Quote from: David Johansen;1117943I love hand axes but carrying more than two is a bit silly.  As for chalk, if you've got torches, you've got charcoal.

We've got light spells. Torches and a lantern as a backup, but spell-light produces no smoke, consumes no oxygen, doesn't flicker etc. So lighting a torch and waiting it out just for charcoal would probably have been impractical (we were on a timer trying to rescue some prisoners). But in a pinch, it might do, sure.

As for weapons, my fighter characters always tend to end up as walking arsenals (at least compared to the "I only carry one weapon" characters). But either way, if you just need a ranged weapon every now and then, two hand axes should do the trick (you should be able to retrieve them after the fight is done) although five javelins is probably better for that.

Quote from: Shasarak;1117881I have noticed that my players roll with the standard package of rope and torches and then just Macgyver up what they need from what ever is lying around.

I mean if you need a 10' pole then there is always something that you can use.

Your spear shaft will do just as well. You don't need a specific long pole.

What do you mean you don't carry a spear, they're great, all of the dangerous stuff happens at the other end.

I've tried adding pre-built packs to the gear list in my game. It seemed great in theory, but it didn't really achieve what I was hoping for in practice. Yes, is sped up character creation (the first time), but it didn't seem to help players make use of gear to solve problems. Nobody who took a pre-built pack ever thought to look inside it, as it were. If anything, I've found having players select individual items encourages them to think about how those items might be used.

As is seen even in this thread so far, there are two basic schools of thought.

1) If it isn't written down, it don't exist

2) Sure if it seems like you would have it, consider that you have it.


#1s love lists of equipment, equipment books and the like. If there is a difference between a knife and a dagger, and 4 different kinds of lanterns even better. They can happily spend half a session gearing up for an expedition.

#2s just want to get at it, and hand wave lists "of course you have some string".

It seems like a lot of games have shifted to the second style.

I am firmly in the first camp. I can certainly see the appeal to the second, much more time is spent on doing stuff, no need to track lists of mundane items etc. There is much less need for the player to actually have any outdoor skills to rely on packing for an expedition.

Me I love stuff, I enjoy trying to balance encumbrance vs being prepared and thinking about alternate uses for stuff. Separating my gear into what is expendable in my main pack, and the critical stuff carried in a smaller "survival" pack. The small pack being just the core essentials if I need to ditch the heavy pack and run for it.
I can have as much fun playing a session shopping in town, and gaining intel in preparation for an expedition as fighting a horde of orcs.

The critical part is understanding expectations. I suspect many of these players in the OP just haven't been exposed to the idea of detailed lists.

Quote from: Blankman;1117945We've got light spells. Torches and a lantern as a backup, but spell-light produces no smoke, consumes no oxygen, doesn't flicker etc. So lighting a torch and waiting it out just for charcoal would probably have been impractical (we were on a timer trying to rescue some prisoners). But in a pinch, it might do, sure.

As for weapons, my fighter characters always tend to end up as walking arsenals (at least compared to the "I only carry one weapon" characters). But either way, if you just need a ranged weapon every now and then, two hand axes should do the trick (you should be able to retrieve them after the fight is done) although five javelins is probably better for that.

I'd like to see you chop through a door with your javelin.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1117958As is seen even in this thread so far, there are two basic schools of thought.

1) If it isn't written down, it don't exist

2) Sure if it seems like you would have it, consider that you have it.


#1s love lists of equipment, equipment books and the like. If there is a difference between a knife and a dagger, and 4 different kinds of lanterns even better. They can happily spend half a session gearing up for an expedition.

#2s just want to get at it, and hand wave lists "of course you have some string".

It seems like a lot of games have shifted to the second style.

There is also the third school of thought which is that you take your basic equipment with you and then improvise any additional equipment you might need as you go.

Take for example one poster who regretted that he forgot to buy chalk at Ye Olde ACME Shoppe who would be in School 1 and another poster who would improvise charcoal from a burnt torch who would be in School 3.

