I was trying (in vain) to find this thread on RPGnet from a few years back where a guy said he wouldn't buy from Troll Lord because of their political viewpoints.
Now, games or settings designed under the umbrella of political ideological fervor can be crap (see Rose, Blue), but I never really saw this with Castles & Crusades or StarSeige. I know there's plenty of designers who are on the other end of the political spectrum from me, and I don't care--as long as they are making a good product, I'll happily do business with them. I can't imagine politics entering into it.
Has anyone seen this happen? Now I'm curious...
Well, I've made a good arguement for D&D being obviously and deliberately set up to evoke ethical debates many times in the past. The very fact that you have to pick an alignment and it influences your powers and abilities is as telling as the fact that there are kobold babies that are worth XP at all.
Still, Price of Freedom, Year of the Phoenix, Recon, and indeed Twilight 2000 have a certain jingoistic nationalism to them. White Wolf is certainly a liberal minded bunch and GDW were pretty conservative back in the Traveller the New Era days.
Does it influence my buying habits? Well I've got lots of GDW on my shelf and no White Wolf but honestly that's more about prefered subject matter.
What were their viewpoints ? Not that it makes a difference in my case. kyle once said if Himmler wrote a good rpg he would buy it. Not me, I'd download it and pass it around free...everywhere.
Edit: Oh we are are talking about games.....
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;306501What were their viewpoints ? Not that it makes a difference in my case. kyle once said if Himmler wrote a good rpg he would buy it. Not me, I'd download it and pass it around free...everywhere.
Regards,
David R
Troll Lord? Judging from their blog, I'm guessing they were too far on the conservative side in their personal politics. Wish I could find the original post on RPGnet.
You'd have too work pretty hard on the "too far on the conversative side" for me to even raise an eyebrow, much less not buy your product. But then again, I'm used to designers saying stupid things :rimshot:
Edit: Actually I wish there were more "right wing" stuff. I may not agree with the perspective but I'm sure it would make for some interestin' gamin'. Kinda of liked Price of Freedom. I remember the shitstorm it caused in the pages of White Dwarf.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Zachary The First;306497Has anyone seen this happen? Now I'm curious...
I have never done anything like this, but I would. Now conservative or liberal doesn't bother me much, but I wouldn't buy a game from someone with extremist viewpoints or who in my opinion has a poor character (as in really poor, some flaws are allowed).
For example I buy games from Ron Edwards, because his only problem is a failure to communicate at times, which is annoying but ultimately I can forgive a flaw like that. I wouldn't buy a game from you on the other hand because of your fuckup with the Ennies, neither would I buy a Kevin Sembieda game because he is a fraud.
Quote from: David R;306503I may not agree with the perspective but I'm sure it would make for some interestin' gamin'.
Interestin' gamin' is all I give a damn about.
And for me, Palladium makes damn interestin' games.
Looking forward to seeing what they do with their urban combat RPG coming...sooner or later...written by the Detroit cop based on his very down and dirty novel of violent crime. Pretty sure the author and I have different politics, but I want to see what kind of fun comes out of his brain.
I remember the RPG.net pissfest about the Troll Lords guys. They're ex-military and like a lot of ex-military (especially those who didn't see actual combat), it sounded like they fell in line with the Bush bullshit. But I don't give a shit about TL's politics. I want the Castle Keeper's Guide. I am still interested to see what directions they go with that book.
Quote from: David R;306503You'd have too work pretty hard on the "too far on the conversative side" for me to even raise an eyebrow, much less not buy your product. But then again, I'm used to designers saying stupid things :rimshot:
My position. I could not care less about the political views of the designer, as long as the game is good. I'm buying a product, not looking for a friend who shares my viewpoints.
I might not get RPG products from someone I knew to be racists, or actively promoting/donating to, say, radical anti-abortionists or movements for denying gay rights or funding the Sarah Palin 2012 movement or something like that.
But short of that, short of actual money of mine ending up funding the Anti-Mexican League or something like that, I don't think that the politics of a company would be enough to get me to avoid buying a game.
The politics of a game certainly might be though, if it made the game suck (as it did with Blue Rose, for example).
RPGPundit
My only concern would be if an overwhelmingly popular game was produced by a company with a clear political bent.
I wouldn't want my money going to a Ronald Reagan lich resurrection fund.
I'm sure Hasbro, for example, contributes strongly to conservative parties, but that's business self-interest rather than ideological dogma.
Posted in Mobile Mode
Quote from: RPGPundit;306531The politics of a game certainly might be though, if it made the game suck (as it did with Blue Rose, for example).
RPGPundit
Agreed.
