First of all let me share a story from Gygax. This is from Dragon Magazine 314.
[i]
    Self-Destructing PCs: Unearned Levels are the PC's Worst Enemy

    by Gary Gygax

    Many DMs have asked me how I handle characters that are obviously overpowered  "jumped-up" PCs that never really earned  their high abilities and survive by massive hit-point total, super magic, and unearned ease in attacking with sword or spell. To such inquiries, I respond that in recognizing this sort of character I simply play the encounters a bit differently, mainly in the presentation of information, not in "fudging'* of the dice rolls for monsters. Inept players will destroy their characters without having to resort to such methods. Allow me to illustrate this with the following account:

    While at a regional convention in upstate New York, I was asked to run adventures in my campaign's Castle Grey hawk Dungeons. An assembly of players gathered for what was billed a moderate-level excursion. One aggressive young chap came to the table with a 13th-levsI ranger, supposedly his least powerful character. Although the others in the group had PCs of about half that levei and were chary about including the lad with the ranger, I assured them all would work just fine, even with experience division given by shares according to level.

    There followed some initial exploration and minor encounters as the team worked its way down into the dungeon maze. The first real test came when the party came into a large chamber with many pillars and several doors. As the main group discussed what strategy they would follow in this locale, a bold dwarf broke off and opened a nearby door. Rather than telling the player what he saw, I told the players this:

    "The dwarf slams the door. He reels back and comes staggering toward the rest of you, stammering something that sounds like. *G-ga-get back! W-wuh ... Horrible! A bunch of them!" He is obviously fearful and thus incoherent"

    The 13th level ranger hesitated not a moment. Without consulting with his fellows, the character ran to the door that the dwarf had slammed closed and opened it without concern. The four wights that were preparing to exit their lair confronted him, won initiative, and two succeeded in hitting. In the ensuing melee, these undead monsters managed to strike the rapger twice more, so at the end of the battle, the ranger was of a level more commensurate with the others, 9th as it were.

    Much disturbed by that turn of events, bur clearly not chagrined by his rash behavior and the results, the ranger insisted on leading the way. Soon thereafter, they discovered a staircase down, and beside it lay an alcove wherein a great clay pot rested, radiating heat and billowing smoke. The other PCs advised leaving the strange vessel alone, but the ranger determined to attack it. As he did so, all the other characters fled the area. With a single blow the ranger shattered the pot, and thus a really angry fire elemental was freed, ft didn't take long for that monster to finish off the ranger, and thereafter it departed.

    I took the character sheet from the fellow, suggesting that he should be more careful with such potent characters in the future, for surely he had spent a long time gaining 13th level with his now dead ranger PC. He left the table without comment, and the rest of the group went on to several exciting hours of dungeon delving.

    This shows that unearned levels don't translate to playing ability. To the contrary, the power gained often makes the player overconfident. Any able DM can craft adventures that weed out unwise and inept players who think to bulldoze their way through problems by use of undeserved power. That's possible only in computer games where saved games and cheat codes serve to reward such play.[/i]



Now to me, whilst I'm not as harsh as Gygax. I can see this as the RPG equivalent of "chat shit, get banged." as chavs used to say. A player came in with a high level character that they clearly fudged to beat Gary's game. So in the interests of fairness Gary gave this person challenges that a Ranger of that level would easily solve if they actually played up to that level. That player failed those challenges. And was humiliated because of their own stupidity. Not by Gary himself telling him off. But by simply playing the game with the expectations that player gave Gygax due to his high level character. It was just the natural consequences in game for a player's stupidity.

Now let's all make a huge mistake and go on over to Reddit. Specifically r/RPG

https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/16sj06l/looking_for_an_old_article_by_gary_gygax/

The amount of people completely dismissing Gygax's legacy and using this story as proof he was an awful DM is depressing. Lots of the usual words thrown around. "Gatekeeping" "Exclusionary" that kind of thing. It really does show how entitled certain RPG players have gotten. They see the idea of challenge and failing challenge as a personal attack on them. Not their characters As if losing a few levels and handing your sheet to the GM means you can't even play RPGs anymore or the spectre of gross chud neckbeards will materialize to boot you out of the game shop. It's become a huge problem where RPG players just see their characters as avatars of themselves. And thus all consequences on their character are consequences and judgements on them in real life. Absolutely bizarre and foreign behaviour. 

TTRPG players aren't more entitled, MOST PEOPLE are. Just the society we live in.

As usual it devolved into 'Gygax was a terrible person who liked genocide' because Redditors are unable to separate someone using a terrible thing as an example from that person advocating for said terrible thing. Add that to the people that simply didn't understand how D&D was played by Gary and Dave's original groups and you have a recipe for hilarity.

I had someone try to pull a "Just so we are clear here: are you defending Gygax's actions?" on me. Why yes, yes I am.

I have to say though, that I'm starting to get the feeling that things might be swinging back the other way in the realm of public opinion.