Or maybe another example.  Our heroes are stuck in an upstairs room and want to escape through the window:

School 1.  Either has Rope written on their sheet in which case they can use that rope to escape or does not have Rope so therefore can not escape.

School 2.  May or may not have rope but assumes that of course they would have had Rope so therefore the Schrodingers Rope appears just in time to be of use.

School 3.  Either has Rope already or looks around the room and uses the sheets on the bed to make a jury-rigged rope that can be used to escape from the room while also accepting that their bedsheet rope is neither as durable nor as straight as an ACME store bought rope.

Easy access to the gear you need at the moment you need it is very cinematic, deux ex machina. For players who want RPGs that play like their favorite movies, this style is what they expect. It's in line with the concept of Heroic Fantasy where its pre-ordained that the Hero will best the Villain at the end of the story.

This is exactly why my players are informed that I run OD&D as Horror Fantasy. Except for the Final Hero, everybody else in a horror movie is probably fucked and if they survive, its usually due to a combo of wits and luck. Thus, I approach the game from that concept upfront.

This is not to say my way is superior (except for me because I freaking love it). It's a difference in styles and expectations and those are best understood by everyone before the game starts.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1117958As is seen even in this thread so far, there are two basic schools of thought.

1) If it isn't written down, it don't exist

2) Sure if it seems like you would have it, consider that you have it.


#1s love lists of equipment, equipment books and the like. If there is a difference between a knife and a dagger, and 4 different kinds of lanterns even better. They can happily spend half a session gearing up for an expedition.

#2s just want to get at it, and hand wave lists "of course you have some string".

It seems like a lot of games have shifted to the second style.

I am firmly in the first camp. I can certainly see the appeal to the second, much more time is spent on doing stuff, no need to track lists of mundane items etc. There is much less need for the player to actually have any outdoor skills to rely on packing for an expedition.

Me I love stuff, I enjoy trying to balance encumbrance vs being prepared and thinking about alternate uses for stuff. Separating my gear into what is expendable in my main pack, and the critical stuff carried in a smaller "survival" pack. The small pack being just the core essentials if I need to ditch the heavy pack and run for it.
I can have as much fun playing a session shopping in town, and gaining intel in preparation for an expedition as fighting a horde of orcs.

The critical part is understanding expectations. I suspect many of these players in the OP just haven't been exposed to the idea of detailed lists.

Greetings!

Exactly, Toadmaster! Good analysis! I have some considerable real-world experience at surviving in the wilderness, and a fondness, and respect, for various kinds of essential gear involved in such expeditions. Indeed, within the game, spending time shopping amidst the various markets searching out the appropriate gear, tracking down bits of lore, meeting interesting locals--it is all part of the game, in my mind. In a role-playing game, I am kind of boggled why anyone would not enjoy such activity.

And yeah, I'm definitely of the school that if you don't have it written down, you don't have it. I'm not big on the whole abstract "Amazon Bag of Goodies" Characters struggling with resource management, skilled and novel usage of tools and gear, pitting their will to survive and their skills and knowledge of woodcraft against the natural environment and the weather, the desperate struggle for survival against a harsh and unforgiving wilderness--these things are just as important a part of the expedition, and the adventure, as fighting a band of Orcs, or chasing down a group of brigands. Survival, knowledge, tools, struggling against animals and the environment, this is all part of the adventure. Just as when facing challenges in the dungeon, a misstep, or miscalculation in such an environment can prove to be swiftly fatal, let alone singular actions of stupidity or poor judgement.

I remember one of my first times out in the field with my Marines. I "winged" it, and brought just the bare essentials. I had my canteen of water, for eample. I soon learned from a buddy, who had searched out this special small kettle, big enough for holding like, 12 ounces. He had a small, steel grill that was like, the size of your palm. Fire for the grill produced with a heat tab, and within a few minutes, the bastard had piping hot, fresh hot chocolate. Day or Night. He could make hot chocolate, hot flavoured tea, or coffee as well. What a difference that little kit made for the expedition!