Quote from: Spinachcat;306526Looking forward to seeing what they do with their urban combat RPG coming...sooner or later...written by the Detroit cop based on his very down and dirty novel of violent crime. Pretty sure the author and I have different politics, but I want to see what kind of fun comes out of his brain.
This sounds interestin'.
QuoteI remember the RPG.net pissfest about the Troll Lords guys. They're ex-military and like a lot of ex-military (especially those who didn't see actual combat), it sounded like they fell in line with the Bush bullshit. But I don't give a shit about TL's politics. I want the Castle Keeper's Guide. I am still interested to see what directions they go with that book.
See sig :D
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;306503Edit: Actually I wish there were more "right wing" stuff. I may not agree with the perspective but I'm sure it would make for some interestin' gamin'. Kinda of liked Price of Freedom. I remember the shitstorm it caused in the pages of White Dwarf.
Oh, I hadn't heard of this. What happened/what was it?
Quote from: Hairfoot;306533I wouldn't want my money going to a Ronald Reagan lich resurrection fund.
Okay now this is funny and material for an
OtE one shot -
To Live and Die and Live Again in LA.Regards,
David R
Quote from: Zachary The First;306554Oh, I hadn't heard of this. What happened/what was it?
Here's a rpgnet review of the game : http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=5737&editionid=6452
When it first came out the letters section of the old
White Dwarf magazine (back when it was a gaming mag) was red with blood because of the game's perceived jingoistic themes. If I'm not mistaken what started it off was an extremely sharp (and funny) review of the game by a
White Dwarf regular (I'm not so sure of this, it was some time ago)
Regards,
David R
I boycotted a company because they printed a pro-abortion product. Not they were pro-abortion, but they printed a product aimed at promoting abortion.
I don't know if it's my politics so much as other things, but I see to regularly offend certain sectors of the population with my 'liberal' attitude to sexuality in games.
I'm surprised my obvious dislike for religion, which I can't really hide in anything I write, doesn't cause me more problems, but maybe people just haven't noticed.
(Oops).
I wouldn't buy a pro-abortion rpg because it's a stupid and puerile theme for an rpg.
I'm not sure if I used Himmler as the example, but David is right. Who cares? Why would I deprive myself of a good game, or inflict a crap game on myself, simply because of what I thought of the authour? That'd be stupid.
I think this thing of "I'll never buy from him because of his politics!" or "I'll never buy from her because of what she did to this authour!" or "but he dissed me!" and the like is basically confined to a few internet blowhards. I mean, who ever saw someone in a game store asking the staff, "Before I buy this copy of Car Wars, can you tell me about Steve Jackson's views on immigration reform?"
It's just the nerdfury. Means nothing.
Quote from: Zachary The First;306497I was trying (in vain) to find this thread on RPGnet from a few years back where a guy said he wouldn't buy from Troll Lord because of their political viewpoints.
I won't buy from Troll Lord again because they make craptastic products. There's lots of free games with better production values.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;306559I'm not sure if I used Himmler as the example, but David is right.
Sorry kyle, I was pretty sure it was one of those despicable Nazi-types, but I could be wrong.
Regards,
David R
People boycott other companies and products for political reasons that have nothing to do with the product itself (see Dixie Chicks). Why should games be any different?
If someone comes out aganist a game because of the political viewpoints of the people who wrote it, they're idiots. If the game itself dosn't reflect those views, then it makes no difference to me, as said earlier, if Himmler wrote it. I hate Johnny Depp's political views, but I will NOT miss a movie he is in. I, unlike others apparently, can seperate the two.
That said, if anyone spouts off the "jingoistic" or "right-wing" line as a reason to not buy a game, that'll tend to push me towards it. And since most (vocal) gamers, especially on RPG.net, seem to be just to the left of Mao, it tends to broaden my horizons quite a bit when they start a bitch-fest about games I'd likely not otherwise know about.
Also, I have "Price of Freedom". Ran it once. It was ok. You didn't HAVE to fight Soviets invading America, there was also a "V"-lite style invasion you could fight as part of the resistence. Twilight 2000 was better for most purposes.
Quote from: Technomancer;306568People boycott other companies and products for political reasons that have nothing to do with the product itself (see Dixie Chicks). Why should games be any different?
They're not.
But it's worth noting that the Dixie Chicks boycott had exactly fucking zero effect on their career. Probably even helped it. As werekoala's comment shows, for every person who boycotts, there's another one who buys the thing just to spite the boycotter. Probably three, in fact. Ain't no such thing as bad publicity, and all that.
If you want your boycott to be effective, boycott
quietly. Alas, the sort of cocksmocks who want to boycott are the sort who like to make a big noise about things.
