BX actually baked part of all this right into the gameplay. A turn took so long because the PCs were travelling carefully and searching and testing with whatever they had on hand as they went. Interestingly while iron spikes and 50ft of rope are listed. No 10ft pole in Basic. Expert added a crowbar, grappling hook, and the pole. Actually states the poles use even. Test pools, poke at piles of rags, etc. Spikes were to pin open or closed doors or anchor a rope. A rope could support 3 people.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1117974One great thing is that, with a DM like SHARK that cares about the details and in the right setting, you could probably pay an expedition outfitter NPC to put together the gear needed (assuming you can tell him where you're going, when you're going, how long you're going to be gone, and a number of other details that will help him to tailor to your needs). Sure, you could do it yourself, but in a world with adventurers, explorers, and expeditions, there are going to be hirelings that can help with this task if the players don't want to do it themselves.

Greetings!

*Laughs* That's right, HappyDaze! You are quite right! In my campaigns, there are expedition outfitters in large cities, in towns, and occasionally such knowledgeable folks in villages, especially in rough, borderlands where explorations and expeditions are prominent. Meeting with them, consulting with them, can get you and your companions fitted out very well, with specialized and tailored packages of gear and equipment based on what kind of environment or area you expect to be going. I have each environment with a specialized package, a list of special gear, all priced and ready to go.

And, not surprisingly, these skilled Outfitters are also knowledgeable and well-versed in the local area, animals, dangers, and lore, and present some excellent role-playing episodes for wise and thorough player characters. Outfitters often know of a group of professional guides, expert trackers and hunters, as well as valuable support services, like wagon-masters, horse-breeders, herbalists, and taxidermists, professional skinners and trappers, skilled boatmen, in addition to mercenary connections, professional bodyguards, and in some areas, friendly barbarian groups. They can also often connect you with skilled interpreters knowledgeable in various monster and barbarian tribal languages and cultures. Such experts accompanying you and your group on your expedition can often mean the difference between you making some new friends, and succeeding, or being unexpectedly taken prisoner, and stretched out to be tortured by fire and eaten alive by giant ants.

Players that pay attention to such professional Outfitters and others, can sometimes learn to take advantage of various circumstances and resources to cultivate windfall business opportunities and rewarding professional and social relationships.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: David Johansen;1117959I'd like to see you chop through a door with your javelin.

That's what fireballs or the guy playing the Half-Ogre are for.

More seriously though, the campaigns I run/play in tend towards the heroic fantasy side of the scale where magic is both more available (many basic effects are at-will... usable for as long as a warrior could swing a sword without tiring), but also more limited on the top end (i.e. there are no wish spells you can just memorize... that sort of thing is an artifact you quest for).

Summoning up basic gear (in D&D terms, one or more items worth a total of about 10 gp at any one time) that last up to an hour (or until you use the spell again; expended consumables also reduce the amount you can create with later castings of the spell for 24 hours so you can't conjure up infinite food) is one of the more basic forms of magic a spellcaster can learn.

The spells isn't quite cantrip easy, but it's still a pretty solid contender to be known by at least one of the party spellcasters because it covers for a lot of the really mundane utility items without needing to track specific ones.

As I mentioned previously, improvised equipment is one of the areas that magic is much better saved to deal with (i.e. solving for unknowns)... vs. using spells like goodberry in place of things simple logistics can handle (i.e. food is a known requirement that can be planned for... using your limited magic resources to solve that isn't good planning).

Quote from: David Johansen;1117959I'd like to see you chop through a door with your javelin.

Fighting axes tend to be too thin with too small heads to make for good door choppers. But even if they were, that just means sacrificing more range for greater utility as a door smasher. And I could counter with saying that I'd like to see you use your hand axe as a long pole for poking and prodding.

Quote from: Shasarak;1117960There is also the third school of thought which is that you take your basic equipment with you and then improvise any additional equipment you might need as you go.

Take for example one poster who regretted that he forgot to buy chalk at Ye Olde ACME Shoppe who would be in School 1 and another poster who would improvise charcoal from a burnt torch who would be in School 3.

Or maybe another example.  Our heroes are stuck in an upstairs room and want to escape through the window:

School 1.  Either has Rope written on their sheet in which case they can use that rope to escape or does not have Rope so therefore can not escape.

School 2.  May or may not have rope but assumes that of course they would have had Rope so therefore the Schrodingers Rope appears just in time to be of use.

School 3.  Either has Rope already or looks around the room and uses the sheets on the bed to make a jury-rigged rope that can be used to escape from the room while also accepting that their bedsheet rope is neither as durable nor as straight as an ACME store bought rope.

Did you miss the part where I said we then used a substitute instead of the chalk, or that we weren't actually using torches so we didn't have any charcoal available?

Quote from: Blankman;1117984Did you miss the part where I said we then used a substitute instead of the chalk, or that we weren't actually using torches so we didn't have any charcoal available?

It was just an example.

