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How do you make long running campaigns instead of *** of the week?

I found out the best way is to have either have internal conflicts with factions competing for the same resources without being allowed to just kill each other ... or an evil mastermind behind an antagostic faction.

What do you think?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;749212How do you make long running campaigns instead of *** of the week?

I found out the best way is to have either have internal conflicts with factions competing for the same resources without being allowed to just kill each other ... or an evil mastermind behind an antagostic faction.

What do you think?

This can work, for sure. Sometimes, the players themselves make for the consistency of the campaign, in the way they go about their business and select their objectives from week to week, from instance. Or the particular location (think City by Night, Megadungeon, or at a larger scale, the World itself) the campaign is taking place in. It really depends what is the "gravitational pole" of the campaign, if you will. If it's a particular set of characters, then the campaign can crash and burn. Centering the campaign around a precise set of characters can be great fun, no doubt, but my point really is: It's only ONE possibility out of many, as far as tabletop RPGs are concerned. Keep that in mind.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;749212How do you make long running campaigns instead of *** of the week?

I found out the best way is to have either have internal conflicts with factions competing for the same resources without being allowed to just kill each other ... or an evil mastermind behind an antagostic faction.

What do you think?

That sounds like a template for a specific class of circumstances.

What I do is focus on is fleshing out the locale in which the characters will be living. Adding detail to things where the players expressed interest. For example, a player who wants to play a member of the thieves guild and interact with the underworld will cause me to flesh out that aspect of the locale more than I would normally.

From that point what drives the campaign forward is the interaction between the players' goals for their characters and the various NPCs goals. Depending on the circumstance this could involved kingdom wide factions, or a single family of laborers in a tenement.

The players are free to whatever they want as their characters within the limits of their characters abilities and resources. After a few sessions I find player start investing in their character because they start investing in what they built. And have a desire to continue building on. Not just character progression, but the web of allies, material goods, and resources they acquire.

This effect is what gives my campaigns legs.

It does not however work with larger groups as my ability to focus on a single character diminishes as the group gets larger. For those campaigns, I rely on spectacle and pure showmanship.

The heart of the campaign is an interesting locale, like an orc infested forest, the dwarven city under the mountain, a huge sprawling manor house, etc. Along with the a easily understood hook. I use Dwarven Forge, along with deliberately crafting encounters what I know that will be crowd pleasers.

As long as the spectacle continue the campaign will have legs.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;749212How do you make long running campaigns instead of *** of the week?

I found out the best way is to have either have internal conflicts with factions competing for the same resources without being allowed to just kill each other ... or an evil mastermind behind an antagostic faction.

What do you think?

I don't have time to do the Ben-"Megadungeon" thread style answer this deserves.  Because Long campaigns is what I think the most pure outcome of an RPG game is, and is what I do.
 I just put Miston on Hiatus, but that group started playing in 95.  So I'll take a 205 session campaign as long.  My Igbar group, still going very strong, started in 2002 and is stretching for the 160 session mark the first Sunday in June.  Online Steel Isle game went exactly 160 sessions and current Collegium Game (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=26998) has had 17 group sessions and another 31 Intermezzo sessions.

I have a talent and a style for the Long-term game.

That being all said, there are a lot of things...a lot of factors...that go into actually making this work.  What are you thinking in terms of 'Long'?

Quote from: Benoist;749217This can work, for sure. Sometimes, the players themselves make for the consistency of the campaign, in the way they go about their business and select their objectives from week to week, from instance. Or the particular location (think City by Night, Megadungeon, or at a larger scale, the World itself) the campaign is taking place in. It really depends what is the "gravitational pole" of the campaign, if you will. If it's a particular set of characters, then the campaign can crash and burn. Centering the campaign around a precise set of characters can be great fun, no doubt, but my point really is: It's only ONE possibility out of many, as far as tabletop RPGs are concerned. Keep that in mind.

Well, my new wod darkness campaigns become a bit like mystery of the week type of stuff. In the old games longer campaigns are usually about fighting the technocracy or the black spiral dancers. Or it's about political infighting for the same resources without actually being allowed to kill each other. In the new games the political infighting is even bigger with all those factions, but the big bad guys are optional and usually more straightforward to keep everyone in line.

Quote from: LordVreeg;749286I have a talent and a style for the Long-term game.

That being all said, there are a lot of things...a lot of factors...that go into actually making this work.  What are you thinking in terms of 'Long'?

Long is longer than a four or five session adventure. And then running another one without being related to the other one. Long is a few months, half a year, maybe a year.

It's a myth arc, instead of a xyz of the week thing.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;749317It's a myth arc, instead of a xyz of the week thing.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is a TV series term.

TV series create "myth arcs" or "mythologies" by stitching the "mysteries of the week" together.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;749212How do you make long running campaigns instead of *** of the week?

I found out the best way is to have either have internal conflicts with factions competing for the same resources without being allowed to just kill each other ... or an evil mastermind behind an antagostic faction.

What do you think?

Introduce powerful foes or goals early (a lich, dragon hoard, lost dwarven city). Present lower-level organizations/locales that have resources of information needed to locate or equip themselves for the big goal. Give lots of options for how those lower-level organizations can be discovered, negotiated with, or defeated.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;749317Long is longer than a four or five session adventure. And then running another one without being related to the other one. Long is a few months, half a year, maybe a year.

It's a myth arc, instead of a xyz of the week thing.

how often will you play?
how big a setting?  what kind of gameplay and power curve and lethality level?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;749315Well, my new wod darkness campaigns become a bit like mystery of the week type of stuff. In the old games longer campaigns are usually about fighting the technocracy or the black spiral dancers. Or it's about political infighting for the same resources without actually being allowed to kill each other. In the new games the political infighting is even bigger with all those factions, but the big bad guys are optional and usually more straightforward to keep everyone in line.

If you are a member of the City-State getting orders everyday then there going to be a "current mission" that is the focus. Which may wind up feeling like a monster of the week but that how life is when you getting order all the time.

If you have similar circumstances then that why your campaign feels like a strongly like mystery of the week.

Another possible source is that the goals of one or two players dominates the group. In which case again the campaigns can feel episodic because everybody focused on whatever those characters are obsessing about.

I could go on but I will need more information to help you break the episodic feel.

Back to the City Guard premise the key to make it feel more sandbox is to develop the recurring NPCs. Remember the players exist in a specific time and place that has a life of its own. If you keep rolling up generic mooks for each mission it going to feel episodic. But if you start introducing recurring NPCs that change and evolve then it will feel more like a sandbox.

For example suppose in session 3 there is a bust and among other things there are four mooks. Session 5 involves another bust and two of the mooks are recognized. The player ignore it and move on. Then in session 10, one of the mooks reappear again. One of the players take an interest like a cop would if he keeps busting a group of guys over and over again.

Obviously there is only so far in the level of detail you can go with this and keep things sane. But you don't need to add much in order to "flip the switch" on the players sense of immersion.

And generally once the players figure out that the average folks they encounters are "discoverable" they will starting interacting more if for no other reason to secure some type of advantage (or resolution).

