Quote from: Scooter on September 28, 2023, 07:09:26 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on September 28, 2023, 06:00:20 PM

In those days you had multiple DMs, and multiple games, and you as a player would take your character between them -- these different games would all be canon to your character; what you win in one game you can take along with your character. In a sense they all take place in one overarching world.

.

No, most DMs didn't allow that as power levels and magic items levels were different.  Mostly a DM would edit a PC that came from elsewhere.

Then why didn't Gygax just do that?

Quote from: David Johansen on September 28, 2023, 07:40:04 PM

I guess I'm saying I wouldn't have killed off the character but I might have done the rest of it, I think, maybe.

Gary didn't kill off the character.  I don't know why people on this thread keep saying that.

Quote from: Brad on September 28, 2023, 06:36:16 AM
Anyway, anyone complaining about how Gygax handled this has never actually played/run games with a munchkin/powergamer OR they are in fact that player themselves.

Pfft. No. I've had a raging tall-tale-er and a min/maxxer in my play group. (School chums from back in the day.)

One day the tall-tale-er came to a new campaign with a character he rolled up away from the table. He got straight 18's! We all laughed and I said "If you can roll straight 18's, you can do it again while I'm looking." And then he made a real character and we got on with the game.

Min/maxxers are a bit harder to deal wtih. They usually play honestly, but squeeze the game for every fractional percentage of power. I did appreciate the guy because he was also into the RP aspect, and wasn't an ass about powergaming. Dude put some of my homebrews through the paces. Dealing with that player was where I learned not to try and out-game the powergamer. That just leads to an arms race of tactics and strategy that leaves the other players in the dust. That kind of attitude is best left to the wargames and board games and not an RPG.

I've dealt with my share of powergamers and problem gamers and gamers who have a bad night and act like jackasses. The best reaction is, like I've been saying, act like a flippin adult, tell them what the problem is, and either help them correct it, or have them take a game off.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 28, 2023, 08:57:48 PM

Quote from: Brad on September 28, 2023, 06:36:16 AM
Anyway, anyone complaining about how Gygax handled this has never actually played/run games with a munchkin/powergamer OR they are in fact that player themselves.

Pfft. No. I've had a raging tall-tale-er and a min/maxxer in my play group. (School chums from back in the day.)

One day the tall-tale-er came to a new campaign with a character he rolled up away from the table. He got straight 18's! We all laughed and I said "If you can roll straight 18's, you can do it again while I'm looking." And then he made a real character and we got on with the game.

Min/maxxers are a bit harder to deal wtih. They usually play honestly, but squeeze the game for every fractional percentage of power. I did appreciate the guy because he was also into the RP aspect, and wasn't an ass about powergaming. Dude put some of my homebrews through the paces. Dealing with that player was where I learned not to try and out-game the powergamer. That just leads to an arms race of tactics and strategy that leaves the other players in the dust. That kind of attitude is best left to the wargames and board games and not an RPG.

I've dealt with my share of powergamers and problem gamers and gamers who have a bad night and act like jackasses. The best reaction is, like I've been saying, act like a flippin adult, tell them what the problem is, and either help them correct it, or have them take a game off.

How did you deal with the powergamer instead of arms racing? Did you just tell them to dial it back?

Quote from: David Johansen on September 28, 2023, 07:40:04 PM
I've got mixed feelings about it.  I'd have told the player to level down to seventh for the adventure or make a new seventh level character entirely.  What would he have done if the player had been "competent" or at least really good at using the rules to do things?  As it is, I think he alienated a player and comes off looking a bit like a dick.  That's okay, being a bit of a dick is part of his reputation.  People sitting at his table should be a bit offended if he ain't.  After all, he's Gary Gygax and I'm not.

One of the reasons I love Rolemaster Standard System is that broken characters can die as easily as the next guy.  You really have to treat any threat as potentially life threatening.  I had some players think I was a killer GM because my wife's character took an arrow to the femoral artery this one time and I didn't fudge it.  A friendly necromancer arrived to heal her after the fight, to me that's still a bit fudgy even if the fudge had some strings attatched.  There was also this time a Paladin tried to hunt a moose with a War Mattock and wound up with broken ribs through his lungs.  A kindly druid showed up and healed him but it created a rift in his relationship with the paladin's own patron diety.

I guess I'm saying I wouldn't have killed off the character but I might have done the rest of it, I think, maybe.

The player killed his own character out of sheer stupidity. All Gary did here was hand the player some rope. It was the player who hanged himself. As far as Rolemaster goes, it is hard for playing skill to make as much of a difference when getting killed can happen at the whim of a table at any moment. In a D&D combat, using good tactics and being able to withdraw from a battle when things are not looking so good help with character survival. In Rolemaster the players can use good tactics, be winning the battle and out of the blue a random PC is shot through both ears, killed instantly and earwax removed. Heckin the Rolemaster universe I am surprised that there are any sentient beings on the planet left as deadly as it is to just to go outside. Regular kids would never get old enough to reproduce. Little Timmy was out back playing with the dog. He tried jumping over a small dry creek bed, tripped over an invisible deceased turtle, crushed his skull and died. Poor Timmy. Now I know that classic D&D is very lethal at low levels as well, but at the very least you can generate a new character in 15 minutes and get back in the game.

I don't know what you're talking about, the imaginary deceased turtle isn't even on the moving maneuver table. 

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on September 28, 2023, 08:59:19 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 28, 2023, 08:57:48 PM

Quote from: Brad on September 28, 2023, 06:36:16 AM
Anyway, anyone complaining about how Gygax handled this has never actually played/run games with a munchkin/powergamer OR they are in fact that player themselves.

Pfft. No. I've had a raging tall-tale-er and a min/maxxer in my play group. (School chums from back in the day.)

One day the tall-tale-er came to a new campaign with a character he rolled up away from the table. He got straight 18's! We all laughed and I said "If you can roll straight 18's, you can do it again while I'm looking." And then he made a real character and we got on with the game.

Min/maxxers are a bit harder to deal wtih. They usually play honestly, but squeeze the game for every fractional percentage of power. I did appreciate the guy because he was also into the RP aspect, and wasn't an ass about powergaming. Dude put some of my homebrews through the paces. Dealing with that player was where I learned not to try and out-game the powergamer. That just leads to an arms race of tactics and strategy that leaves the other players in the dust. That kind of attitude is best left to the wargames and board games and not an RPG.

I've dealt with my share of powergamers and problem gamers and gamers who have a bad night and act like jackasses. The best reaction is, like I've been saying, act like a flippin adult, tell them what the problem is, and either help them correct it, or have them take a game off.

How did you deal with the powergamer instead of arms racing? Did you just tell them to dial it back?

He was an ok guy. I could say "This campaign is X and Y, please don't make uber characters that break things." And he would smile and understand, and be good.

But I also like to meet the powergamers halfway. Like having The Mandalorian in a party. The competent character who kicks butt and has the appropriate weapon for every occasion. Give them their victories. It's just a damn game. 

I have absolutely no problem with a min/maxer if they own the whole character.  If they are willing to do so, I'll lean into it.  RPGs are a team game, combat isn't the whole game, and even Green Berets aren't bullet proof.  If you're going to play the tough guy, you're always the tough guy.  You do not get to pull cowardly shit at the expense of your teammates.

I always throw things at the players that are way stronger than the PCs.  (I tell players this before the campaign starts.)  It's up to them to solve the issue.  Diplomacy, retreat, subterfuge, and guile are always encouraged.  This often times means that the min/maxer is the distraction or bait while the rest of the party drops a boulder from the cliff onto the giant's head.  (If they play smart, otherwise they are all just meat flavored jelly.)

Now this post and it's subsequent replies is why I should come here more. Just sitting here trapped at work and this post just BOOM in my mind as in my younger days, I was sometimes that player that the DM asked, are you sure you wanna do that?

Infinitely based Gygax, making redditors seethe years after his passing. 

Quote from: reddit soyjacksnnnnooooo that cheater should have gotten away with it nnnnnnooooo

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 28, 2023, 08:57:48 PM

Quote from: Brad on September 28, 2023, 06:36:16 AM
Anyway, anyone complaining about how Gygax handled this has never actually played/run games with a munchkin/powergamer OR they are in fact that player themselves.

Pfft. No. I've had a raging tall-tale-er and a min/maxxer in my play group. (School chums from back in the day.)

One day the tall-tale-er came to a new campaign with a character he rolled up away from the table. He got straight 18's! We all laughed and I said "If you can roll straight 18's, you can do it again while I'm looking." And then he made a real character and we got on with the game.

Min/maxxers are a bit harder to deal wtih. They usually play honestly, but squeeze the game for every fractional percentage of power. I did appreciate the guy because he was also into the RP aspect, and wasn't an ass about powergaming. Dude put some of my homebrews through the paces. Dealing with that player was where I learned not to try and out-game the powergamer. That just leads to an arms race of tactics and strategy that leaves the other players in the dust. That kind of attitude is best left to the wargames and board games and not an RPG.