Anyway rpgs are a fucking small market. "Oh no! We sold 3,011 copies of
101 Magical Doorknobs instead of 3,032, whatever shall we do?"
I wouldn't buy a new copy of an RPG written by Hitler, but I might buy one used.
Quote from: Werekoala;306570If someone comes out aganist a game because of the political viewpoints of the people who wrote it, they're idiots. If the game itself dosn't reflect those views, then it makes no difference to me.
This is my position as well.
Quote from: Werekoala;306570That said, if anyone spouts off the "jingoistic" or "right-wing" line as a reason to not buy a game, that'll tend to push me towards it. And since most (vocal) gamers, especially on RPG.net, seem to be just to the left of Mao, it tends to broaden my horizons quite a bit when they start a bitch-fest about games I'd likely not otherwise know about.
And this is the fucking truth.
I don't game to make a political statement and have yet to see a game where including politics have improved it.
What about a slightly different scenario, where a product itself has nothing to do with politics, but the company gives money to causes you are opposed to?
Quote from: Technomancer;306593What about a slightly different scenario, where a product itself has nothing to do with politics, but the company gives money to causes you are opposed to?
I pay taxes, and the government gives money to things I'm opposed to. And since companies pay taxes, even the most decent of them will ultimately pay for bad shit, too.
It's just part of the friction of the machinery of society, not much you can do about it. You can't follow your dollars around everywhere to see if they end up helping starving orphans or bombing them.
Quote from: Technomancer;306593What about a slightly different scenario, where a product itself has nothing to do with politics, but the company gives money to causes you are opposed to?
A company, like an individual, can do whatever they fucking want with their money. I want a gaming product that will be worth the price that I pay. Beyond that, I'm only placing restrictions on myself.
Quote from: Technomancer;306593What about a slightly different scenario, where a product itself has nothing to do with politics, but the company gives money to causes you are opposed to?
Do gaming companies really make enough money that they can donate to anything?
Maybe WOTC or their parent company, HASBRO. Most gaming companies, IF they donate to any cause or charity then I bet its a local one.
For example: It wouldn't surprise me if the employees of Steve Jackson Games donate to a local Austin, Texas charity each year.
- Ed C.
Quote from: jrients;306580I wouldn't buy a new copy of an RPG written by Hitler, but I might buy one used.
Kampfire Stories?
Quote from: jrients;306580I wouldn't buy a new copy of an RPG written by Hitler, but I might buy one used.
Kampfire Tales?
Funny most game companies I know are pretty, well, quiet about their standings politically. I don't buy games like Rahowna or FATAL, does that count?
I think some people are right silly about politics, I might refuse to buy something because of someone's politics. So far it has not been a factor. There are extreme examples, such as the two games above, that might cause me to stop buying from a company simply because their politics are so abhorrent, no money should go from my hand to theirs. I wouldn't intentionally support a racist or otherwise hate mongering company. (Gender, sexuality, etc, etc.)
The politics of the company isn't a factor in my purchases, unless they negatively influence the game itself (Blue Rose, etc.); as was already said, I would buy an RPG written by Hitler if it was good.
Quote from: Koltar;306602Do gaming companies really make enough money that they can donate to anything?
Maybe WOTC or their parent company, HASBRO. Most gaming companies, IF they donate to any cause or charity then I bet its a local one.
For example: It wouldn't surprise me if the employees of Steve Jackson Games donate to a local Austin, Texas charity each year.
- Ed C.
White Wolf has been donating to preserve wolves for ages now.
Quote from: Spinachcat;306526Interestin' gamin' is all I give a damn about.
And for me, Palladium makes damn interestin' games.
Looking forward to seeing what they do with their urban combat RPG coming...sooner or later...written by the Detroit cop based on his very down and dirty novel of violent crime. Pretty sure the author and I have different politics, but I want to see what kind of fun comes out of his brain.
Yeah unfortunatly the manuscript has already be written. But now KS has to rewrite it. So you may never know the original politics, or views on the subject matter. Much like Dead Reign, was rewritten and changed into something else.
Well I find all this "if the designer's politics negatively affects the setting" slightly funny. Most times it merely means that one disagrees with the politics itself. As mentioned upthread, this really isn't an issue with me.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: mhensley;306562I won't buy from Troll Lord again because they make craptastic products. There's lots of free games with better production values.
I don't want to totally derail here, but that's exactly what I thought when I picked up the 1st PHB printing for C&C, as well as Yggsburgh. But to me it seems they've cleaned up their act--my 3rd Printing of the PHB was much cleaned up, and looking through the 3rd printing of Monsters & Treasures I just got, they've even spruced up the layout a bit. I hope the trend continues, because I like their game.
