Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 04:55:24 PMFound Chris24601's alt...

Oh, look! You have no argument. Just glib dismissal. What a surprise.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 04:55:24 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 25, 2023, 03:54:41 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 12:04:41 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on September 25, 2023, 08:34:52 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 25, 2023, 07:47:22 AM

Quote from: Scooter on September 24, 2023, 08:57:33 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on September 16, 2023, 05:22:58 AM

The GM has to be considered too.  He is also playing, and gets a say as just like everyone else.  But this is session zero stuff, not a consent issue.

No, the GM ISN'T like anyone else.  He is the GAME MASTER.  If my players stopped a session just because they disliked the encounter they'd be gone.

He's only a GM if he has players.

The GM is a player. He's player who runs the game by the consent of his players. And if the players no longer give their consent to his shitty style then he's just some dude at an empty table (or asked to leave the table if in a public space or not running in his own home).

This is a cooperative hobby. Consent runs in both directions and the GM only has special authority by consent of his players.

You're completely missing the point. Player consent is given at session zero. After that, it's all consensual non-consent. Don't like the way a campaign is going to be conducted? Discuss it before it starts and forever hold your peace.

How about this: if the players don't want the GM to have NPCs do bad shit to PCs in a heroic campaign, are those same players going to be butt-hurt if the GM won't let the PCs do bad shit to the NPCs in a villain campaign? The answer is most likely yes - because of ridiculous player entitlement.

Should a GM accommodate certain requests? Sure - allow them to quest for the ultimate magic item or immortality or godhood or a kingdom. But the GM shouldn't be spoon feeding player wants and desires and sheltering then from the in-game reality. We have enough of that shit going on in the real world, with the predictable detrimental consequences to fragile egos.

No, he's not missing the point.  He's ignoring the point.

He's doing neither.

He's countering the point with his own nuanced and demonstrably accurate views that don't even have to exist as exclusive either/or propositions because both can be true at the same time. The GM IS the "Master" ("Yes, massa!") and has the final say in his own campaign. And he is also only the "Master" if he actually has players, which will leave if he's a piece of shit--meaning that he also has to take their wishes into account, at least to some extend.

And you dumb fucks are attacking him and reading shit into his posts that he never said (such as wanting DMs to be controlled by the rules), cuz he stepped into your two minutes hate and nuance cannot exist in this right-wing SJW forum. Cuz you can't stand people who get in the way of you mindlessly raging against hypothetical snowflakes that might exist somewhere in the internet (likely not playing TTRPGs or pushing their moronic views anywhere other than their empty online posts or your own politically obsessed imaginations). So anyone who offers some sort of alternate take must be some kind of SJW by proxy or ultimately want something that must be derided as idiotic despite being demonstrably true.

Found Chris24601's alt...

This statement of disbelief that more than one person could possibly disagree with you is proof you've crawled so far up your own ass in an attempt to smell your own farts that you've become an infinitely recursive inverse Oroboros.

Tell you what, smart guy... Sock puppets are banned here. If you genuinely think I and VisionStorm are socks, then report it. If you're right I'm gone. If you're wrong (which you are) then maybe allow yourself a bit of self-reflection about the fact you might actually be wrong about some things...

...especially given that you find yourself on the same side as a toxic manchild who's ability to communicate tops out in calling other people smooth-brains in possibly the most exemplary case of the Dunning-Kruger Effect of all time.

Nah, I just like to watch you two rage.  Smack one, and the other yelps.  Not because you are the same person.  Just because you are both broken in the same way.

Let the EuOroboros keep eating  his own tail. Don't engage it's a waste of time and he gets off on it.

Just don't acknowledge him. It's the worst possible thing to do a shit disturber.

Quote from: Abraxus on September 25, 2023, 10:39:58 PM
Let the EuOroboros keep eating  his own tail. Don't engage it's a waste of time and he gets off on it.

Just don't acknowledge him. It's the worst possible thing to do a shit disturber.

Are you following me onto other threads now?  Dude, I'm married...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 25, 2023, 10:33:33 PM
Nah, I just like to watch you two rage.  Smack one, and the other yelps.  Not because you are the same person.  Just because you are both broken in the same way.

"Broken" meaning that we're not habitual liars obsessed with SJWs to the point that any position that gets ostensibly attributed to them, we have to take the polar opposite and attack anyone who doesn't do the same.

