Quote from: SHARK;1079144Greetings!

Well, my friend, what was aweful about 2E FR? I'm not up on the precise framework of what they did in 4E--but from what I saw that WOTC did to the FR world, the North or whatever being scrubbed, whole cities and regions gone, apparently it was a mess. Did you like the "Spell Plague" thing, S'mon? I'm not familiar with 4E, but the changes I saw to the campaign there as a whole were just terrible! LOL. Really, though. What did you like--or since you still use the 4E cosmology--what do you like about it, S'mon? Explain how it is an improvement over the 3E version of FR, which I am more familiar with.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

2e FR - thinking of the Time of Troubles, the bowdlerisation, removal of demons/devils/assassins/half-orcs, et al.

I think the North/Savage Frontier/Western Heartlands region has been pretty much unchanged through all editions. They scrubbed various fringe countries, but these never got a mention IMC anyway, and I basically never used any Spellplague stuff, so for my game the 5e 'reversion' looks exactly like my version of 4e FR.

Re cosmology, 4e FR assumes the 'World Axis' cosmology of default 4e, as far as I can tell - at any rate, that's what I used. Not that it came up much. The ultimate fate of most souls is unknown - a small minority are snagged by their patron gods for use as divine servants, at least for a while, but most pass through the Shadowfell & Kelemvor's Hall to an unknown fate. No Wall of the Faithless is mentioned in 4e FR, I don't think it officially exists.

I'm not that familiar with 3e FR, and until 4e I had never been able to successfully run an FR campaign, so I can't really comment on that. I definitely found the largely blank-slate 4e FR a lot easier to run than previous versions, though I did more recently run a short AD&D/OSRIC PBP set in the 1e FR era. My 4e FR was determinedly non-canon, and to make that clear it includes Hallomak Stromm, Savant-Sage of Waterdeep, as a deliberate satire on Elminster & Greenwood. Early in the campaign Hallomak attended the funeral in Shadowdale of an old sage.

"When powerful human wizards get into their second century or so - the skein of their lives drawn thin 'like butter stretched over too much bread' as someone wise once said - they often start going mad, and are soon claiming to be gods, immortals, five-thousand years old Netherese Archmages, et al. 'Tis sad, but inevitable." - from The Ruminations of Hallomak Stromm, chapter XVII of 'Hallomak Stromm: The Man, The Legend', 1st edition 1480 DR, Waterdeep Press.

Quote from: SHARK;1079136As to Liberal sensibilities, yeah, the whole monsters are misunderstood thing, but also a liberalism creeping into every aspect of the game. There are many liberal ideas in FR cosmology, and the whole game, in the sense that there is a more liberalized viewpoint expressed, as opposed to a viewpoint more informed by a traditional, conservative religious viewpoint. Then, there's the whole traditional conservative approaches to the game world, like player characters, races, and so on, that held sway for decades, but now are being thrown out and discarded by the SJW's. It's a gradual influence, lots of little things, that gradually add up over time to *colour* the game campaign differently.

Like supposed "paladins" being able to be whatever alignment the player wants them to be.

That's just SJW heresy, my friend! HERESY!!!:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I have always been a big proponent of keeping the Paladin as Lawful Good.  I see that Pathfinder 2 is going to be keeping the Paladin as LG while opening up the class as a Champion which seems like a win win solution.

I always get a good laugh out of the people wringing their hands about misunderstood Orcs and how Drow are really just Fantasy Black people because look at them they are black.

Quote from: Shasarak;1079262I have always been a big proponent of keeping the Paladin as Lawful Good.  I see that Pathfinder 2 is going to be keeping the Paladin as LG while opening up the class as a Champion which seems like a win win solution.

I always get a good laugh out of the people wringing their hands about misunderstood Orcs and how Drow are really just Fantasy Black people because look at them they are black.

I'll chime in here, in 5e, with it 'Any Alignment Paladins', that only fits to certain of the Paths, the Devotional one is clearly meant to be Lawful Good.  Most of the tenants are the traditional AD&D 2e system.  Some others, can fit with other alignments.

I will always disagree with anyone who thinks that Paladins can be Chaotic, mind you.  The Path of a Paladin is one of belief in in something, (other than a God, especially in the Realms) like a code of conduct, principles, rules or something greater, that requires a belief in structure, something a Lawful X is mentally designed for, and a Neutral X can fit into, but the free spirited Chaos X simply do not have the drive to strive to a belief, good or bad.

I'll disagree, but I won't stop people from having Chaotic Paladins in their games.  I don't have the right to dictate how anyone plays their game.

Quote from: SharkI like the gods to be *divine*--not merely powerful mortals with more makeup on.

Poor clueless sod. Any planar worth their salt knows such a thing doesn't exist. Ask the floating corpse in the astral where it's "divinity" is.

Quote from: S'mon;10791452e FR - thinking of the Time of Troubles, the bowdlerisation, removal of demons/devils/assassins/half-orcs, et al.

I think the North/Savage Frontier/Western Heartlands region has been pretty much unchanged through all editions. They scrubbed various fringe countries, but these never got a mention IMC anyway, and I basically never used any Spellplague stuff, so for my game the 5e 'reversion' looks exactly like my version of 4e FR.