Again specifics will require knowledge of the specific circumstances you are dealing with.

Finally the key to all this is too imagine, at each point, as if you are really there. What to you see, importantly who do you see. Why are those people there, what are they are doing. Will they show again. How are they effected by what transpired. Answering those question will propel the campaign forward and make it unfold in a natural way.

Death to preplanned "arc" or "story" or "plot."

I create a world full of cool places and people and things, add player characters, and see what happens.

Quote from: The Butcher;749322Correct me if I'm wrong but this is a TV series term.

TV series create "myth arcs" or "mythologies" by stitching the "mysteries of the week" together.

Yes, indeed. To me a myth arc is the same as an overarching plot. What I have is Supernatural without the war between heaven and hell in my games. When a quest resolves it all goes back to the default situation and starts over again instead of slowly evolving.

Quote from: LordVreeg;749346how often will you play?
how big a setting?  what kind of gameplay and power curve and lethality level?

Just run of the mill world of darkness. Think of one city with several districts and perhaps divided into several neighbourhoods. I don't really like giving a city 20-30 different neighbourhoods, because it's all extra work and it gives more of the same. I usually go for 5-6 districts, covering low, medium and high class residential areas as well as commercial (both office buildings and tourism) and industrial areas.

Those areas all have several buildings, such as clubs, restaurants, abandoned factories, warehouses, penthouses, skyscapers of corporations, city hall, police HQ etc.

Gameplay is pretty low key. The power level isn't as big as in the old wod and it's much more lethal.

Quote from: estar;749381If you are a member of the City-State getting orders everyday then there going to be a "current mission" that is the focus. Which may wind up feeling like a monster of the week but that how life is when you getting order all the time.

If you have similar circumstances then that why your campaign feels like a strongly like mystery of the week.

Yes this is the case.

Quote from: estar;749381Another possible source is that the goals of one or two players dominates the group. In which case again the campaigns can feel episodic because everybody focused on whatever those characters are obsessing about.

No this isn't it.

Quote from: estar;749381I could go on but I will need more information to help you break the episodic feel.

What do you need? Didn't we talk this over before in another topic?

Quote from: estar;749381Back to the City Guard premise the key to make it feel more sandbox is to develop the recurring NPCs. Remember the players exist in a specific time and place that has a life of its own. If you keep rolling up generic mooks for each mission it going to feel episodic. But if you start introducing recurring NPCs that change and evolve then it will feel more like a sandbox.

No there aren't any mooks. These things are pretty uncommon in the world of darkness. It's not "You get out of the village and suddenly there are five orcs. Fight!". WoD never was like that and never will. The city is populated mostly by people who works and live there. You can't go on a killing spree, because 1. Police 2. Your morality takes a nosedive 3. If you are a super, it's all about not drawing attention. They have laws. So police investigation will usually result in your head on a plate.

So what do we do then? Well, there isn't really a big epic conflict going as in the old games. It usually is about internal fighting without being allowed to chop up your opponents. Vampire is all covenant politics for example. I didn't really care much for that, so I went all dark mystery or occult investigation. My players are gumshoes who get assignments. Weird murders with imploded bodies, supernatural drugs who make you predict the future and then die, disappearing subway trains who show up later in an abondoned part of the subway, vampire who flee the city one day in the year and if they stay they never show up again. Stuff like that.

Estar's advice is pretty solid.

I'd like to add that a mission-of-the-week is an easy way to get a long game started with minimal upfront investment. If you just spend some time between games thinking about the consequences of the last mission's final result, you can use that as an opportunity for many further seeds.

Some bandits are in the woods. The players go and defeat them. Great. They get the reward, treasure and XP. Session over.

Now, some bandits got away. What are they doing? Do/did they have a boss? Do they need a new boss?  Who will they join with? Do they want revenge? Or just a better gig? Back in town, who benefitted the most from the bandits defeat? With the bandits out of the way, what are they going to do now? Do they have rivals? How do those rivals feel? Why are they rivals anyway? Do the players have new friends? Because they have new friends do they have new enemies? Who are all these new NPCs ? What else are those friends and putative enemies doing and how do the PC's fit into those agendas? etc.

Lots of speculate from what really could just be a generic wandering monster. Just keep asking yourself questions and the world fills itself in without a lot of effort. And with these details, it's not hard to come up with a bunch of hooks for further adventures.

(caveat:  NOTHING I SAY BELOW SHOULD IMPLY ANY KIND OF PREORDAINED PLOT.  FUCK RAILROADING)

A few things:

1) One option (the traditional D&D one) is to make the game about the world.  Come up with a few factions, and start them up.  The most important thing about any faction, or NPC, or anything isn't it's super kewl powahz, or its backstory, or anything like that.  It's the entity's *drive* - what it is they're trying to accomplish.

2) If you're going for the "main characters in a story" model, you can look at the PC descriptions and lift things there, either directly from any backstory they have, or create foils for them based on their traits.  Those types of foils can either be essentially duplicates, or the opposites - a greedy character can have a 'foil' that's either another greedy character, or a total ascetic.

3) One thing I like to do is look at elements that people like from the "monster of the week" games, and carry them forward.  An evil sorceror that is using vamp blood to create a superserum?  Cool MotW.  If the players really like it, bring it back, and have him be part of a larger conspiracy.  One of the hardest things to do with large-scale campaign planning is figuring out what the players will think is cool - it's a lot easier if you just watch what they're doing and see what gets them excited.

I just throw in a short summary of the two post I had with The Butcher about this subject in case I skipped something.

I asked him how he made campaigns.

He answered "In any case, I feel the best way to avoid "monsters of the week" is to have interesting, long term, mastermind-type antagonists, as well as potentially antagonistic NPCs within the PCs' own faction."

In which I read the Sabbat as a long term antagonist and most other Camarilla NPC's and/or the other Clans as potentially antagonistic NPC within the own faction. Clan politics. In Requiem this is replaced with Covenant politics and your clan doesn't really matter. Which brings us to his next post.

"In our Requiem game, most conflict occurs between members of competing coteries. Sure, there are Lancea Sanctum guys in both our coterie and the bad guys' coterie, but the things that actually creates the conflict is that we (or in our game, the elders pulling our strings) are competing for the same resources. Because of the Traditions, this tends to be very indirect, with both sides sending everything from heavily armed mooks to journalists to hunters against each other."

These are the politics. He uses coterie (party) politics instead of covenant politics.

"VII and Belial's Brood are best used as bogeymen or as clear-cut, horrific anomalies that get everyone to drop their squabbles in the name of a good ol' witch hunt. I have yet to check out the Blood & Smoke chronicle but the Strix look like a promising foe."

And these two groups are the optional bad guys to replace the Sabbat in case you miss that stuff. Every new wod game has a few optional bad guys. Because they aren't incorporated into the game general setting material they always feel very tacked on to me. They did this of course to make it optional. If they included them into the setting background they wouldn't be optional anymore. So I get their choice, but something bugs me the wrong way about it.

Quote from: saskganesh;749443Estar's advice is pretty solid.

I'd like to add that a mission-of-the-week is an easy way to get a long game started with minimal upfront investment. If you just spend some time between games thinking about the consequences of the last mission's final result, you can use that as an opportunity for many further seeds.

Some bandits are in the woods. The players go and defeat them. Great. They get the reward, treasure and XP. Session over.

Now, some bandits got away. What are they doing? Do/did they have a boss? Do they need a new boss?  Who will they join with? Do they want revenge? Or just a better gig? Back in town, who benefitted the most from the bandits defeat? With the bandits out of the way, what are they going to do now? Do they have rivals? How do those rivals feel? Why are they rivals anyway? Do the players have new friends? Because they have new friends do they have new enemies? Who are all these new NPCs ? What else are those friends and putative enemies doing and how do the PC's fit into those agendas? etc.

Lots of speculate from what really could just be a generic wandering monster. Just keep asking yourself questions and the world fills itself in without a lot of effort. And with these details, it's not hard to come up with a bunch of hooks for further adventures.

Yes I could use this. This is pretty sandboxy and it will develop the game further and further.

Quote from: robiswrong;749449(caveat:  NOTHING I SAY BELOW SHOULD IMPLY ANY KIND OF PREORDAINED PLOT.  FUCK RAILROADING)

A few things:

1) One option (the traditional D&D one) is to make the game about the world.  Come up with a few factions, and start them up.  The most important thing about any faction, or NPC, or anything isn't it's super kewl powahz, or its backstory, or anything like that.  It's the entity's *drive* - what it is they're trying to accomplish.

2) If you're going for the "main characters in a story" model, you can look at the PC descriptions and lift things there, either directly from any backstory they have, or create foils for them based on their traits.  Those types of foils can either be essentially duplicates, or the opposites - a greedy character can have a 'foil' that's either another greedy character, or a total ascetic.

3) One thing I like to do is look at elements that people like from the "monster of the week" games, and carry them forward.  An evil sorceror that is using vamp blood to create a superserum?  Cool MotW.  If the players really like it, bring it back, and have him be part of a larger conspiracy.  One of the hardest things to do with large-scale campaign planning is figuring out what the players will think is cool - it's a lot easier if you just watch what they're doing and see what gets them excited.

1. The factions are already there. WoD is very factionalized (is that a word?).
2. Character driven. Yeah I could do that. Sandboxy.
3. This is my best bet. I could make NPC's who are part of a bigger faction. Or make NPC's who are behind the bigger faction. Or both.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;7494541. The factions are already there. WoD is very factionalized (is that a word?).
2. Character driven. Yeah I could do that. Sandboxy.
3. This is my best bet. I could make NPC's who are part of a bigger faction. Or make NPC's who are behind the bigger faction. Or both.

Great.  You've got factions.  Now, what the hell are they trying to accomplish?

Again - factions are like NPCs.  Their history, traits, etc. are all secondary to what they're trying to do - and to a great extent, the more specific, the better.

"Faction A wants to kill Faction B" is boring.  "Faction A is trying to research a ritual that will boil all of Faction B's blood in their veins" is a hell of a lot more interesting, and gives you a *lot* more to work with as a GM.

Also, factions as a whole are kinda boring.  It's the individuals *within* them that are interesting.  "The Gangrel want to kill stuff".  Dull.  "Jim the Wild wants to tear apart everyone who enters 'his' woods" is a bit more interesting.

As an example of "counter-PC characters", apart from the obvious level of "they're hunting me because they're my enemy", let's give a quick example:

You've got a PC that wants to overthrow authority Because Brujah.  You can work with this.

You can have an NPC that also wants to overthrow authority, and acts as a rival.
You can have an NPC that wants to overthrow authority, and acts to show the downside of doing so.
You can have an NPC that represents what *good* can come of authority and organization.
You can have an NPC that represents the bad parts of authority, and acts as a direct opposition.

Any NPC in these categories shouldn't just be a two-dimensional caricature, of course.  But adding these elements can tie the game into what the characters are about.

Quote from: estar;749381If you are a member of the City-State getting orders everyday then there going to be a "current mission" that is the focus. Which may wind up feeling like a monster of the week but that how life is when you getting order all the time.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;749442Yes this is the case.

Then you need to develop recurring secondary characters. While the city is a big place, the players are interacting with a slice of it. Within that slice there are variety of people, some are faction leaders, some are not. But if you want to make a more immersive sandbox then you need to flesh it out from top to bottom. And you need to keep the lives of the NPCs going after the session.

Then it a matter of plotting (i.e. movement plotting) where everybody is in relation to where the PC are at. When they intersect they are part of the encounter regardless whether they are involved in the mission.

The most common mistake with sandbox campaigns involving PCs being part of a mission oriented group is that referee focus only fleshing out what needed to run the mission.

And it common that when thing are fleshed outside of the mission the focus on high level personnel like the leaders and their leuitenants. For a sandbox you need folks down to what I call the "mook" level the ordinary rank and file.

The good news is you don't need to flesh out EVERYBODY for immersion to take hole. A dozen individuals usually does the trick. Look at how much mileage the Marvel Cinematic Universe gets out of a handful of recurring minor characters. (Sitwell, Coulson (later promoted), etc)

For example I went to Pittsburgh (I lives two hour north) on a regular basis to play a Fantasy LARP. My primary interaction with the locals were through the attendees of the LARP events. I also go to Pittsburgh to attend other gaming events, shop at game stores, and comic cons. Occasionally I will see some of the people I met at the LARP. The whole Pittsburgh Gaming scene is a subset of the entire population.  It is probable that I will randomly run into a fellow LARPer at another type of gaming event.

You are running a World of Darkness campaign. That has its own "scene". As different things happen the characters will meet people they have met before even if they are involved with what the PCs are focused on.

This is results in increased opportunities for interacting with the setting. Opportunities that exist concurrently with whatever the main focus is.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;749442No there aren't any mooks. These things are pretty uncommon in the world of darkness.

Every society has "mooks", the type I am talking about are the rank and file of the society that surrounding the World of Darkness. The people with limited focus or influence.

I am not talking about MMORPG style mooks which means weak creature that exist to get beaten up in numbers by more powerful player characters.

Quote from: estar;749563Every society has "mooks", the type I am talking about are the rank and file of the society that surrounding the World of Darkness. The people with limited focus or influence.

I am not talking about MMORPG style mooks which means weak creature that exist to get beaten up in numbers by more powerful player characters.

Ok, my bad.

So a wod city is almost the same as Gotham city, only you gotta downplay the crime/corruption theme (noir). It's there, but not as important. Replace that with the supernatural theme (gothic horror). Basicly swap out crime lords as the powerplayers for supernatural creatures (vamps, werewolves, changelings etc.)

The mooks are the same as in Gotham city. Run of the mill people working and living there. Some have jobs, others don't. Some have a home, others are homeless. So you end up with shopkeepers, beggars, muggers, people with shitty office jobs, police officers, medical personel, junkies, lawyers etc. etc. etc.

Quote from: robiswrong;749483Great.  You've got factions.  Now, what the hell are they trying to accomplish?

Again - factions are like NPCs.  Their history, traits, etc. are all secondary to what they're trying to do - and to a great extent, the more specific, the better.

"Faction A wants to kill Faction B" is boring.  "Faction A is trying to research a ritual that will boil all of Faction B's blood in their veins" is a hell of a lot more interesting, and gives you a *lot* more to work with as a GM.

Also, factions as a whole are kinda boring.  It's the individuals *within* them that are interesting.  "The Gangrel want to kill stuff".  Dull.  "Jim the Wild wants to tear apart everyone who enters 'his' woods" is a bit more interesting.

Ok, maybe I should just give you the factions to be clear what they are about. The way they come out of the box is each with their own ideology, but without clear goals. They are a big vague, which is a new wod trait. You know what I just copy paste them from TVtropes, because I find that site 1. funny and 2. a lot more clearer in explaining things than the White Wolf wiki.

The Covenants: The political parties and/or religions of the Kindred.

The Carthian Movement: Composed mostly by Neonates, the Carthians seek the best form of government for vampires based on mortal social systems which can be anything from strict Representative Republicanism to clan-based tyranny. Ironically, while Invictus-ruled cities generally tend to have the Carthian dissidents be the least amoral vampires in town, the Carthian-ruled cities detailed in the setting so far have all set new world records for going downhill fast. Apparently they make a far better opposition than administration.

The Circle of the Crone: An anthology of faiths and pagan cults that worships a variety of feminine deities incorporated in one entity, creatrix of vampires, the Crone (a.k.a. the Mother of all Monsters) and promote the idea that vampires are perfectly natural (in the way that leeches are natural). They practice the blood sorcery of Crúac that, as a downside, distances them from humanity.

The Invictus: The crème de la crème of Kindred society. Sheer force of meritocracy (Invictus screw-ups do not last long) generally makes them competent administrators, but since the faction has no code of ethics and their attitude towards political maneuvering is Machiavellian, Invictus-ruled territories are classic examples of ''At least the trains run on time."

Lancea Sanctum: Founded by the Roman Centurion Longinus, the Sanctified believe that God cursed them as vampires to unleash His Wrath upon sinners. They can range anything from Catholic (most common) to Jewish and Muslim in pomp and circumstance. Theban Sorcery, their kind of magic, is the invocation of dark miracles upon the world.
Blood and Smoke corrects their name to Lancea et Sanctum, and makes their focus Christian-only.

Ordo Dracul: By studying what it means to be a vampire, using a scientific method blended with occultism, they try to find a way to transcend the curse limitations, such as that little sunlight allergy. The result of such studies are the Coils of the Dragon, powers negate some of their weaknesses. They make heavy use of a student-mentor program.


Usually the Invictus-Carthians are politically against each other aka anarchy vs dictatorship. The Lancea Sanctum-Cirlcle of the Crone are religiously against each other as pagans vs Catholic church. The Ordo Dracul is the wildcard.

Which is all great background.

Now - who are the actual players in the factions?  What are they *actually doing*?

So the Invictus are this super meritocracy with no ethics, and the Lancea Sanctum are kinda religious nuts.  Seems like they don't like each other.  And you've got the Circle of the Crone, which probably don't like the religious nuts. Great.  And horribly static.

How let's say that Phillip is a member of the Lancea, and has been creating a movement to convince many vamps that *all* mortals are sinners, and that they're justified in killing any and all mortals.

This is pissing off Hans of the Invictus, who doesn't really give two shits about the mortals, but knows that indiscriminate slaughter is going to make things *very messy* as the mortal authorities take notice.  Messiness is not efficient, and would reflect badly upon him.

Meanwhile, Diana of the Circle is actually using her influence to convince (through spoooooooky means) Phillip of these things, in hopes that it will discredit the Lancea, because fuck them.  This ostensibly puts her in league with Hans, except the idea that she's willing to cause this much disturbance in order to have her little snit fit would definitely piss him the fuck off.

Now I've taken relatively static factions, injected actual NPCs into them, and given them actual plans and agendas, rather than backstory.

See the difference?

Note that this also asks a lot of questions about what *will* happen in the future...

Will Hans figure out who's starting the murder-binge in the vamps?
Will Phillip or Hans figure out Diana's involvement?
What repercussions will Diana's spell have magically?
Will the mortal authorities start making problems?
Will Hans' superiors start in on his shit for letting things get messy, and what does that mean?
Will Phillip escape the inevitable hunt for his sorry ass?
Will Phillip's movement become strong enough to defy and depose Hans?

Questions like this are awesome.

Quote from: robiswrong;749685Which is all great background.

Now - who are the actual players in the factions?  What are they *actually doing*?

I haven't got this part. But I do know how to get this covered. WoD usually comes with a political web. In a previous topic I came to the conclusion I also (or instead of) need to give the individual NPC's goals and motivations, just as the covenants.

Quote from: robiswrong;749685So the Invictus are this super meritocracy with no ethics, and the Lancea Sanctum are kinda religious nuts.  Seems like they don't like each other.  And you've got the Circle of the Crone, which probably don't like the religious nuts. Great.  And horribly static.

Usually the Invictus sides with the Lancea Sanctum since they are both conservative. The Carthians and the Circle of the Crone are both oppressed. The Carthians usually want an ally, but the Circle of the Crone are really divided and only unite when being in danger. The Ordo Dracul don't care for power and just do their research. So usually it's status quo vs. the Carthians/Cronies or Carthians/Order.

It doesn't have to be this way. The Invictus can side with the Order or a Roman pantheon spin-off Circle of the Crone. The Lance may choose for the Carthians as a partner. But yeah, it is really static. That's my main gripe with this. It is usually very potayto potahto to me.

Quote from: robiswrong;749685How let's say that Phillip is a member of the Lancea, and has been creating a movement to convince many vamps that *all* mortals are sinners, and that they're justified in killing any and all mortals.

This is pissing off Hans of the Invictus, who doesn't really give two shits about the mortals, but knows that indiscriminate slaughter is going to make things *very messy* as the mortal authorities take notice.  Messiness is not efficient, and would reflect badly upon him.

Meanwhile, Diana of the Circle is actually using her influence to convince (through spoooooooky means) Phillip of these things, in hopes that it will discredit the Lancea, because fuck them.  This ostensibly puts her in league with Hans, except the idea that she's willing to cause this much disturbance in order to have her little snit fit would definitely piss him the fuck off.

Now I've taken relatively static factions, injected actual NPCs into them, and given them actual plans and agendas, rather than backstory.

See the difference?

Yes this isn't bad. Better than most stuff I see in the books. There is something like this in the New Orleans setting about three power players. It's about a Catholic Lancea Sanctum Prince who hates Nosferatu and the Circle. There is a Voodoo Circle of the Crone leader who is also a Nosferatu, who betrayed the Prince in the past. Something about a failed spell to lower the Prince's blood potency. Therefor his hatred against nossies and cronies. And there is a Lancea Sanctum Regent of the French Quarter who uses both Catholic and Voodoo faith in his religion. He controls an area that is a so called "the rack" aka it's full of people at night.

Still my biggest gripe remains the static nature of the covenants. I really dislike the fact their relationships are already "set". I much prefer Hunter the Vigil which has 12 factions in the core and 12 factions or more in supplements. Those relations aren't "set". They don't form a society. They just occassionally work together.

Quote from: robiswrong;749685Note that this also asks a lot of questions about what *will* happen in the future...

Will Hans figure out who's starting the murder-binge in the vamps?
Will Phillip or Hans figure out Diana's involvement?
What repercussions will Diana's spell have magically?
Will the mortal authorities start making problems?
Will Hans' superiors start in on his shit for letting things get messy, and what does that mean?
Will Phillip escape the inevitable hunt for his sorry ass?
Will Phillip's movement become strong enough to defy and depose Hans?

Questions like this are awesome.

I totally get you. I think I will use this, but I will also add an outsider faction, which is totally antagonistic. TVtropes again:

Belial's Brood: Infernalists, self-titled the Forsworn, that believe that they should lose all traces of humanity and give themselves over to the Beast.
VII: They engage in terrorist acts against other vampires, and their minds can't be read beyond getting the image of the roman numeral 7. Beyond that, there is no set canonical explanation for who VII are; a variety of options are offered to choose from.

These two are the faction based versions of the Baali clan and the Assamite clan. The Brood are demon worshippers and VII can be multiple things. The VII book (which is really cool) gives three fully fleshed out options. The first two are about ancient grudges. The first makes them assassins from the Middle East (aka Assamites). The second makes them Russian. And the third is about mind control, but that will be a cluster fuck to GM so I won't use that.

Use it if you want, toss it if you want... it was an example I wrote in a few minutes that was really more about taking vague, faceless factions and attaching both faces to them, as well as giving them actual agendas.

I do find that in most cases, you're better off having at least three parties involved in your struggle.  One of them can be the PCs, but having three non-PC factions gives you a lot of possible things to have happening, space for allies, etc.

Keep in mind that a faction's allegiances may be set, but an *individual*'s allegiances aren't.  And factions are ultimately made of individuals.  While it's fine to have "Faction Stereotype 1579" as a nameless mook type character, it's better to have the actual people that are moving stuff around have a little more depth.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;749887There is something like this in the New Orleans setting about three power players. It's about a Catholic Lancea Sanctum Prince who hates Nosferatu and the Circle. There is a Voodoo Circle of the Crone leader who is also a Nosferatu, who betrayed the Prince in the past. Something about a failed spell to lower the Prince's blood potency. Therefor his hatred against nossies and cronies. And there is a Lancea Sanctum Regent of the French Quarter who uses both Catholic and Voodoo faith in his religion. He controls an area that is a so called "the rack" aka it's full of people at night.

And that's an interesting chunk of backstory and setting.  Now, what are they *doing*.  That's the key bit, going forward, and that's what's useful in a campaign.  The backstory is nice for giving you chunks of stuff that exist, but then you need to put it in *motion*.

I agree.
My setting was actually titled, "World of Factions" by an online player years ago.  
Igbar (http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/14955656/Igbar%2C%20Capital%20of%20Trabler#Factions), one of the main play areas, has a decent list of main playable factions, for example...separated so that someone from a traditional RPG background might understand.

"FIGHTING

Archer
Bowyers of Ceminiar -- Martial order of the Ceminiarians
Calling Shot -- Quasi-military group; official martial order
Bristle Clan House Archers--former private guard now also a school

 

Bard
Bertrand's Bard School -- Drummer warriors; very loud and annoying to others; proud.
The Frigid Song -- Warrior Bards from the frozen north
Breath of Truth--Small bardic hall allied with the Church of Belial
Dire Tones-Sage/bards, heavily into chanting.

 

Fighter

Terrors of the Knife -- Assassin/Fighters of Vernidale. As much Assassins as protectors.
Kulranik Swords -- Professional caravan guards, versed in travel and the sword
Hadjel Bonded mercanaries-Teque Guild of Travel's merchants, allied with the Platform of Trade and the Armor of Trade.
Tudzudian Bastards-The Tudzu Caravan Guild's own wide-ranging scouts
Hasturian Swords-The guards of the Winfire trading guild.

 

Kensai/Bard
Martial School of Song -- the "Archers are pansies" guild

 

Martial Arts

Brightblue Limbs -- Martial artists from Xamdu hold
Green Dragon Clan -- Draconian and sly martial artists.
Mysteriarchs of Lathe-Igbar -- Commando-monks from Gwynell

 

Ranger
The Hunters of the Shade -- Verbren's hunters, trackers non-pariel
Cobranic School -- Snake Rangers of the Serpent Queen

 

Ranger/Druid
Defenders of the Land -- of Madrak/Vernidale/Amrist/Ceminiar. 4 different branches.
Defenders of the Land, Vernidale- Ranger's of the Earth Mother
Defender's of the Land, Amrist-Small sect

 

Samurai
Blue turtles -- The honorable enemy of the Red Circle
Unicorn Swords -- consiously multi-gender school of spear users...
Corobar's Iron Way -- By-the Book keepers of peace and bonded warriors to nobility.
The FerrinHold-Knights who guard the poor, grown out of Hallencoon precepts.

 

Warrior/knight
Caleb's Tactical-- Specialized vs humanoids, in small and large scale
Collegium Arcana-Igbar, Order of the Arcanic Swords--The warrior branch of the Collegium.
Lance and Slay -- How to kill on the open plains, great individual horse and bow skills
Order of Stenron -- The largest military order in the North
Order of the White Paladin -- Wear white and like it! Heavily Armored warriors who are used to being outnumbered...and winning.
The Armor of Trade -- The Knights of the Platform of Trade, the Church of Trade.
Matcher's Arm -- The Knighthood of the Hendelics (Bael), mainly mace and maille
Toffler's Defenders -- Marines for the Navy
Trabler Scarlet Pilums -- Military School of Trabler, heavy into cavalry
Tristonian knights -- The knights of John of Triston, Neblerian
Bone Knights of Orcus -- Recently invited to town

 

MAGIC

Alchemical
The Green Flame -- Fire mages, and the eye's alchemical branch
Vasko's Brew -- The blackstripe's poison makers
Kankenbite Surnaste-Pure Makersguild-broken off the Collegium Arcana

 

Mage
Alternative School of Magic --Independent, Irreverent, and in money trouble
Collegium Arcana-Igbar -- The huge, multi national consortium
Collegium Arcana-Igbar. Order of the Kankenbite--The Technocrat order
Collegium Arcana-Igbar, Order of Esdioj--The scrying branch
Red Witches -- Just Outside of Town, blood magic
Shell of Defense -- Igbar militia mages.
Fireblades -- Fire alchemists
The Tower -- Water mages

 

Sage
The Steel Libram-igbar--Ancient seat of learning
Greta's words-Language based school, Much Astrikon knowledge
Anueris Scribes - Finders of Knowledge, very explorer based.
Tuners of the Lute-Scholarly Songsters.

 

THIEVING

 

Assassin
Collegium Tortoris -- old and tiny (and weird)
Holders of the Straight Way -- Belial's Assassins, Ritualistic
Jocien's Knives -- The Blackstripes' warrior arm,
Karin Machinations -- The strong arm of the Eye.
The Scarlet Deductors - The newly formed investigative branch of the Scarlet Pilums
Restitution of Arlieng-The information network of The Sceding Tree

 

 

Thieves
Blackstripes -- Helipolian underworld centered on Coom Isle, in Devens.
Padisha of Pilfering -- independent, real thieves, not political
The Bully Boys -- The dock's underside, local and family-run.
The Eye -- Kasarack's boys, from the huge Stenron-based guild.
Pig the Red -- a small gang out of Tentmeet and the Hill.

 

RELIGION

 

Churches
Church of Weaves, Igbar -- Bamik, weaver god, many Hobbits
Church of Belial the True and Clear -- Belialist believe in Order, and in getting what
Church of Change (Jubilex of Chaos) -- Very social, and Chaotic
Church of Direction -- Arlieng the guide,many sages worship here, contains a Shrine to Oblimet
Platform Of Trade (Ogleic) -- The Trade God, the scales, Mercantile church
Church of Fortune (Ishma) -- Goddess of thieves and the hopeful, lucky Ishma
Church of The Living Earth (Madrak the Mighty) -- Huge, solid and Popular
Church of the Green Mother, Igbar (Vernidale) -- Vernidale, the Green Mother Druidic and neutral
Church of the Autumn Harvest (Amrist) -- very small, Seasons, harvest, From the North
Church of The Hunt (Verbren) -- The warrior arm of nature
Church of the Lawful Triumverate -- Nebler the Defender, Rakastra the judge, Abradaxus the Harsh--very popular
Messianic Church of the Theocracy of Nebler -- Nebler the Shield Many transplants worship here
Church of the Wild Hunt (Geryon) -- Chaotic and wild, The mighty lawlessness of The woods and fields
Church of Hosting (Woerter)- -- Host, and hospitality. The Meeting god

 

Shrines
Shrine of Amerer -- very small, neutral mages and bureaucrats
The Shrine of the Whole (Kiminus) -- Very small, God of Heroes and fools, of the whole person.
Shrine of the Sailor's Rest-Travelers and the weather.
Pastor's Shrine of Knowledge-Small shrine to Saint Renikson of Amerer, Telekonese sage
Hendelic Pawns -Small Shrine of Bael.
Shrine of St. Fredel--Small shrine in the Collar for the Patron of Childen and Childhood (part of the Church of the Living Earth)
Shrine of Mammon of Law.

 

MUNDANE

 

Builders
Jerian Fine Homes--Second generation designers and builders of homes. Specialize in Building in the NighTiche area. Under the Sceding Tree.
Pressit Guild of Constructure--Massive guild of Masons and Builders. Very little goes on without them. Based in the Trio Neighborhod.

 

Cooking
Tolmar's Bakery -- 3rd generation, amazing cakes
Bamik's Soups -- Children of the Weave eat here often

 

Cooking, service
Hostem's Hospitality -- The huge and famous restaurant, 3rd generation. Actual bar is upstairs (the Bowl'), eating halls downstairs.
Fen Tan Teas and Grappa--Harou school of Wastrian food
Parson's Wine and Dine--Omnian food, owned by Phidipiedies.
Saru Butcher's Hall--Meat men of Igbar, a serious school of butchery.
The Upper Crust--Very Well Known and well appointed eatery, with fresh seafood and Rascal Eggs.

 

Government
Ministry of the Unicorn -- School of government.

 

Painting
Goodeval Art school -- From the Stenron branch of painters.
Mosaics by Rentan --frescoes, mosaics,and other lifestyle artworks.
Tara Jeercourt-small school that does hisory of art and teaches the Stenron method.
Rettles Iron Sculpture -- new school of sculpture.

 

Sailing/shipping
Igbar sails! -- Sailing school, youth navy
Sheering Family Yacht Club -- Upper crust wealthy yachters
CrestPath Navigators--Mappers and Navigators, out of the Dockside of Igbar, very cut-throat.
The ShipRaisers Guild-- Dockside Guild based on raising sunken ships, allied with the Tower Mages.
The Blue City Steerage--Winfire Guild-backed Bright Lands outlet for shipping, out of the North Docks.

 

Smith

Collishaw's Ironmongery -- Great place to learn how to mend armor
Terviks Metalworks-Fine metalworking found in the best homes. IN the Hill Neightborhood.
Jorvak the Smith--Orcash smithing, very solid. Does some work for the Scarlet Pilums, in the North Docks.
The Unbroken Sword- Blunt weapons specialist (I know, the name...) based out of BravoTown.
Bedlam Blades-Pioneering the mass creation of metal, out of the Rip-Cut Crucible.

 

Social/Intellectual
House of Twazinia -- Harou hospitality school, old orbic version
Hostele School -- Large private school, mainly dealing with the sciences and trade, for boys 8 to 13. Room for just under 800 students.
Parshan House of Chance -- learn how to lose money like a pro
The Grounds of Dismissal -- Banneti's Coffee House
Capo Sheering Cavortment School -- University for math, science, and the classics. Normally for ages 13-18, mainly male.
The Bortion Mappers--The Bortian Clan of Lestchian started a branch here in 780RON. Based in the Collar.

 

Construction/Fashioning
The WoodenVenture--Specializing in cabinets and dressers. From the Leper's Bastion.
Restival Family Pottery- An extended famil7y work, established in 810RON, potters and makers of ceramics. Out of the Rip Cut Crucible.
Canticle The Carver--A shop of woodcarving in it's 4th generation, on the Street of Carvings in the Rip-Cut Crucible.

 

 

Trade
Wello House of Adornment -- learn the value of everything!
Birchright Quaffers Guild-Brewery Guild out of the Brewers Quarter.
Winfire Trading Consortium -- Old Trading guild, very Large. Trabler Aptor came from this guild.
Sceding Tree -- Traders of commodities, one of the largest
Bren Fashions--Guild of many clothiers. Works under the Vissipee.
Chiller's Coats and Waether Gear--Works under Vissipee, very old and well known.
Chernow's Libations-Dockside importer and distributor of alcholic beverages, under the Winfires.
Teque Guild of Travelers -- Guild Clan specializing in inns, wagons, land travel. allied with Sceding Tree.
Vissipee Trading Guild- Large trading guild, financially strong. Competes with Sceding Tree and Winfire.
Pen-Wiggle Traders-moneychangers and lenders, Compete with Bank of Stenron, recently fighting with Vissipees.
Bank of Stenron-2 branches of the multinational bank.
Sol's Bank of Worth--Small bank and savings institute, 2nd generation, under Vissipees.
Sarku Weavers of Bamik--Blessed rug makers, under the Winfires.
Tudzu's Caravans-Omnian Caravan Guild. Allied with Vissipee in Igbar.
Cheling's Loggers--Guild of loggers and woodcutters, recently added Old Tanik Carving Guild, Allied with WInfires.
Brekham's Wright's--Stone cutters and Builders. Alllied with the Winfire Consortium.
Churaq's Wagons-A klaxik and stunatu management group that moves goods, tied to Vissipee


Like I said at some point or another, I do these for the long haul.  So as Robiswrong metioned, you don't need to spec out everyone, but you do need to have a few people from every group that are 'faces' for it.
Understanding what neighborhoods and geographies different factions are in is as important.
Then consistency is always the handmaiden of verisimilitude.  You need to make sure that these stay consistent, and changes that happen in an area actually affect things.  I had one of my PC 'bases', the Sweet Retreat, which they had apartments rented at for over 6 years of real life play time, get destroyed recently...messily....so the reverberations of that have to be consistent in that neighborhood.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;749212How do you make long running campaigns instead of *** of the week?