Quote from: Abraxus on September 25, 2023, 10:39:58 PM
Let the EuOroboros keep eating  his own tail. Don't engage it's a waste of time and he gets off on it.

Just don't acknowledge him. It's the worst possible thing to do a shit disturber.

I try. But every now and then the desire to punch back gets the better of me.

I find their "Cargo Cult of the Earth Tone Box of Wasps"* to be sad overall.

* explanation for the phrase available upon request, but I don't feel like kicking down any further tonight.

Quote from: 3catcircus on September 25, 2023, 09:14:11 PM

I believe in giving players a "is that your final answer?" moment before bringing down rods from God.

I treat adults like adults.

Quote from: Scooter on September 25, 2023, 07:08:57 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on September 25, 2023, 06:07:11 PM

Quote from: Scooter on September 25, 2023, 05:47:46 PM


WTF is that about?  The GM doesn't coach the players.  Don't coddle the players.

Any GM worth their salt would ask that. 

Wrong it isn't the job of a GM to coach players over in your face, obvious shit.  Only if you're GMing children.  Not adults.  You've been GMing too many children posing as adults.

I am sorry. But we are all out of applications for village idiot here. Please take a number and wait your turn.

Fucks sake what a bunch of drivel. The DM is the players senses in the world. The DM is dead to rights to say "Are you sure?" and to remind the player that they are about to do something their character likely knows is a bad idea.

I unfortunately blame Gygax style of micro managing control freak  style of DMing pushed in the 1E DMG.


Many here and elsewhere believe it to be the gospel truth to the point that they come off as caricature and stereotypes of the worst GM.

I hope they run home games because that shit would not fly at my table. Most people that I game with and I would guess many of the player too. I don't care if you wear the Viking hat or soiled tampon or whatever. I will treat you with respect as I would any DM try the Gygaxian approach and I'm leaving the table. Or if it's my place I'm tossing your ads out on the street. Utterly non-negotiable or up for debate.

You want equal say, pay me a months rent or lose the confrontational attitude or get out. I do the same to players. No one is saying bend over backwards or even be their friend. If you think you're going to be a pure asshole  and expect everyone to just take it . Nah you're not paying me to put up with your shit.

Thanks Gygax you gave us at least two generations of misanthropic DM

Quote from: Omega on September 26, 2023, 09:59:54 AM

I am sorry. But we are all out of applications for village idiot here.

Well, you and your family filled them all in.

Quote from: Chris24601 on September 25, 2023, 07:47:22 AM

Quote from: Scooter on September 24, 2023, 08:57:33 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on September 16, 2023, 05:22:58 AM

The GM has to be considered too.  He is also playing, and gets a say as just like everyone else.  But this is session zero stuff, not a consent issue.

No, the GM ISN'T like anyone else.  He is the GAME MASTER.  If my players stopped a session just because they disliked the encounter they'd be gone.

He's only a GM if he has players.

The GM is a player. He's player who runs the game by the consent of his players. And if the players no longer give their consent to his shitty style then he's just some dude at an empty table (or asked to leave the table if in a public space or not running in his own home).

This is a cooperative hobby. Consent runs in both directions and the GM only has special authority by consent of his players.

Yes, a GM is only a GM if he has players. That's a given.

After that, this is where we disagree.

The GM is NOT a player. The GM/DM is first a foremost a referee. This goes back all the way to the roots of the RPG hobby in wargaming.  Now you may say we "evolved" from that, but have we really? Is it really an evolution?

I'd argue we haven't. In fact, the change in the GM/player dichotomy to where we're all "players" is a DE-evolution of the RPG. because some of us forgot that being the DM/GM is a role of many different skills or "hats" he has to wear.

The first "hat" is to create the world the characters live in. The DM/GM presents the world to the players, He makes them aware what's in that world and how it all works. At least to a point. Part of the fun comes from the mystery and exploration of the world. Not everything need to be said, but enough of the important things that the player characters would know. That's it. Everything else is there for the player characters to discover during the course of play. How much the DM/GM devotes to this varies.

The next "hat" the DM/GM must wear is his role as being EVERYTHING in that world the PCs interact with. Every monster. Every, NPC. Every god, demon, orc, fish, etc. Now the degree the DM/GM is willing to put into this is a personal preference.