Quote from: King Tyranno on September 27, 2023, 09:24:16 AM
First of all let me share a story from Gygax. This is from Dragon Magazine 314.
[i]
    Self-Destructing PCs: Unearned Levels are the PC's Worst Enemy

    by Gary Gygax

    Many DMs have asked me how I handle characters that are obviously overpowered  "jumped-up" PCs that never really earned  their high abilities and survive by massive hit-point total, super magic, and unearned ease in attacking with sword or spell. To such inquiries, I respond that in recognizing this sort of character I simply play the encounters a bit differently, mainly in the presentation of information, not in "fudging'* of the dice rolls for monsters. Inept players will destroy their characters without having to resort to such methods. Allow me to illustrate this with the following account:

    While at a regional convention in upstate New York, I was asked to run adventures in my campaign's Castle Grey hawk Dungeons. An assembly of players gathered for what was billed a moderate-level excursion. One aggressive young chap came to the table with a 13th-levsI ranger, supposedly his least powerful character. Although the others in the group had PCs of about half that levei and were chary about including the lad with the ranger, I assured them all would work just fine, even with experience division given by shares according to level.

    There followed some initial exploration and minor encounters as the team worked its way down into the dungeon maze. The first real test came when the party came into a large chamber with many pillars and several doors. As the main group discussed what strategy they would follow in this locale, a bold dwarf broke off and opened a nearby door. Rather than telling the player what he saw, I told the players this:

    "The dwarf slams the door. He reels back and comes staggering toward the rest of you, stammering something that sounds like. *G-ga-get back! W-wuh ... Horrible! A bunch of them!" He is obviously fearful and thus incoherent"

    The 13th level ranger hesitated not a moment. Without consulting with his fellows, the character ran to the door that the dwarf had slammed closed and opened it without concern. The four wights that were preparing to exit their lair confronted him, won initiative, and two succeeded in hitting. In the ensuing melee, these undead monsters managed to strike the rapger twice more, so at the end of the battle, the ranger was of a level more commensurate with the others, 9th as it were.

    Much disturbed by that turn of events, bur clearly not chagrined by his rash behavior and the results, the ranger insisted on leading the way. Soon thereafter, they discovered a staircase down, and beside it lay an alcove wherein a great clay pot rested, radiating heat and billowing smoke. The other PCs advised leaving the strange vessel alone, but the ranger determined to attack it. As he did so, all the other characters fled the area. With a single blow the ranger shattered the pot, and thus a really angry fire elemental was freed, ft didn't take long for that monster to finish off the ranger, and thereafter it departed.

    I took the character sheet from the fellow, suggesting that he should be more careful with such potent characters in the future, for surely he had spent a long time gaining 13th level with his now dead ranger PC. He left the table without comment, and the rest of the group went on to several exciting hours of dungeon delving.

    This shows that unearned levels don't translate to playing ability. To the contrary, the power gained often makes the player overconfident. Any able DM can craft adventures that weed out unwise and inept players who think to bulldoze their way through problems by use of undeserved power. That's possible only in computer games where saved games and cheat codes serve to reward such play.[/i]



Now to me, whilst I'm not as harsh as Gygax. I can see this as the RPG equivalent of "chat shit, get banged." as chavs used to say. A player came in with a high level character that they clearly fudged to beat Gary's game. So in the interests of fairness Gary gave this person challenges that a Ranger of that level would easily solve if they actually played up to that level. That player failed those challenges. And was humiliated because of their own stupidity. Not by Gary himself telling him off. But by simply playing the game with the expectations that player gave Gygax due to his high level character. It was just the natural consequences in game for a player's stupidity.

While I agree that players should play smart, I think Gary's own examples in that article are kind of dumb. The kind of dumb were it's like: why go adventuring? It's dangerous. The smart move for any adventurer is to stay home and farm gong. There has to be some amount of leniency for players adventuring and sticking their noses into things and generally getting into trouble. Because that's where the fun is at.

QuoteNow let's all make a huge mistake and go on over to Reddit. Specifically r/RPG

Nice try, Gary! 

When I was young, I learned some hard lessons like the player with the 13th level ranger. You just gotta take your lumps and do better next time.

As for Reddit, I just default to assuming that everyone is a teenager, unless they demonstrate otherwise.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 27, 2023, 11:07:25 AM
While I agree that players should play smart, I think Gary's own examples in that article are kind of dumb. The kind of dumb were it's like: why go adventuring? It's dangerous. The smart move for any adventurer is to stay home and farm gong. There has to be some amount of leniency for players adventuring and sticking their noses into things and generally getting into trouble. Because that's where the fun is at.

I don't have a problem with it under the context of Gary clearly knowing the player was basically cheating and breaking an unwritten code of honor in the community. Gary decided to make an example of the guy.

Quote from: shoplifter on September 27, 2023, 11:15:25 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 27, 2023, 11:07:25 AM
While I agree that players should play smart, I think Gary's own examples in that article are kind of dumb. The kind of dumb were it's like: why go adventuring? It's dangerous. The smart move for any adventurer is to stay home and farm gong. There has to be some amount of leniency for players adventuring and sticking their noses into things and generally getting into trouble. Because that's where the fun is at.

I don't have a problem with it under the context of Gary clearly knowing the player was basically cheating and breaking an unwritten code of honor in the community. Gary decided to make an example of the guy.