Re cosmology, 4e FR assumes the 'World Axis' cosmology of default 4e, as far as I can tell - at any rate, that's what I used. Not that it came up much. The ultimate fate of most souls is unknown - a small minority are snagged by their patron gods for use as divine servants, at least for a while, but most pass through the Shadowfell & Kelemvor's Hall to an unknown fate. No Wall of the Faithless is mentioned in 4e FR, I don't think it officially exists.

I'm not that familiar with 3e FR, and until 4e I had never been able to successfully run an FR campaign, so I can't really comment on that. I definitely found the largely blank-slate 4e FR a lot easier to run than previous versions, though I did more recently run a short AD&D/OSRIC PBP set in the 1e FR era. My 4e FR was determinedly non-canon, and to make that clear it includes Hallomak Stromm, Savant-Sage of Waterdeep, as a deliberate satire on Elminster & Greenwood. Early in the campaign Hallomak attended the funeral in Shadowdale of an old sage.

"When powerful human wizards get into their second century or so - the skein of their lives drawn thin 'like butter stretched over too much bread' as someone wise once said - they often start going mad, and are soon claiming to be gods, immortals, five-thousand years old Netherese Archmages, et al. 'Tis sad, but inevitable." - from The Ruminations of Hallomak Stromm, chapter XVII of 'Hallomak Stromm: The Man, The Legend', 1st edition 1480 DR, Waterdeep Press.

Greetings!

Hallomak Stromm sounds fucking awesome, S'mon! LOL!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1079847Greetings!

Hallomak Stromm sounds fucking awesome, S'mon! LOL!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

He's a legend in his own lunchtime!

Along the whole of the Sword Coast, from Baldur's Gate to Neverwinter, there is no greater explorer, Sage, or fighter against Demons and Devils than Hallomak Stromm!" - From chapter I of Hallomak Stromm: The Man, The Legend. By Hallomak Stromm.

Look for the Hallomak Septology in all good Waterdhavian bookshops -"Hallomak: The Making of a Sage", "Hallomak in Hell", "Return of Hallomak", "Hallomak Dawn" "The Seven Archmage Girlfriends of Hallomak", etc.

Quote from: S'mon;1079865He's a legend in his own lunchtime!

Along the whole of the Sword Coast, from Baldur's Gate to Neverwinter, there is no greater explorer, Sage, or fighter against Demons and Devils than Hallomak Stromm!" - From chapter I of Hallomak Stromm: The Man, The Legend. By Hallomak Stromm.

Look for the Hallomak Septology in all good Waterdhavian bookshops -"Hallomak: The Making of a Sage", "Hallomak in Hell", "Return of Hallomak", "Hallomak Dawn" "The Seven Archmage Girlfriends of Hallomak", etc.

Greetings!

LOL! Great stuff, S'mon! You know, that reminds me. I remember chomping on FR "The Grey Box"--and Elminster was this cool, interesting, heroic and wise mage. Someone that was an appropriate and intriguing patron, mentor, and friend for the player characters to meet, and become friends with.

Then, there was that book where Elminster is fucking not one, not two, but *Seven* uber hot divine demi-goddess sorceresses, that all just happened to also be sisters.

Geesus, you know? When did Elminster go from being the cool, interesting mage living in some medieval backwater on the fringe of nowhere, to the center of a continent-spanning sexfest and soap-opera?

Even back then, I wasn't impressed. Beyond the Crystal Shard, Moonsheas, and early Drizz't books, I thought most of what poured out after that was increasingly pathetic garbage. Somehow, Elminster got mutated into some uber-jackass that seemed to always be dividing his time between fucking all of these demi-goddesses and sweeping in to save whoever in some fucking novel.

Just a sad evolution of a character that seemed initially to have very solid medievalesque and heroic foundations.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK;1079880Then, there was that book where Elminster is fucking not one, not two, but *Seven* uber hot divine demi-goddess sorceresses, that all just happened to also be sisters.

Geesus, you know? When did Elminster go from being the cool, interesting mage living in some medieval backwater on the fringe of nowhere, to the center of a continent-spanning sexfest and soap-opera?

Whats the point of spending years pouring over dusty manuscripts to master magic if you can not use the power to bang hot chicks?

Greetings!

It does seem like FR was steadily cluster-fucked as time went on with new supplements. The sourcebooks and adventures continued to be written under the shade of all that was going on with the myriad NPC's introduced throughout the FR novels, increasingly making the published adventures revolve around what the celebrity NPC's were doing. Elminster is an especially egregious example of this process, but there were many more.

While many players and fans of FR came to hate this dynamic, it seemed to create an entire "bubble-world" which served to create distance between the game world, and the players. That sort of constant dissonance wasn't a good thing for the ongoing development of the game world. You also see a process where the FR deities are increasingly involved in mortal affairs directly, through many novels. While on one hand being something of a nod towards Greek mythological stories, I'm not convinced that such an implementation in FR was a very beneficial move.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK