game as well, as well as picking for players that want similar things to me.

Greetings!

It has been fun watching the Firbolg Barbarian and the Human Paladin charge forward into the archways and hallways, setting off the traps. Getting pin-cushioned by crossbow bolts, dropped into steep pits full of long, sharp spikes; tripping wires where swinging claws sweep down to shred them. Sprays of poison gas, or toxic spores causing them to change colour and roll on the ground, hacking and convulsing. And none of them have a 10-foot pole! *Laughs*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118104Did you make it clear that you're a DM that keeps track of these things in detail? And you were looking for an ultra survivalist experience?

As I pointed out, what is "Being just logically prepared" and what is "The GM just applying arbitrary standards of what he wants to be tracking" is completely 100% in your head alone.
And you where punishing players for not being in your headspace.

That's not clever or a fault of the players. You're not being clever for punishing them for not informing them about the experience you wanted as a GM.

My GMing career actually began following the pundits advice from his blogs, and the end result where a bunch of miserable players (And me as well in the end) and allot of yelling.

Since then I have always made it clear what I wanted and understood they are MY preferences and try to make them co-exist with what my players want from the game as well, as well as picking for players that want similar things to me.

Greetings!

*smiles* No, my friend. I have been a *player* in these particular Adventurer League campaigns, not the DM. I have had to watch many other players in several groups flounder about and suffer and struggle through various adventures. Oftentimes not well-equipped. I, personally, have wanted the expeditions to be united, disciplined, focused, and progressive, making gains, being successful every week, both individually and within the larger group picture. It has instead been more like trying to nail jello to the wall. Numerous deaths, lots of aimless struggle and petty squabbling and ego-stroking between individual group members, and only an often seemingly accidental process of teamwork with shaky loyalty at best from many party members.

Your GMing career began following Pundits advice? You had a bunch of miserable players? That's interesting, my friend! What happened along that journey?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1118106Greetings!

*smiles* No, my friend. I have been a *player* in these particular Adventurer League campaigns, not the DM.

Sorry for being bitter then. I'm bitter at that GM now.

QuoteYour GMing career began following Pundits advice? You had a bunch of miserable players? That's interesting, my friend! What happened along that journey?

His "Truths" didn't end up being as universal as he insisted they where. I like the pundit, and he does have good tips at times, but so many things he insists are "Objective ways the game should be played or are objectively good examples of game design" are just his over-inflated opinion of himself.

Quote from: SHARK;1118105Greetings!

It has been fun watching the Firbolg Barbarian and the Human Paladin charge forward into the archways and hallways, setting off the traps. Getting pin-cushioned by crossbow bolts, dropped into steep pits full of long, sharp spikes; tripping wires where swinging claws sweep down to shred them. Sprays of poison gas, or toxic spores causing them to change colour and roll on the ground, hacking and convulsing. And none of them have a 10-foot pole! *Laughs*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

And because it's 5e, one Long Rest later and they're perfectly fine and ready to do it all over again. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1118029https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1461/36/1461365206743.png

Seriously grognard game design is so much about preserving the babies' bathwater in jars and providing them equal importance to the baby.

Wow, Shrieking Banshee, I knew that 5E seriously limited player agency compared to OD&D and horribly Nerfed the non-spell casters, but I didn't know it was that bad, thanks for the warning about 5E.:rolleyes: