Quote from: Black Vulmea;955046You want room 12A, next door.

It's getting hit on the head lessons here.

This is like rappers trying to show their street cred... random in order is so OG!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;955120Nope.  OD&D is the woodgrain box with three booklets.
http://www.dragontrove.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/8295.jpg

Huh, I've never seen that. Not in the wild anyway

Quote from: Tequila SunriseMy wife likes to roll, so I'm really excited to playtest a new D&D-ish indie game that has options for both rolling (a randomly arranged array) and point buy. Players who like to roll to discover their character can do that, and those who show up with a character in mind can make it happen. Imagine that!

Quote from: AsenRGNow that's just crazy talk:D!
(It's also what I do at my tables:)).

Lol, perish the thought that gamers with different tastes get to have fun at the same table, right?

You know, random chargen and point buy aren’t ‘natural enemies’ the way we tend to treat them in these online flame wars. There are ways to do random that don’t infringe on the fairness that point buy fans value. BUT sadly a lot of D&D fans don’t just want random chargen — they want D&D-style random chargen. Or at least there’s a perception that many of us want to specifically grab those d6s, rather than use any other random method like random arrays, and play the chargen lottery ‘the way it’s always been done.’ (Airquoted because apparently the way stats are rolled in latter editions is not the same as they are in prior editions.)

Which is why, after 40 years of D&D, the latest edition is still causing flame wars over its default stat gen methods.

Quote from: Tequila SunriseOne of the most common and strongest of human values is that of fairness -- insofar as being fair to others is feasible, we teach kids to do so, and we often shame and judge harshly adults who act unfairly in the face of self-interest or when it conflicts with other values. Anecdotally, there is exactly one activity I can think of where being fair is automatically 100% worthy of ridicule, and that activity is nothing like any rpg. One of the big appeals of point buy is that it introduces more fairness to the chargen process. (And before someone who thinks themselves clever says "life isn't fair," reread the first sentence of this paragraph, and remember that we're talking about fantasy elfgames.)

So if you do believe that D&Ders who want an even playing field are worthy of shame -- and I'm asking here, because neither of you did more than object to my analogies, so maybe you don't believe so -- let's turn this issue around. What in your mind makes a cooperative hobby like D&D, or any other ttrpg, such an appropriate medium for shaming those who want more fairness, a foundational human value?

Quote from: AsenRGTo me, at least, fairness doesn't translate to "equal starting point". We strive to be fair to them despite that.
(And even point-buy does, in quite a few games, create very unequal characters. Do I need to mention White Wolf, or how some concepts will make you suck XP penalties even in Savage Worlds, not to mention GURPS?)

No doubt point buy doesn't magically make everything in a game fair. What do you mean by striving to be fair to them despite unequal an starting point? It sounds like perhaps point buy simply introduces fairness a step earlier than you care for.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;955118If everyone rolls 3d6 in order six times, that's completely fair.  Everyone has the same chances.

So is playing Russian Roulette where everyone has 1/6 of being shot.  That doesn't mean that I want to play it.

Quote from: Tequila SunriseI've never met the human being without a fault or two, so the question is: Which faults can I deal with, which can I turn into non-issues, and which are going to kill my enthusiasm for running a game? Every time I designate a fault as 'asshat,' I narrow my pool of potential players, and if I demand faultlessness I'll have nobody to game with except myself.  So we all have our priorities.

Quote from:  SpinachcatThe asshats who shit themselves during chargen don't magically become good players when other randomness shows up - like bad saving throws, bad combats, etc. Their min/max +10 bonus doesn't do squat when they roll a 2 vs. a TN 14.  

You may be surprised to learn that many players who object to random chargen are totally kool with random gameplay, no magic involved.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;955129So is playing Russian Roulette where everyone has 1/6 of being shot.  That doesn't mean that I want to play it.

So if you get bad rolls the DM shoots you? And I thought I was a hardcore DM!

Quote from: Tequila SunrisePrimary school education is a direct competition?  Well ok, given how Republicans like to underfund classrooms and promote 'school choice'...
-----------------------------------------snip------------------------------------------
What in your mind makes a cooperative hobby like D&D, or any other ttrpg, such an appropriate medium for shaming those who want more fairness, a foundational human value?

Quote from: CatelfDid I SAY it was a direct competition?

No, Tristram Evans did, and my comment about education was directed at him.

In my experience public grade school was very non-competetive, education wise. (Obviously juvenile politics is a different story.) Same story with public secondary ed, different story with private secondary ed. But like you say, this is pretty OT, so I won't get into the hows and whys.

Quote from: CatelfBeyond that, no one is shaming anyone for anything here.