I link long-running plots with a series of short goals. The short goals sometimes link into the long-running plots, sometimes don't. Often, they come from the players.

That seems to work well. The players have enough to get on with when they achieve their series of goals, then they uncover the main plots, or join them, or have plots of their own. They work for or against the main plots, or ignore them completely, or devise their own, which then become the main plots.

Quote from: robiswrong;749903Use it if you want, toss it if you want... it was an example I wrote in a few minutes that was really more about taking vague, faceless factions and attaching both faces to them, as well as giving them actual agendas.

I do find that in most cases, you're better off having at least three parties involved in your struggle.  One of them can be the PCs, but having three non-PC factions gives you a lot of possible things to have happening, space for allies, etc.

Keep in mind that a faction's allegiances may be set, but an *individual*'s allegiances aren't.  And factions are ultimately made of individuals.  While it's fine to have "Faction Stereotype 1579" as a nameless mook type character, it's better to have the actual people that are moving stuff around have a little more depth.

I know it was an example. I totally get all of this. I do agree with the last bit. I think you should have group goals and individual goals.

Quote from: robiswrong;749903And that's an interesting chunk of backstory and setting.  Now, what are they *doing*.  That's the key bit, going forward, and that's what's useful in a campaign.  The backstory is nice for giving you chunks of stuff that exist, but then you need to put it in *motion*.

Well, my main gripe with this faction based politics is that nothing really changes. The powers that be change, but fundamentally nothing "big" ever happens. You get a story or plot or myth arc or whatever you might call it. Regimes change and regime change again to their previous situation. In the end it's all just "puss in the corner" to me. I don't find it that interesting.

That's why I liked the earlier settings, because those all had epic conflicts. So I am really looking for something more epic to form my myth arc. I was thinking about using VII as some sort of League of Assassins with seven ancient vampires leading it. They can to a city of the vampires are getting too corrupt for their own good and VII kills them all.

Hmm - you don't want the same old politics and would like a more epic-scope set-up in the background - maybe you could combine the faction intrigue with an epic event?

Have one local faction totally in ruins at the outset--scattered members, their havens desecrated. Members in hiding, or fleeing to other factions. Maybe their destruction could be publicly blamed on VII or Belial's Blood, or whichever "outside antagonist" faction you choose. However, PCs may catch wind of rumors that some other group had a hand in things. Perhaps they were attacked from within--a rogue separatist sect?

This way, you have the political angle, but its not just status quo--something major happened, and that faction won't just bounce back. Everyone else will have to deal with the fallout, and that could set up some more conflict.

Sounds like you want Drive-By Godzilla to spice up your world.

You can have a big force of nature smash somewhere in the world and then filter rumors from survivors. Give a few simple parameters on when and where Godzilla appears, hopefully rarely, and let that program run in the background, fostering more rumors. Then let players decide whether they want to engage that info.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;749990Well, my main gripe with this faction based politics is that nothing really changes. The powers that be change, but fundamentally nothing "big" ever happens. You get a story or plot or myth arc or whatever you might call it. Regimes change and regime change again to their previous situation. In the end it's all just "puss in the corner" to me. I don't find it that interesting.

It should.  If not, it's lame.  If you have somebody's plot going on, then whether it succeeds or is thwarted, there should be significant, noticeable change in the session.  Something's there, or it's not.  Factions rise and fall, or get swallowed up.  New factions rise from the ashes.

In the scenario I wrote above, let's say that the hippie pagan people lose out - the plot gets found, and everyone gangs up on them for being douches.  Their faction should get seriously *pummeled* as a result.  The remaining members go into hiding.  Maybe a new faction rises to take their place, but in a very different way.  I don't know.  But when that scenario resolves, the status quo should not be maintained.

Quote from: Mr. Kent;750008Hmm - you don't want the same old politics and would like a more epic-scope set-up in the background - maybe you could combine the faction intrigue with an epic event?

Have one local faction totally in ruins at the outset--scattered members, their havens desecrated. Members in hiding, or fleeing to other factions. Maybe their destruction could be publicly blamed on VII or Belial's Blood, or whichever "outside antagonist" faction you choose. However, PCs may catch wind of rumors that some other group had a hand in things. Perhaps they were attacked from within--a rogue separatist sect?

This way, you have the political angle, but its not just status quo--something major happened, and that faction won't just bounce back. Everyone else will have to deal with the fallout, and that could set up some more conflict.

Yep, the bigger picture is gone. In the old mage for example you had politics between the different Traditions, but there was also the was between the Traditions and the Technocracy.

Quote from: Opaopajr;750024Sounds like you want Drive-By Godzilla to spice up your world.

You can have a big force of nature smash somewhere in the world and then filter rumors from survivors. Give a few simple parameters on when and where Godzilla appears, hopefully rarely, and let that program run in the background, fostering more rumors. Then let players decide whether they want to engage that info.

Ha, Drive- By Godzilla. Yeah, it could be the big bad. It could also be a force of nature like the Hellfrost in ehh .. Hellfrost or the Siphoning in Lands of Fire. Or the fading of the suns in ehh .. Fading Suns. Any periode with the Age of ... or the War of ... is also a good thing imo.

Quote from: robiswrong;750039It should.  If not, it's lame.  If you have somebody's plot going on, then whether it succeeds or is thwarted, there should be significant, noticeable change in the session.  Something's there, or it's not.  Factions rise and fall, or get swallowed up.  New factions rise from the ashes.

In the scenario I wrote above, let's say that the hippie pagan people lose out - the plot gets found, and everyone gangs up on them for being douches.  Their faction should get seriously *pummeled* as a result.  The remaining members go into hiding.  Maybe a new faction rises to take their place, but in a very different way.  I don't know.  But when that scenario resolves, the status quo should not be maintained.

You picked up on that hippie vibe of the frist core book out of 2004. They actually are more insert your old religion in here. They could be Aztec in Mexico, Celtic in Ireland and Hindu in India. Umbrella splat. In the new book they are more linked to Ireland and Scotland.

Anyway I get what you mean. To me it doesn't really matter who is in control. It's just like our political system. We have a system with multiple political parties who form alliances of two or three different parties. That switches around every four years. Sometimes the christian democrats side with the social democrats sometimes with the conservative liberals. Sometimes the conservative liberals side with the social democrats. Sometimes they need an extra party like the greens or the social liberals. The more things change to more things stay the same.