Lastly, and most importantly, is the "hat" of referee. The referee understands the rules, be it a large set of books or maybe a homebrew thing in a notebook. They are not just his rules though. They are the rules of the game, and the players must understand what those rules are. If the players understand not only the rules, but also that many circumstances in the game will be decided by the dice within the framework of the rules, there is no consent to be given. the dice determine the result. The players understand that bad things may happen to their characters. Therefore, A referee does not need to ask the players for consent to adjudicate the game. The GM/DM is a neutral arbiter of the rules.

Because without a Referee, you no longer have a neutral party involved. It just becomes story-telling and Mary-Sue nonsense.

The dice introduce chance/fate/risk. What's the point then of playing an RPG without risk involved?

Now this does exclude certain things that maybe excluded from the game due to certain people and/or age groups, and that is agree upon before the game. No graphic depictions of rape or murder? If the group agrees upon this, fine.

But to force the DM to say he cannot polymorph, turn to stone, kill, etc. to a PC? Well...you're not playing an RPG then.

You're Mary-Sue story-telling.

Besides, if it's been made perfectly clear to the players that the dice will decide if your PC will have harm to them or not, then the players have no argument. It's a moot point.

You can't argue against fate/chance.

You can play however you want. If you want to play a game where it's all touchy-feely, no harm comes to the PCs, and they will always win at the end of the day, then go ahead.

To me, that sounds boring. There's no risk. There's no chance of failure. Fate is never tempted.

Me? I want a game where, yes, my PC may die. Or may turn into a newt! He may attempt to jump a ravine and possibly fall to his death (or severely injured). He may risk his life in the Tomb of Horrors. Tempt Fate by betting it all on the spin of the wheel.

But look at the words I use: "may", "possibly", "Fate", "Risk"

Those words introduce some mystery into the world. The unknown. Risk. Fate. That's a game I want to play.

You want safe.

I am not one for removing risk, fate danger or anything else that adds excitement to an adventure. I certainly don't want it to be safe.

I also don't need an DM/GM/Player being an aggressive anti-social retarded absolutely anal retentive asshole either.

Unless you're paying the players or drew up a contract thst either or signed they can and will walk away. The impression given to me at least here is that players are chained to the table unable to ok Vesak away without any power. Like it or not the power is shared. Players without an DM have no campaign. DMs who act like aggressive control freak will find themselves playing D&D solitaire.

You don't have to coddle players I certainly don't. If I tried to play the " I am DM hear me ROAR!" I would face my players engaging in a walkout. Again I blame Gygax and players who allow themselves to be treated like garbage.

This isn't even about risk vs safety, but a bunch of try hards hyperventilating about hypothetical SJWs ruining TTRPGs in general cuz WotC published ONE module that included a bullshit "Player Consent" disclaimer involving their characters being turned into mind flayers. Therefore D&D now "officially" requires DMs to ask for player consent before using polymorph. Except that isn't exactly what happened.

Because this module was a special case, were EVERYONE (not just PCs) in an entire geographic region would end up being turned into mind flayers (apparently without a save) if the PCs failed to stop some cultists or something. Which is not at all a normal scenario that you're likely to face in a regular D&D adventure.

Granted, you could still say that the disclaimer is a stupid and ham fisted way to handle that eventuality. But that still doesn't mean that this is about "OMG, these snowflakes can't handle failing a polymorph save. What a bunch of pussies! LMAO". This is a stupid adventure with a poorly thought out scenario that includes some "Player Consent" bullshit as a work around for how poorly constructed this module is.

But of course, everyone here needs to have their two minutes hate raging about tha SJWs ruining gaming so they can have an excuse to post about it at the main board (this came up in another thread before Pundit made a video on it). And go off on wild hypotheticals that have fuck to do with the actual circumstances that originally brought this stupid "Player Consent" disclaimer about. And since many of them also lack reading comprehension or any problems with inserting shit into other people's posts that they never said, they also have to attack anyone who brings nuance into the discussion. Cuz this isn't about having rational discourse, but about raging about snowflakes about how tough they are, cuz they like to play rough in an elfgame about rolling dice.

Quote from: VisionStorm on September 27, 2023, 12:23:25 AM
This isn't even about risk vs safety, but a bunch of try hards hyperventilating about hypothetical SJWs ruining TTRPGs in general cuz WotC published ONE module that included a bullshit "Player Consent" disclaimer

Because we've seen this before. It starts with one little harmless thing, then it blossoms into a full blown outbreak of insanity, and doesn't stop until an entire industry or beloved franchise is destroyed. Look at what has happened to comics for example. Star Wars, MSheU, etc.