Quote from: estar;955580Ah make sense considering how they are setup. I will use adventure paths but I break them down into NPCs, plot (like what the NPCs plan to do), and locale. Then run it like I always run my campaign. Some are easier to do that with than others. Kingmaker is one I really liked as it was designed as Paizo's take on a sandbox campaign.

If a party is not optimized for combat usually what happens is something I label as "peck them to death". They won't meet the enemy head on or on the path laid out in the book. But figure out different ways to pick off the opposition and try to whittle them down to something they can handle. This could mean setting up a deception where part of the main opposition is off elsewhere doing something else. The original locale is somewhat depopulated compared to what was laid out.

It's more than just combat, though.  If you have to negotiate, better let the character with the 18 Charisma do that, because why would you put skill levels in "Diplomacy" with your CHA of 13 when the other player starts off so much better than you anyway?

Et cetera.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;955577In the model railroad hobby, it is possible to buy a fully finished, ready to go locomotive.  Put it on the track, boom, done.  Against a neutral backdrop, a photograph of the model will be absolutely indistinguishable from the real thing.

There are still people out there who take their miniature machine shop, and a bunch of brass bar and sheet stock, and painstakingly build a model locomotive with their own hands.  Some of them are quite good at it, and produce truly amazing models, down to turning the spokes for their steam engine wheels individually.

They do this because they WANT to.

I am in utter awe of that kind of skill at anything.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;955577And they don't really care what other people do, until the model railroad equivalent of ChristopherBrady comes along and tells them that they are doing it wrong, and, more importantly, that nobody ever really enjoyed doing it that way, and that the model builder in question is only doing it to "put down" those "damn kids," instead of, you know, he actually enjoys doing it.  At which point the model machinist takes one of his miniature lathe tools and carves his initials in ChristoperBrady's forehead.

Note to self: do not piss off model machinists. Ever.

*pulls hat brim down low over eyes*

2e had some interesting variants like a random roll for the point buy total.
Assign number of dice from a pool, roll those and keep the best 3 results.
A base of 8 in all stats and then you have 7 dice to roll and can assign those results to the stats.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;955454I thought that too until I played PATHFINDER.  You're using your stats in everything you do, and if your prime requisite isn't at least a 16 all you're good for is absorbing hit points from bad guy attacks.  Sure, you can still use your brain, but at that point you can contribute and use your brain without a PC, too.  I would not dream of making people use 3d6 in order in PATHFINDER.

Nonsense. You just need to have an O/AD&D attitude while playing. You take a stack of hirelings and henchmen and you ignore all the feats for jumping over a low wall and doing 423 attacks per round and scratching your arse and all that nonsense and take a ten foot pole and iron spikes and use your wits.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;955474A good tradesman wouldn't work with substandard ones in the first place, as if it was a point of pride.

What a good tradesman considers good tools, and what an amateur considers good tools, will be very different. Master craftsmen go for simple and sturdy tools that could have been used hundreds of years ago, amateurs go for the latest flashest most expensive tool - and then barely use it.

"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."- Bruce Lee

This is the same process in any trade, science or art. Further to this: options. It is "the paradox of choice" that while we think we need lots of options to be happy, the more choices we have, the less happy we are. This does not mean that the person living in North Korea will be happy. What it does mean is that having a few reasonable choices is better than having a hundred choices. I don't know if you're old enough to remember video stores - with 10,000 to choose from, you'd wander for 45 minutes and come out with nothing; visit a friend with 6 tapes, in 30 seconds you'd choose one and it'd be alright - usually not great, but alright. In the store you were holding out for great and ended up with nothing.

In character generation, people think they want endless options. This usually leads to endless dithering and buyer's remorse where they're constantly saying, "if I'd chosen Advantage X and Feat Y instead of A and B..." If they have just a few options, they choose quickly and tend to be happier with their choice. Random roll restricts choices. "But I wanted a movie about..." If you watch this movie you'll probably find it's not bad.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;955641Nonsense. You just need to have an O/AD&D attitude while playing. You take a stack of hirelings and henchmen and you ignore all the feats for jumping over a low wall and doing 423 attacks per round and scratching your arse and all that nonsense and take a ten foot pole and iron spikes and use your wits.