The next time out, I also brought my own, so there was also more to share. Amazing how much better the men feel out in the cold rain, crawling about in our trenches and fighting pits, when we have a little fire going, and something hot and good to drink!

Successful expeditions into the wilderness are heavily dependent on having proper gear. The idea of "winging it" and "Oh, well, we can just improvise as we go" puts your life needlessly at risk, or simply ensures far more struggle, pain, or suffering.

All because such characters could not be bothered enough to spend the time and resources appropriately bringing along essential and specialized gear to help ensure the expedition would have a maximized chance of success. Definitely, good and thorough planning, and being well-equipped for the journey is the better way to proceed.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1117964spending time shopping amidst the various markets searching out the appropriate gear, tracking down bits of lore, meeting interesting locals--it is all part of the game, in my mind. In a role-playing game, I am kind of boggled why anyone would not enjoy such activity.

I wouldn't enjoy it for the same reason that - in the context of a more sci-fi game - an extended conversation about the precise methodology and programs a hacker uses to fuck up the Gibson would be incredibly boring for you: because you're ignorant of the subject matter and you don't find it interesting.

And if - for whatever fucking reason - it turns out that you do know a thing or two about slinging code, feel free to replace that example with some other topic of which you have no knowledge and in which you have no interest.

I'm not going to spend time to learn about how wilderness survival works for the sole purpose of making a fucking game more interesting. I assume there are tools and skill sets that make that part of the thing easier, and we can simply assume they're there without getting into the bullshit of needing 10 foot poles because suddenly we're in the 70s and have a bunch of dickbag GMs again. I'm not really interested in getting into whether or not a player packed 50 feet of rope, or 60.

This is like bitching about the lack of lucerne hammers and bec de corbins and whatever other weird-ass polearms Gygax had a fetish for. Guess what, we (probably) don't need twenty different fucking polearms, we only need enough for a little variety. Same goes for random adventuring gear: it is better for the game if we can reduce all this shit about... poles and random tools and whatever into smaller lists with more obvious uses. Shit like "jungle exploration pack" or whatever. Why? Because (1) the vast majority of your audience has no fucking clue how to do the thing the pack is for, so probably couldn't reasonably plan for it anyway, and (2) it simplifies shit for everybody, just write that down and move on.

QuoteAll because such characters could not be bothered enough to spend the time and resources appropriately bringing along essential and specialized gear to help ensure the expedition would have a maximized chance of success. Definitely, good and thorough planning, and being well-equipped for the journey is the better way to proceed.

Yeah, because 12th level characters really give a shit about 10 foot poles.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;1117966I'm not going to spend time to learn about how wilderness survival works for the sole purpose of making a fucking game more interesting. I assume there are tools and skill sets that make that part of the thing easier, and we can simply assume they're there without getting into the bullshit of needing 10 foot poles because suddenly we're in the 70s and have a bunch of dickbag GMs again. I'm not really interested in getting into whether or not a player packed 50 feet of rope, or 60.

Same goes for random adventuring gear: it is better for the game if we can reduce all this shit about... poles and random tools and whatever into smaller lists with more obvious uses. Shit like "jungle exploration pack" or whatever. Why? Because (1) the vast majority of your audience has no fucking clue how to do the thing the pack is for, so probably couldn't reasonably plan for it anyway, and (2) it simplifies shit for everybody, just write that down and move on.



Yeah, because 12th level characters really give a shit about 10 foot poles.

Greetings!

Well, interesting, Gnomeworks. Like someone mentioned, it seems to be a thing of taste. Spinachcat and Toadmaster highlighted different "schools of thought."

I think though that adopting a kind of "Amazon Bag of Goodies" all in the name of *simplifying* any kind of equipment or gear list embraces a level of abstraction that I don't prefer. All in an effort to appeal to convenience and simplification for the players. Hmm. Something seems to be lost with doing that.

I suppose I am some dinosaur that insists my players write shit down, and pay fucking attention to being well-equipped for expeditions, and having their shit together. They eventually learn, or suffer and die in the process.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: HappyDaze;1117886By "screw you" I think you mean "allow you to screw yourself" because the DM doesn't make your choices for you.