Quote from: Zachary The First;306741I don't want to totally derail here, but that's exactly what I thought when I picked up the 1st PHB printing for C&C, as well as Yggsburgh. But to me it seems they've cleaned up their act--my 3rd Printing of the PHB was much cleaned up, and looking through the 3rd printing of Monsters & Treasures I just got, they've even spruced up the layout a bit. I hope the trend continues, because I like their game.
The last two products I recently got from them (a weapons & armor book and the engineering dungeons book) were both very sub-par in quality and in content. Never again.
hmmm...the collectability of a hitler written rpg would be right off the scales. Do you think he'd have done it before or after Mein Kampft? After he became chancelor? I expect at the very least it would have racial stat mods for the varieties of humans and would likely be extremely crunchy while claiming to be a rules lite story telling game.
My vote for title would be Livingspace
Quote from: mhensley;306743The last two products I recently got from them (a weapons & armor book and the engineering dungeons book) were both very sub-par in quality and in content. Never again.
I just got those as well...not exactly priceless layout, but I didn't mind them. Good content, I thought. Sorry to hear your experience didn't measure up. Anyhow, sorry to derail...
Put me in the "I don't give a shit either" category.
Most of the things I buy funnel money to something I don't agree with or would have at least some people working for it who do things I hate.
The only thing I wouldn't do is like what Pundit was talking about - buy something that's put out by someone who is primarily focused on doing something evil and just selling whatever to get money to fund it (thankfully,terrorist organizations like the KKK, Earth First!, and Al Qaeda aren't putting out any cool RPGs these days so there is nothing to worry about).
If a company is emphatically and openly: pro-abortion, anti-Catholic, anti-Orthodox, or anti-American... I won't knowingly buy their product.
If the product is openly advocating any of the above, nope, won't buy it if I am aware of it.
So far, only a handful of products have I refused to buy or read on the basis of offensiveness.
Only one company has crossed the politics threshold for me. Palladium Books. Their nastygrams to local used book stores over using promo posters bought from fans to advertise that they had used copies of PB's games was one straw too many.
Quote from: aramis;307041... anti-American... I won't knowingly buy their product.
Haven't heard this one before.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;307050Haven't heard this one before.
Regards,
David R
It's unpatriotic, dontcha know.
Quote from: David R;307050Haven't heard this one before.
Regards,
David R
Now that I think of it , I
DID see a game that bordered on "anti-American"....and that depends how strict your definition of that is.
It was a D20 Modern or near future book put out by a 3rd party publisher.
This was back in late 2003 or 2004. The publisher was one I think has sice failed or they've cut back on their release swchedule quite a bit. It also had slightly anniying green text on a black background for several pages - making it difficult to browse or read.
I remember thinking - "This might irritate a few people" when I read over the assumpfions and premise in the opening pages.
It basically didn't sell and was pulled from our shelves and sent somewhere else after 6 or 7 months.
Still wish I could remember the name of it. If there had been more 'Judge Dredd/2000 AD' sort of humor to it - it would've been a better read.
- Ed C.
Quote from: aramis;307041Only one company has crossed the politics threshold for me. Palladium Books. Their nastygrams to local used book stores over using promo posters bought from fans to advertise that they had used copies of PB's games was one straw too many.
That one is news to me. Then again, it is just batshit enough to sound like the kind of thing Kevin Siembieda would do.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;307137That one is news to me. Then again, it is just batshit enough to sound like the kind of thing Kevin Siembieda would do.
RPGPundit
Having, myself, physically seen the letter, it was signed by his attorney, not KSA. Store owner put it up on display, right next to the "Sorry, I won't buy any Palladium Books anymore."
Sysop News, back in the early 1990's, damned near needed a column dedicated to "Who on WWIVnet is KSA suing now?" Even still he has the most restrictive FUP of any gaming company I've seen.
So how is getting on FLGS' for selling used books political?
Quote from: Werekoala;307193So how is getting on FLGS' for selling used books political?
Its NOT 'political', it is bad manners tho.
Does his laweyer also send threatening letters to HALF-PRICE Books?
My guess is no - because HALF-PRICE is a chain of stores that probably makes more money than his company does yearly.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Werekoala;307193So how is getting on FLGS' for selling used books political?
It wasn't a game store. It was a used book store.
And, at the time, there was a move afoot in both the US and UK to establish a requirement for resold books to pay a royalty to the author from the resale.
The wording pretty clear that KSA/PB provided posters only for use by the original game store, and that the store is supposed to destroy them.