Unless the referee uses the "adventure paths" as mentioned above.  Will used to complain about this, and in that sense he was right.  In the current "pirate" adventure path you have to "do sailor shit," and unless you have a DEX or INT at least 14 you aren't going to get your mandatory "sailor shit" done.

Yes, this is bad adventure design, but it goes hand in hand with PATHFINDER's bad game design.

Also, teach your grandmother to suck eggses.  Neener.

Quote from: estar;955542Because RPGs are about experiencing a campaign where you interact with a setting as your character where your actions are adjudicated by a human referee. Not playing a wargame with a specific set of rules set in a defined scenario. RPGs are inherently freeform. As such exactly what is optimal?

Mister "D&D Touched Me In A Bad Way" is still feeling sorry for himself from 30 years ago, and still angry at those of us who dare to have fun.  Logic or common sense has fuckall to do with it.  The poor bastard needs therapy, he sounds like he's got Post Gygaxian Stress Disorder.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;955585It's more than just combat, though.  If you have to negotiate, better let the character with the 18 Charisma do that, because why would you put skill levels in "Diplomacy" with your CHA of 13 when the other player starts off so much better than you anyway?

IC, yeah I didn't care for the +1 per 2 points of attribute that D20 and 5e does. Which is why I adopted +1 per 3 for my own take on classic D&D. To get +3 you need a 18 and that with the default attribute being 3d6 straight.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;955657Unless the referee uses the "adventure paths" as mentioned above.  

I've had DMs try. We sort them out quickly. Like the 3.5 DM who was asking us our levels, we wouldn't tell him because (a) he should know and (2) that means he's trying to ensure we have "enough" k3w1 pw0rz to deal with encounter X. Fuck all that, if it's too easy we won't complain, if it's too hard we'll die or run away, or maybe even surprise the DM and achieve it anyway.

If I want to run along on a railway line I'll play a computer game, it's got better pictures and music and I don't have to look up any charts.

Just barrel on through and don't worry about the DM's adventure path, and then nobody has to worry that they forgot to put points in Basket Weaving.

Quote from: estar;955661IC, yeah I didn't care for the +1 per 2 points of attribute that D20 and 5e does. Which is why I adopted +1 per 3 for my own take on classic D&D. To get +3 you need a 18 and that with the default attribute being 3d6 straight.

Every 2 points works. But I think instead it could start kicking in at 14 instead of 12. But it works as is due to the way 5e handles to-hits and the de-empjhasis on magic items. Though you could just bump up the proficiency bonus by one to cover the loss.

Though BX started at 13 with +1 to 15 and then +2 16 to 17, then +3 at 18.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;955642Further to this: options. It is "the paradox of choice" that while we think we need lots of options to be happy, the more choices we have, the less happy we are. This does not mean that the person living in North Korea will be happy. What it does mean is that having a few reasonable choices is better than having a hundred choices. I don't know if you're old enough to remember video stores - with 10,000 to choose from, you'd wander for 45 minutes and come out with nothing; visit a friend with 6 tapes, in 30 seconds you'd choose one and it'd be alright - usually not great, but alright. In the store you were holding out for great and ended up with nothing.

In character generation, people think they want endless options. This usually leads to endless dithering and buyer's remorse where they're constantly saying, "if I'd chosen Advantage X and Feat Y instead of A and B..." If they have just a few options, they choose quickly and tend to be happier with their choice. Random roll restricts choices. "But I wanted a movie about..." If you watch this movie you'll probably find it's not bad.