This sort of thing is one where the character should be making smart choices about what to bring rather than the player.

In the same way that I don't have to know how to climb the rigging of a ship or set sails to play a pirate I shouldn't have to know optimal camping procedures to play a ranger. This is why there is a survival skill on the sheet, not so I can use my own OOC knowledge to bypass the skill on the sheet.

When running games I think I'm going to start having each character make a survival test at the start of an expedition, success means you have the necessary gear for basic camping, failure means that you brought the accordion and the armour polish but forgot the tent pegs.

I appreciate and enjoy the fun that can be had from improvising solutions out of iron pegs, door wedges, rope and the 10 foot pole but I don't want to stitch my players up if they forget to buy something.

Quote from: Altheus;1117988This sort of thing is one where the character should be making smart choices about what to bring rather than the player.

In the same way that I don't have to know how to climb the rigging of a ship or set sails to play a pirate I shouldn't have to know optimal camping procedures to play a ranger. This is why there is a survival skill on the sheet, not so I can use my own OOC knowledge to bypass the skill on the sheet.

When running games I think I'm going to start having each character make a survival test at the start of an expedition, success means you have the necessary gear for basic camping, failure means that you brought the accordion and the armour polish but forgot the tent pegs.

I appreciate and enjoy the fun that can be had from improvising solutions out of iron pegs, door wedges, rope and the 10 foot pole but I don't want to stitch my players up if they forget to buy something.

Even someone trained in Survival (by 5e terms) might not necessarily know all of the tricky things that come up in dungeoneering. I think 3e (and/or 4e?) had this as a distinct skill and I'm somewhat surprised it didn't remain.

I do agree that character knowledge should help, and a DM can always allow an Intelligence or Wisdom check to realize a certain piece of gear might be essential (or you can hire someone to do this kind of thing).

Many times it's because some players especially new ones to the hobby are not experienced enough players to think of bringing everything. Mostly it is encumbrance and not being able to carry everything one wants in a character. Either using Herolab or not just being the standard class kit, weapons and armor can slow done a character to being light to medium encumbrance. Only the high Str melee types can carry almost everything they want at first level. So if the DM like myself tracks encumbrance and most do one is not going to have every tool for the job at least at lower levels.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1117990Even someone trained in Survival (by 5e terms) might not necessarily know all of the tricky things that come up in dungeoneering. I think 3e (and/or 4e?) had this as a distinct skill and I'm somewhat surprised it didn't remain.

I do agree that character knowledge should help, and a DM can always allow an Intelligence or Wisdom check to realize a certain piece of gear might be essential (or you can hire someone to do this kind of thing).

Once again, ACKS has this covered. Every PC has the Adventuring proficiency by default, which covers knowing how to equip for and function in an adventuring expedition.

Quote from: SHARK;1117935Greetings!

Yeah, in one group, we have a Firbolg Barbarian that is equipped with a Maul--a two-handed war hammer. Cool, but when I asked him what second weapon he had to fight in the dungeon's narrow hallway--he smiled stupidly, saying he has a hand axe. Ok, when progressing into a large cavern, where an evil troglodyte shaman is escaping, I fired my longbow and nailed him good, but he still managed to stagger on. Did the Firbolg Barbarian have a powerful longbow that he could finish the enemy off with?

No. He reddened. I don't have any kind of missile weapons.

My character says, "So, that means the Troglodyte shaman gets to escape to summon hordes of reinforcements against us, spoiling our great advantage of surprise. And you don't have a missile weapon? Great. Isn't that special."

*Sigh*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Sounds like you know my pain.

:mad: And what really chaps my hide is how people complain about the Fighter being so boring -- and the (Schroediger's) Wizard oh so flexible! -- and they deliberately ignore one of the Fighter's main strengths: proficiency in all martial gear. All it takes is some prep, coinage, packaging, and encumbrance room to solve many a problem.

But did you have to be so callous to the poor wilting barbarian's player's feelings? These snowflakes are trying, trying oh so hard! Gentle mockery, and shared gluten-free snacks, that's the way. Like a nursing foal, you have to coax them to their feet before life's predators eat them.

Quote from: Blankman;1117937Well a hand axe can be thrown at least, so at shorter ranges (up to 60 feet) he does have a ranged weapon.

My current 5e group is ... okay at this. My fighter is equipped with a glaive (which does double duty as a pole to poke things with), a magic javelin (for enemies that require magic to hit), a long sword and a long bow. Everyone has torches, we've got ball bearings, rope etc. But recently we discovered that none of us had though to bring any chalk, so I had to resort to using the wizards ink pen to mark traps on the floor. So, next stop is buying chalk.

Chalk is very powerful! It is the reverse of charcoal, being bright instead of dark, and highly visible in broad strokes. And you can grind it ahead of time and turn it into tracking powder, or a quick silent alarm -- that defeats darkvision lack of detail -- and an emergency attack (a blinding & coughing agent), too! Talcum sticks, chalk, even with a bit of binder (fat/clay), is a great tool. And cheap!