Greetings!

*Laughs* Exactly, HappyDaze! "Allowing you to screw yourself!"

Players need to learn to make good choices, and become skilled in judgement and planning. They can't just lazily shrug and assume the Dues Ex Machina like some celebrity movie is going to sweep in and save them from their own stupidity or laziness.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: David Johansen;1117910The primary function of a ten foot pole is dangling the hog tied halfling thief into dark holes.

Greetings!

So true, David Johansen! *Laughs* That's the real purpose of the 10-foot pole!:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: GnomeWorks;1117966it is better for the game if we can reduce all this shit about... poles and random tools and whatever into smaller lists with more obvious uses. Shit like "jungle exploration pack" or whatever. Why? Because (1) the vast majority of your audience has no fucking clue how to do the thing the pack is for, so probably couldn't reasonably plan for it anyway, and (2) it simplifies shit for everybody, just write that down and move on.

Adults of the current gaming population might be too fucking dumb to figure out what's in a "jungle exploration pack", but kids and teens do just fine. I can easily tell them to write out 5 things in that pack and I'll get a killer list. And those little nimrods will figure out a laundry list of things to do with their weird bits in their pack.

*I once had a little kid ask if he could buy a bag of melted down candles. Why??? So he could set them up and it would look like they were burning a long time and fool the monsters that somebody had been in that room a long time. I know we can't expect that level of IQ from the WotC drones who show up at game stores for their auto-win sessions, but creativity does still exist at some game tables.

For many gamers, that creativity is key to their fun. For some, the gear minutiae is beloved. For others, its not. As always, its on the GM to understand what's the dynamic of his group and clearly convey what kind of game he wants to run for them.

But that's not to say massive gear lists are better than sparse lists. I have "polearm" as a weapon choice in my OD&D, not the Gygaxian mega-list. It's a long axe-spear hybrid with cosmetic variations between cultures, but all are good for poking shit from the second rank.

I also have no interest in my RPG session devolving into a shopping trip, and there is much virtue in getting on with the adventure without too much ado BUT each table has to note where "simplifying shit" results in diminished returns.  

Quote from: GnomeWorks;1117966Yeah, because 12th level characters really give a shit about 10 foot poles.

Depends on the edition and game style. When I ran 4e, it was heroic fantasy so 1st level PCs didn't need 10 foot poles.

My OD&D maxes at 10th level, and they certainly care about mundane gear. Of course, they have henchmen and mercenaries to carry stuff and poke about in creepy corners. But in a horror fantasy game, the need for mundane gear doesn't vanish.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1117970Adults of the current gaming population might be too fucking dumb to figure out what's in a "jungle exploration pack", but kids and teens do just fine. I can easily tell them to write out 5 things in that pack and I'll get a killer list. And those little nimrods will figure out a laundry list of things to do with their weird bits in their pack.

*I once had a little kid ask if he could buy a bag of melted down candles. Why??? So he could set them up and it would look like they were burning a long time and fool the monsters that somebody had been in that room a long time. I know we can't expect that level of IQ from the WotC drones who show up at game stores for their auto-win sessions, but creativity does still exist at some game tables.

For many gamers, that creativity is key to their fun. For some, the gear minutiae is beloved. For others, its not. As always, its on the GM to understand what's the dynamic of his group and clearly convey what kind of game he wants to run for them.

But that's not to say massive gear lists are better than sparse lists. I have "polearm" as a weapon choice in my OD&D, not the Gygaxian mega-list. It's a long axe-spear hybrid with cosmetic variations between cultures, but all are good for poking shit from the second rank.

I also have no interest in my RPG session devolving into a shopping trip, and there is much virtue in getting on with the adventure without too much ado BUT each table has to note where "simplifying shit" results in diminished returns.  




Depends on the edition and game style. When I ran 4e, it was heroic fantasy so 1st level PCs didn't need 10 foot poles.