True, and well worth noting, but I don't see why the best way of going about it is to randomly restrict choices rather than just offering a comprehensible number of viable options to everyone. If you roll 3 in each attribute your choices are shitty fighter or shitty fighter, so then we're back to North Korea, and if you roll 18 in every attribute you can be anything you want, which means that your choices aren't restricted after all. I mean, both those are unlikely scenarios, but you see what I mean - random rolls restrict options randomly. If your priority is hitting the sweet spot of just enough choices for it to be fun, not too many and not too few, it seems to me that you're better off trying to design the system to hit it every time.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;955658Mister "D&D Touched Me In A Bad Way" is still feeling sorry for himself from 30 years ago, and still angry at those of us who dare to have fun.  Logic or common sense has fuckall to do with it.  The poor bastard needs therapy, he sounds like he's got Post Gygaxian Stress Disorder.

So this is how you make yourself feel better for being out of touch?  Ad hominems and vague swipes at others for daring not to like you're oh so hardcore playstyle?  Really?  And you're what?  Nearing 60?  And you're still reacting like you were in your teens and got bullied?

Meh, you're not that important, Binky, you want to make yourself feel better by trivializing other's play experience because it's not the 'right way' to play, go ahead.  I've said my piece, and it clearly bothers you enough to keep after me, but I'm done.  I prefer point buy because of the inherent 'fairness' of having a level playing field (as long as you don't have a disad system that can be abused, or players you cannot trust to play the way you set out.  Like Gronan apparently doesn't, poor sap.)

Not claiming it's better, but I prefer it.  And so do my friends.

Peace out, and happy gaming.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;955530In two posts I pointed out that Voros' claim about 3d6 in 1e AD&D was bullshit...

Course as I and others already pointed out I never actually said that so you either lack basic reading comprehension or like to argue with the voices in your head.

Given how many people said "I prefer what I prefer, I'm not even saying it's better, you play what you want"...why is anyone still posting?
Oh, right, for the popcorn! Right, I'll get to this in a minute:).

Quote from: estar;955535Sounds more like a problem with the campaign not the game. If the campaign is all about combat and you don't optimize for combat then your character will feel like a fifth wheel. In addition if encounters are designed to be "level appropriate" rather than what natural for the setting again a non-optimized character will feel like a fifth wheel.

But the PF's GM advice tells you to give level-appropriate encounters, thus exacerbating the problem.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;955567I'm very indecisive when it comes to popcorn, so I like to get a Xmas three-flavor tin and then roll on my custom random encounter table:

1-4 Go classic! (Butter)
5-8 Go dairy! (Cheese)
7-14 Get sweet! (Caramel)
15-16 Butter, and roll on Table 73: Random fridge leftovers
17-18: Cheese, and roll on Table 102: Random questionably half-eaten pantry items
19: Caramel, and roll again
20: Get your lazy ass outdoors

Man, I've only prepared classic. So, re-roll until you get 1-4, then tell me whether you want extra salt...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;955573Oh, certainly; the game sessions are all commercial "Adventure Paths," which are designed exactly that way.

I feel your pain, Glorious General!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;955577But, you see, the dichotomy is false.

Analogy is always suspect, but I'm going to use one anyway.

In the model railroad hobby, it is possible to buy a fully finished, ready to go locomotive.  Put it on the track, boom, done.  Against a neutral backdrop, a photograph of the model will be absolutely indistinguishable from the real thing.

There are still people out there who take their miniature machine shop, and a bunch of brass bar and sheet stock, and painstakingly build a model locomotive with their own hands.  Some of them are quite good at it, and produce truly amazing models, down to turning the spokes for their steam engine wheels individually.

They do this because they WANT to.

And they don't really care what other people do, until the model railroad equivalent of ChristopherBrady comes along and tells them that they are doing it wrong, and, more importantly, that nobody ever really enjoyed doing it that way, and that the model builder in question is only doing it to "put down" those "damn kids," instead of, you know, he actually enjoys doing it.  At which point the model machinist takes one of his miniature lathe tools and carves his initials in ChristoperBrady's forehead.

Here endeth the lesson.

I had almost guessed the ending, including the location...but then it was a miniature tool?
For shame!

Quote from: estar;955580Ah make sense considering how they are setup. I will use adventure paths but I break them down into NPCs, plot (like what the NPCs plan to do), and locale. Then run it like I always run my campaign. Some are easier to do that with than others. Kingmaker is one I really liked as it was designed as Paizo's take on a sandbox campaign.