I disagree. I'm sure now that I've linked directly to his post, he and others will pop up within hours to defend his toxic attitude with variations of "Lighten up fuckwit, it's just a forum nerdwar, if you can't deal with a little joshin' you need to grow up, grow some goddamn skin, etc.." Such is the excuse of every anonymity-entitled internet manchild.

But if that's not shaming, I don't know what is, and I don't see what we have to talk about.

Quote from: CatelfAs I mentioned, I PREFER POINT-BUY.
I'm just adding it again, in case you missed it.

I didn't miss it, nor did I miss any of your other point-by-point objections to my initial post. If I replied to every comment directed at me, I'd need to quit my job and all my hobbies.

Quote from: CatelfAlso, if you read all comments, you'd know that this thread is, to some, only partially serious.
Someone pointed out that it was "clickbait" even.
And in a way, it is.

Oh, it's undoubtedly clickbait right from post #1. I imagine Pundy must be having a good chuckle at us, but I like a good flamewar once in a while too. And yes, I've picked up on the forum's macho-grog culture, and how some members get their jollies from stirring shit up and then abdicating all responsibility for their posts.

Quote from: Tequila SunriseI can come up with endless analogies. Shaming gamers who want a level playing field is as ridiculous as shaming a casual poker player who wants to start with the same number of equally valueless chips as his friends. Shaming gamers who want a level playing field is as ridiculous as shaming hobbyists who want an equal stake in the bullets they chipped in equally for, the yarn they chipped in equally for, etc..

Quote from: nDervishWhat about the argument that point-buy doesn't provide a level playing field, but instead tends to reward system mastery and penalize the lack of same? (Hell, with their admitted inclusion of "trap options", D&D3 was deliberately intended to give unfair advantages to those who weren't aware of the traps!)

My opinion is this: If you're concerned with PC-PC balance, and I am, depending on fate to start the noob or casual gamer with great stats and the system master with poor stats is a sad solution. It only ends up that way sometimes, and when fate is a bitch, the system master gets even more of an advantage.

Quote from: Tequila SunriseOne of the most common and strongest of human values is that of fairness -- insofar as being fair to others is feasible, we teach kids to do so, and we often shame and judge harshly adults who act unfairly in the face of self-interest or when it conflicts with other values. Anecdotally, there is exactly one activity I can think of where being fair is automatically 100% worthy of ridicule, and that activity is nothing like any rpg. One of the big appeals of point buy is that it introduces more fairness to the chargen process.

Quote from: nDervishAssuming nobody is using loaded dice, fudging rolls, etc., I find random chargen to be completely fair. Everyone has the same chance of rolling a 3 or an 18 as anyone else does.

I imagine your response will be that it's still unfair that the player who rolls well will have an enduring advantage for as long as the characters survive. While it is true that any single instance of random chargen will produce advantages for some players and disadvantages for others, over the course of multiple sets of characters, it tends to even out. Unlike point-buy systems, where the high-system-mastery player will reliably have an enduring advantage over the low-system-mastery player every single time. You're free to disagree, of course, but, personally, it feels more fair to me if either of us has an equal chance to have an advantage than if I know, even before we start making characters, that you're going to have an advantage every time.

I don't mind random stats so much for one-shot adventures, for this very reason. But an extended campaign is far more time than I want to spend with rolled stats.

The nature of rolled fairness is this: Rolling for stats is completely 100% fair...right up until the moment those first d6s are rolled, and those rolled stats are completely 100% unfair the moment everyone has finished rolling. And as you say, it's the post-rolling unfairness that carries through each character's life. So yeah, you got my response pretty spot-on.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;955117Because Gygax wanted to scar players' psyches' for years to come!! WAAAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Because "he thought it was fun" can't possibly be right.  Rolling to see what you get was considered by us to be fun.

heh-heh. Rolling stats is fun.

Now if we could wean Chris and some others off the notion high stats are mandated or some god given right in pre-3e...

Or stencil it on everyones frontal love that high and low stats are generally rare and then educate them on the damn bell curve effect which even a total math failure like me can grasp...

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;955137If you're concerned with PC-PC balance, and I am -

Why?

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;955129So is playing Russian Roulette where everyone has 1/6 of being shot.  That doesn't mean that I want to play it.

Hate to break it to you. But point buy can be just as un-fair in the wrong hands.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;955139Why?

Because some player fucking OBSESS over and worship the great god BALANCE! And they were bitching during the 5e playtest too.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;955139Why?

As near as I can tell, some people throw a full-on screaming shit fit if they don't get to be awesome every round.  I don't know if that's why Tequila cares about it, but I've seen it often enough as a motivator.  If I had to play with people like that I'd care about it too.

No, I lie.  I'd quit the fucking hobby.