And even if he wasn't a cheater / Timmy Powergamer type, he was so rock stupid he deserved what he got. Good grief.

Giving someone enough rope to hang himself was a thing long before RPGs.  Doing it in an RPG is a rather benign application of the principle. 

My only question about the story as presented in the OP: Was the dwarf a PC?

Was taking the killed pc's sheet as a trophy the norm? I hope it was... Imagine having a sheet cemetery, separations for the worthy and for the unwise, etc...

It just other gamers on another forum not expecting any negative consequences for their actions as opposed to attacking Gary. He is more of an excuse to attack that kind of DMing style.

Quote from: shoplifter on September 27, 2023, 11:15:25 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 27, 2023, 11:07:25 AM
While I agree that players should play smart, I think Gary's own examples in that article are kind of dumb. The kind of dumb were it's like: why go adventuring? It's dangerous. The smart move for any adventurer is to stay home and farm gong. There has to be some amount of leniency for players adventuring and sticking their noses into things and generally getting into trouble. Because that's where the fun is at.

I don't have a problem with it under the context of Gary clearly knowing the player was basically cheating and breaking an unwritten code of honor in the community. Gary decided to make an example of the guy.

I agree with Ratman_tf, it sounds like this was Gary actively gunning to take down this player, rather than just running the intended adventure. He says he didn't fudge dice rolls - but it seems to me that the encounters were intended to take down the player in question.

If the ranger hadn't been there, what was the party supposed to do about the four wights? In general, if an NPC is scared and runs away from what's inside a dungeon, what should the players do? Is the idea that because the NPC dwarf was scared, the PCs should just back away and not fight what is down there?

Regardless of the ranger's player, how the GM presents things is how the rest of the players understand the world to be. So after the ranger's player dies, what are they going to do if there's a scared NPC?

Quote from: Abraxus on September 27, 2023, 12:03:40 PM
He is more of an excuse to attack that kind of DMing style.

That RPG style is characterized heavilly by principles inherent to the nature of RPG and of 'life' (choices mattering, autonomy therefor responsability for action, you dont control the world and its machinations, etc). It is an indirect attack on reality, also because it is a hierarchization of skills and forms of play. GMless "rpgs" and the like are an externalization of that disregard (and untimately disgust) for order (bc the GM is God, and if God requires some virtue, diminishing your freedom, it is oppressive - that is literally the basis of humanism btw).

Gary did good.  In each case there was sufficient information for the player to make a decision, but the player was dumb and his character paid the price.  In fact in each case there were many things the player could have done to get a positive income, and he chose the only bad one.

The part of the story that jumped out at me more was some of the curious practices of the day.  All of the con games I've played used pre-gens.  And taking a dead character's sheet ... I've never done that even in a home game.

Quote from: King Tyranno on September 27, 2023, 09:24:16 AM
First of all let me share a story from Gygax. This is from Dragon Magazine 314.
[i]
    Self-Destructing PCs: Unearned Levels are the PC's Worst Enemy

    by Gary Gygax

This was my first time reading this article, so that's pretty cool. I've actually had conversations with Gary about how to deal with cheaters, and based on those conversations, this article is 100% what I would have expected from Gary.

QuoteNow to me, whilst I'm not as harsh as Gygax. I can see this as the RPG equivalent of "chat shit, get banged." as chavs used to say. A player came in with a high level character that they clearly fudged to beat Gary's game. So in the interests of fairness Gary gave this person challenges that a Ranger of that level would easily solve if they actually played up to that level. That player failed those challenges. And was humiliated because of their own stupidity. Not by Gary himself telling him off. But by simply playing the game with the expectations that player gave Gygax due to his high level character. It was just the natural consequences in game for a player's stupidity.

Obviously I can't speak for Gary, but my takeaway from the conversations I had with him is not that he's ratcheting up the challenge because he thinks he sees a cheater. And that's not what I'm seeing in this example. If it's a 6th-7th level game, I'm not necessarily reading into this that he decided to up the number of wights to account for the 13th level ranger. It looks to me like it just is what it is. It was an encounter planned for 6th-7th level characters, and the people who earned their levels played more wisely than the guy who didn't.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 27, 2023, 11:07:25 AM
While I agree that players should play smart, I think Gary's own examples in that article are kind of dumb. The kind of dumb were it's like: why go adventuring? It's dangerous. The smart move for any adventurer is to stay home and farm gong. There has to be some amount of leniency for players adventuring and sticking their noses into things and generally getting into trouble. Because that's where the fun is at.

Eh, I don't think that's a fair or accurate assessment.

The proto Leeroy Jenkins dwarf charged through the doors. But the dwarf didn't lose 4 levels. It doesn't sound like Gary even rolled any dice. He just took control of the dwarf for a moment, had him step out, and give the party a warning. This not only showed the dwarf's player leniency, it also gave the party fair warning. So when the Ranger went through the door after being fairly warned, he had it coming to him.

In Gary's later modules, he including notes on these sorts of leniency considerations. In Hall of Many Panes, he used the example of a barbarian acting brashly, and the dwarf in this example sounds exactly like what he was writing about.