I've dealt with my share of powergamers and problem gamers and gamers who have a bad night and act like jackasses. The best reaction is, like I've been saying, act like a flippin adult, tell them what the problem is, and either help them correct it, or have them take a game off.

You're talking about a reasonable person, then. Real Men and Loonies or whatever the hell that thing was...we all know what "munchkins" are and they deserve only death. A dude who games the system a bit but dials it back when asked is probably just someone with system mastery, which is a completely different thing.

Quote from: Brad on October 01, 2023, 08:26:13 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 28, 2023, 08:57:48 PM

Quote from: Brad on September 28, 2023, 06:36:16 AM
Anyway, anyone complaining about how Gygax handled this has never actually played/run games with a munchkin/powergamer OR they are in fact that player themselves.

Pfft. No. I've had a raging tall-tale-er and a min/maxxer in my play group. (School chums from back in the day.)

One day the tall-tale-er came to a new campaign with a character he rolled up away from the table. He got straight 18's! We all laughed and I said "If you can roll straight 18's, you can do it again while I'm looking." And then he made a real character and we got on with the game.

Min/maxxers are a bit harder to deal wtih. They usually play honestly, but squeeze the game for every fractional percentage of power. I did appreciate the guy because he was also into the RP aspect, and wasn't an ass about powergaming. Dude put some of my homebrews through the paces. Dealing with that player was where I learned not to try and out-game the powergamer. That just leads to an arms race of tactics and strategy that leaves the other players in the dust. That kind of attitude is best left to the wargames and board games and not an RPG.

I've dealt with my share of powergamers and problem gamers and gamers who have a bad night and act like jackasses. The best reaction is, like I've been saying, act like a flippin adult, tell them what the problem is, and either help them correct it, or have them take a game off.

You're talking about a reasonable person, then. Real Men and Loonies or whatever the hell that thing was...we all know what "munchkins" are and they deserve only death. A dude who games the system a bit but dials it back when asked is probably just someone with system mastery, which is a completely different thing.

Completely different? They both spring from system mastery. Munchkins are simply system masters without the sense to not be obnoxious about it.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 08:43:53 PM
Completely different? They both spring from system mastery. Munchkins are simply system masters without the sense to not be obnoxious about it.

Nahh, munchkins are vile demons who deserve to be cast into the deepest pit of Hell. Plenty of munchkins have no idea how to actually play the game, and thus cheat their asses off as needed.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 01, 2023, 08:43:53 PM
Completely different? They both spring from system mastery. Munchkins are simply system masters without the sense to not be obnoxious about it.

This is why I like something like C&C.  Nothing the player can really do to "game the system".

Quote from: Brad on October 01, 2023, 08:26:13 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 28, 2023, 08:57:48 PM

Quote from: Brad on September 28, 2023, 06:36:16 AM
Anyway, anyone complaining about how Gygax handled this has never actually played/run games with a munchkin/powergamer OR they are in fact that player themselves.

Pfft. No. I've had a raging tall-tale-er and a min/maxxer in my play group. (School chums from back in the day.)

One day the tall-tale-er came to a new campaign with a character he rolled up away from the table. He got straight 18's! We all laughed and I said "If you can roll straight 18's, you can do it again while I'm looking." And then he made a real character and we got on with the game.

Min/maxxers are a bit harder to deal wtih. They usually play honestly, but squeeze the game for every fractional percentage of power. I did appreciate the guy because he was also into the RP aspect, and wasn't an ass about powergaming. Dude put some of my homebrews through the paces. Dealing with that player was where I learned not to try and out-game the powergamer. That just leads to an arms race of tactics and strategy that leaves the other players in the dust. That kind of attitude is best left to the wargames and board games and not an RPG.

I've dealt with my share of powergamers and problem gamers and gamers who have a bad night and act like jackasses. The best reaction is, like I've been saying, act like a flippin adult, tell them what the problem is, and either help them correct it, or have them take a game off.

You're talking about a reasonable person, then. Real Men and Loonies or whatever the hell that thing was...we all know what "munchkins" are and they deserve only death. A dude who games the system a bit but dials it back when asked is probably just someone with system mastery, which is a completely different thing.

You're thinking of 'Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies, and Munchkins'.

The first three are manageable, though they may derail your game in different (albeit entertaining) ways. The last is someone to be kicked to the curb.