If I would be playing Fading Suns, I would probably ignore all the splats and their politics. Just not interested. I would run a game where the players are traders or smugglers. Sandboxing that stuff. And eventually let them get mixed up in something bigger like the Symbiot War or something like that. Letting them have multiple smuggle missions which together form a Symbiot myth arc.

In short. There is a big space setting. Ok, I could play that, but I am not particularly interested. Now there is a big space setting where people are fighting a race of shapeshifters right now as we speak. Ok, I am game. I have to play it.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;750059Anyway I get what you mean. To me it doesn't really matter who is in control. It's just like our political system.

Then *make it matter*.  If you don't make it matter who's in control, then there's no stakes up around that, no tension, and no sense of urgency.

Have the ruling faction engage in an extreme version of their ideology.  Make the Invictus go all "papers, please".  Have the Lancea initiate an ideological purge of vampires and mortals alike.

Quote from: robiswrong;750475Then *make it matter*.  If you don't make it matter who's in control, then there's no stakes up around that, no tension, and no sense of urgency.

Have the ruling faction engage in an extreme version of their ideology.  Make the Invictus go all "papers, please".  Have the Lancea initiate an ideological purge of vampires and mortals alike.

Good idea. It matters more this way.

But I was more looking for a world event. Something that directly or indirectly influences the world. The curse of the three sea hags makes 50 Fanthoms much more interesting than a run of the mill pirate setting. There has to be something going on in the world besides just a power struggle in a city. I could play it, but I don't find it that interesting.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;750629Good idea. It matters more this way.

But I was more looking for a world event. Something that directly or indirectly influences the world. The curse of the three sea hags makes 50 Fanthoms much more interesting than a run of the mill pirate setting. There has to be something going on in the world besides just a power struggle in a city. I could play it, but I don't find it that interesting.

Sure.  But even then, I'd argue it's best to start with the impact on the world that the characters care about.

"The Dragon Lord is rising" is fine and dandy.  But in and of itself, it's kind of pointless.  "... and he will bathe your home in flame" puts a little more pressure on the situation.

Quote from: robiswrong;750663Sure.  But even then, I'd argue it's best to start with the impact on the world that the characters care about.

"The Dragon Lord is rising" is fine and dandy.  But in and of itself, it's kind of pointless.  "... and he will bathe your home in flame" puts a little more pressure on the situation.

Well, I try to give an example. You could sandbox a trader in an sf universe. I find it more interesting if that universe is in war. A war with two factions for example. Your pc's could choose sides and be directly involved. Even if they don't they might be indirectly confronted with that war. They might end up in a battlefield, they might discover a ruined city or they might be trading food or medicine, because that got scarce.

If vampire would have a plot of a vampiric plague that creates a different kind of vampires who are competing with the damned or VII starts showing up 300 years ago and cities start going of the grid every few decades or a blood God is summoned who controls Eastern Europe now I would find it more interesting than what it is now. If you are a nerd like me, you have to get excited about stuff like this.

Players live in that world and will face the changing circumstances wether they like it or not. Ok, I just lost my train of thought. Oh got it again. Something has to be going on already when my players enter the setting. I liked Masquerade not because of it's plot dictating what would happen, but because of it's premise. There is already a two front war going on and there are increasing rumors about impending doom.  That gave that setting a feeling of being in motion and increased immersion for me.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;750689Well, I try to give an example. You could sandbox a trader in an sf universe. I find it more interesting if that universe is in war. A war with two factions for example. Your pc's could choose sides and be directly involved. Even if they don't they might be indirectly confronted with that war. They might end up in a battlefield, they might discover a ruined city or they might be trading food or medicine, because that got scarce.

Right, and that's a good way of tying it back to the characters, and what impacts them.  "There's a war going on."  If it never impacts them, the players won't care.

But a war could mean lots of things - certain areas of space may be dangerous now.  The results of war could increase demand for particular supply types in certain areas.  An area being taken over could result in vastly different levels of enforcement which could impact the players, one way or the other.  As you said, a ruined city could exist... but even then, how does that impact characters?  At the very least, there's probably a good amount of salvage there!

Quote from: robiswrong;750733Right, and that's a good way of tying it back to the characters, and what impacts them.  "There's a war going on."  If it never impacts them, the players won't care.

But a war could mean lots of things - certain areas of space may be dangerous now.  The results of war could increase demand for particular supply types in certain areas.  An area being taken over could result in vastly different levels of enforcement which could impact the players, one way or the other.  As you said, a ruined city could exist... but even then, how does that impact characters?  At the very least, there's probably a good amount of salvage there!

Of course it will always need some work to make it effect the players. But at least there is a starting point in the setting to make it have some impact. In the new wod there isn't really a starting point like that. It could be build in, but I will have to do that from scratch. So to me it has always been a static setting. The new vampire edition did include some prefab example settings of a few pages which I found interesting. A city without a Prince for example, because there is some sort of monster killing every Prince. But that is considered a very atypical vampire city.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;750741Of course it will always need some work to make it effect the players. But at least there is a starting point in the setting to make it have some impact.

Yup, I think we're in violent agreement at this point :)

Quote from: jan paparazzi;750741In the new wod there isn't really a starting point like that. It could be build in, but I will have to do that from scratch. So to me it has always been a static setting. The new vampire edition did include some prefab example settings of a few pages which I found interesting. A city without a Prince for example, because there is some sort of monster killing every Prince. But that is considered a very atypical vampire city.

But, again, I have to ask... this impacts the players/PCs *how*?  Why should the PCs go out of their way to do anything about this besides "well it's obviously what the GM prepped"?

That ain't a knock on you, btw.

Quote from: robiswrong;750748Yup, I think we're in violent agreement at this point :)

A starting point for me, I mean. It's where my creative juices start flowing, so to speak. My cool button is pushed.

Quote from: robiswrong;750748But, again, I have to ask... this impacts the players/PCs *how*?  Why should the PCs go out of their way to do anything about this besides "well it's obviously what the GM prepped"?

That ain't a knock on you, btw.

They don't have to do anything about it. They can if they want to. But if they don't it might affect them. They still live in a world where something is happening.

We live in a world of economical crisis at the moment. We can't do anything about it, but it still might affect you in a way. Same thing about globalization or the rise of the internet. All things affecting us in a way.

Back to the war. You gave examples about how it affects the characters. There are just different things to do, than in a peaceful universe or in a pirate filled anarchy.

How do I explain this? I think I just find it more interesting. Some plot. Not as complicated as the old wod clusterfuck. But just a little plot. To get things going. It gives a little direction to a game.


Edit:
To bring this topic back to where it started. I don't find all the faction based politics that interesting. I do like an antagonistic faction interesting to base a plot around. I would let my players run through several missions. Those missions will have one thing in common: the nemesis faction. So it will gradually become a campaign. I found the older wod games more immersive, because the antagonistic factions came with a plot. Now in the newer games those antagonistic factions are still present, but without any plot. They feel a little tacked on to me. I think that's the issue for me.