If a party is not optimized for combat usually what happens is something I label as "peck them to death". They won't meet the enemy head on or on the path laid out in the book. But figure out different ways to pick off the opposition and try to whittle them down to something they can handle. This could mean setting up a deception where part of the main opposition is off elsewhere doing something else. The original locale is somewhat depopulated compared to what was laid out.

Funny coincidence, Kingmaker is among the most sought-after PF campaigns on various PbP sites.
And I approve of this approach:D.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;955585It's more than just combat, though.  If you have to negotiate, better let the character with the 18 Charisma do that, because why would you put skill levels in "Diplomacy" with your CHA of 13 when the other player starts off so much better than you anyway?

Et cetera.

Yeah, I don't like it either when a PC with 13 Cha thinks of a good argument, but then goes, "no, let the 18 Cha PC present it instead of me".
But this is true even with no point-buy, as long as the modifiers matter. The modifier we're talking about is +1 vs +3 in this case, BTW.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;955641Nonsense. You just need to have an O/AD&D attitude while playing. You take a stack of hirelings and henchmen and you ignore all the feats for jumping over a low wall and doing 423 attacks per round and scratching your arse and all that nonsense and take a ten foot pole and iron spikes and use your wits.

Only if those hirelings stand a chance at hitting the opposition, though. The average hireling in PF might well have a +3 to +5 to attack, when you start facing things with AC in the 25-28 range, that's not really useful contribution.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;955642What a good tradesman considers good tools, and what an amateur considers good tools, will be very different. Master craftsmen go for simple and sturdy tools that could have been used hundreds of years ago, amateurs go for the latest flashest most expensive tool - and then barely use it.

"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."- Bruce Lee

Now, those aren't the same thing. A few simple tools, applied universally is not the same as returning to the basics and seeing them on a whole new level.

QuoteThis is the same process in any trade, science or art. Further to this: options. It is "the paradox of choice" that while we think we need lots of options to be happy, the more choices we have, the less happy we are. This does not mean that the person living in North Korea will be happy. What it does mean is that having a few reasonable choices is better than having a hundred choices. I don't know if you're old enough to remember video stores - with 10,000 to choose from, you'd wander for 45 minutes and come out with nothing; visit a friend with 6 tapes, in 30 seconds you'd choose one and it'd be alright - usually not great, but alright. In the store you were holding out for great and ended up with nothing.

I remember video stores. My local store had upwards of 20 000 titles.
I've never gone there and returned without a movie;).

QuoteIn character generation, people think they want endless options. This usually leads to endless dithering and buyer's remorse where they're constantly saying, "if I'd chosen Advantage X and Feat Y instead of A and B..." If they have just a few options, they choose quickly and tend to be happier with their choice. Random roll restricts choices. "But I wanted a movie about..." If you watch this movie you'll probably find it's not bad.

I don't think, I know I want endless options.
And I never have buyer's remorse, except when I see someone has devised a way to get the same results with less character resources:D!
I sacrifice endless options on the altar of tying the PCs to the setting and discovering them in chargen, but it's not because I won't be able to construct them as fast. If anything, I find point-buy to be faster than my preferred lifepaths;)!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;955664I've had DMs try. We sort them out quickly. Like the 3.5 DM who was asking us our levels, we wouldn't tell him because (a) he should know and (2) that means he's trying to ensure we have "enough" k3w1 pw0rz to deal with encounter X. Fuck all that, if it's too easy we won't complain, if it's too hard we'll die or run away, or maybe even surprise the DM and achieve it anyway.

If I want to run along on a railway line I'll play a computer game, it's got better pictures and music and I don't have to look up any charts.

Just barrel on through and don't worry about the DM's adventure path, and then nobody has to worry that they forgot to put points in Basket Weaving.

While that's an attitude I approve, I'd also like to note that you'd be better served by a system that's not 3.5/Pathfinder:D!

Yeah I don't recall leaving a video store with nothing to watch. I may have taken a long time but I usually left with 3-4 movies for the weekend.