Quote from: GameDaddy;1117942In third edition there was a cantrip called arcane mark that allowed the wizard to inscribe glowing runes on just about anything. IMC I had designed a spell around or just after 1982 called Glyph which was a first level spell that allowed a wizard to write magic inscriptions and illustrations permanently on any smooth or flat surface. This was a custom designed spell based on the third level cleric spell Glyph of Warding, and the Glyph spell just contained permanent magical writings, but no other spell effects. I also designed a 4th level wizards spell, that allows mages to create and cast Glyphs of Warding as well. I keep Dragon #50 close at hand when running games, and it contains an article, The Glyphs of Cerilon, that expands on the available Glyph of Warding spell, and includes 49 news glyphs and a bunch of glyph related magic items. Really this is one of my favorite types of spell, and I always enjoyed having mages that could secretly leave notes, inscriptions, warnings, and other maps for other mages, for anyone that could use a read magic spell, or who possessed a gem or ring of seeing.

5e has the equivalent in Prestidigitation, where you can create up to three of such marks, which last an hour. Basically you can tag a colorful glyph onto something within 10' with just a Verbal component. It is a Cantrip, meaning you can cast one every six seconds, endlessly. Ths function of Prestidigitation is almost NEVER used in Adventure League play. This lack of recognized value pains me, too.

Quote from: David Johansen;1117943I love hand axes but carrying more than two is a bit silly.  As for chalk, if you've got torches, you've got charcoal.

Yeah, there are reasonable limits to handaxes. And yes, charcoal is a great asset, too. But again, most modern tables don't even know where to begin with such old-style lateral thinking. That said, talcum chalk and charcoal sticks are really two different assets due to their composition and visibility.

Charcoal is also great for making lye in time (water & charcoal), then using lye to make soap (lipid & denaturer like lye), and charcoal can be pulverized into a) inks (powdered charcoal & water) and b) "activated" (just means pulverized fine) into anti-toxin medicine, usually for ingestion. Chalk is a bit more expendable (less uses) and visible, which lends itself worth the copper piece.

Yes, I sorta roleplay MacGuyver, if my PC has decent knowledge or wisdom.

Quote from: Altheus;1117988This sort of thing is one where the character should be making smart choices about what to bring rather than the player.

In the same way that I don't have to know how to climb the rigging of a ship or set sails to play a pirate I shouldn't have to know optimal camping procedures to play a ranger. This is why there is a survival skill on the sheet, not so I can use my own OOC knowledge to bypass the skill on the sheet.

When running games I think I'm going to start having each character make a survival test at the start of an expedition, success means you have the necessary gear for basic camping, failure means that you brought the accordion and the armour polish but forgot the tent pegs.

I appreciate and enjoy the fun that can be had from improvising solutions out of iron pegs, door wedges, rope and the 10 foot pole but I don't want to stitch my players up if they forget to buy something.

I just assume that PC v. Player knowledge divide is solved by the assumption of Class (and Kit or Background) altogether. Basic knowledge to survive your immediate world is assumed, basic knowledge to do your class is assumed, and then basic knowledge to do your kit/background is assumed. NWPs (2e) are professional level knowledge. Proficient & Expertise (5e) are pro and expert level knowledge (that means lower your DCs, kids! enough with the DC inflation. )

I help out my players all the time with things they don't know, but their PCs do. I don't find that to be leading them. It's just covering what should be known, as I would expect, and then informing them. If they learn someing new from it, great! I in turn expect similar and look forward when people teach me something about a subject I did not know about.

Quote from: Opaopajr;11180015e has the equivalent in Prestidigitation, where you can create up to three of such marks, which last an hour. Basically you can tag a colorful glyph onto something within 10' with just a Verbal component. It is a Cantrip, meaning you can cast one every six seconds, endlessly. Ths function of Prestidigitation is almost NEVER used in Adventure League play. This lack of recognized value pains me, too.

Well, the Prestidigitation spell requires Somatic components too, but more importantly, "You make a color, a small mark, or a Symbol appear on an object or a surface for 1 hour. If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have up to three of its non-instantaneous Effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action." So no more than three such marks, not "endless" magical sharpie.

Somatic, yup, forgot that. But my first line does mention "up to three of such marks." Yes, there is a limit on marks quantity, but no real limit on casting quantity. You may cycle out your three tags all day long (along with light or extinguish flammable light sources, clean & reflavor things, and create range-limited magical trinkets) ... :rolleyes: I fucking hate 5e Cantrips.

As my players have aged and gotten lazy, and games have shifted focus to accomodate that laziness, I regularly have conversations like this:

"So, you're all ready to delve into the Crypt of the Necromasher?"
"Yups!"
"Are you sure, guys? All you've brought is a roll of toilet paper, a damp sack and that bunch of feathers you decided was important enough to write on your sheet three sessions back."
"AH-YUPS!"
/smh