My OD&D maxes at 10th level, and they certainly care about mundane gear. Of course, they have henchmen and mercenaries to carry stuff and poke about in creepy corners. But in a horror fantasy game, the need for mundane gear doesn't vanish.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Great points, Spinachcat!:D That reminds me as well, why do 12 year old kids easily jump into equipment lists, and grok the idea of being well-equipped, but all of this is just so terribly complex and difficult for modern adult players?

I have watched more than a few occasions where groups of 10, 12, 14 year old kids happily spend an hour pouring over the book, carefully recording their equipment, resolving arguments about why they need to bring X, but not Y, and only a few of Z. It is always hilarious!

They do seem to take it all very seriously though. Oftentimes being quite meticulous in gathering their gear, with a clear understanding of what they might use whatever gear for.

And they can be zealous, too. "No, Megan! Don't forget to bring a fishing net! You NEED it to catch fish in the forest rivers, so we don't starve!"

They also appreciate 10-foot poles so they can poke pits full of squishy, gooey slimes and spiders, moving it about to see what might lie at the bottom of the pit. Like my niece Lyssa told her sister, simply, "If you don't bring a 10-foot pole, then we will just throw you into the pits to explore them for hidden treasure. You can wade into gooey spiders and muck. How does that sound, Megan?" Her sister Megan brought a 10-foot pole. *laughs*

Good fun.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1117964Greetings!

Exactly, Toadmaster! Good analysis! I have some considerable real-world experience at surviving in the wilderness, and a fondness, and respect, for various kinds of essential gear involved in such expeditions. Indeed, within the game, spending time shopping amidst the various markets searching out the appropriate gear, tracking down bits of lore, meeting interesting locals--it is all part of the game, in my mind. In a role-playing game, I am kind of boggled why anyone would not enjoy such activity.

And yeah, I'm definitely of the school that if you don't have it written down, you don't have it. I'm not big on the whole abstract "Amazon Bag of Goodies" Characters struggling with resource management, skilled and novel usage of tools and gear, pitting their will to survive and their skills and knowledge of woodcraft against the natural environment and the weather, the desperate struggle for survival against a harsh and unforgiving wilderness--these things are just as important a part of the expedition, and the adventure, as fighting a band of Orcs, or chasing down a group of brigands. Survival, knowledge, tools, struggling against animals and the environment, this is all part of the adventure. Just as when facing challenges in the dungeon, a misstep, or miscalculation in such an environment can prove to be swiftly fatal, let alone singular actions of stupidity or poor judgement.

I remember one of my first times out in the field with my Marines. I "winged" it, and brought just the bare essentials. I had my canteen of water, for eample. I soon learned from a buddy, who had searched out this special small kettle, big enough for holding like, 12 ounces. He had a small, steel grill that was like, the size of your palm. Fire for the grill produced with a heat tab, and within a few minutes, the bastard had piping hot, fresh hot chocolate. Day or Night. He could make hot chocolate, hot flavoured tea, or coffee as well. What a difference that little kit made for the expedition!

The next time out, I also brought my own, so there was also more to share. Amazing how much better the men feel out in the cold rain, crawling about in our trenches and fighting pits, when we have a little fire going, and something hot and good to drink!

Successful expeditions into the wilderness are heavily dependent on having proper gear. The idea of "winging it" and "Oh, well, we can just improvise as we go" puts your life needlessly at risk, or simply ensures far more struggle, pain, or suffering.

All because such characters could not be bothered enough to spend the time and resources appropriately bringing along essential and specialized gear to help ensure the expedition would have a maximized chance of success. Definitely, good and thorough planning, and being well-equipped for the journey is the better way to proceed.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

One great thing is that, with a DM like SHARK that cares about the details and in the right setting, you could probably pay an expedition outfitter NPC to put together the gear needed (assuming you can tell him where you're going, when you're going, how long you're going to be gone, and a number of other details that will help him to tailor to your needs). Sure, you could do it yourself, but in a world with adventurers, explorers, and expeditions, there are going to be hirelings that can help with this task if the players don't want to do it themselves.