Has anyone here played dnd or similar extensively with the PCs at max level? What was it like?

I mentioned this in another thread not that long ago, but I played a D&D campaign one summer that went to 36th level then Immortal. That was a great game and lots of fun...at the highest levels it was a lot of world shaping adventuring, directly challenging some gods from destroying the Hollow World, keeping Thyatis and Alphatia from invading each other, and all sorts of similarly mega-scope stuff. We used Rules Cyclopedia and Wrath of the Immortals and some of the gazetteers; I think that's why the game was fun. D&D (RC specifically) with all the assumed background materials accommodates high level gaming extremely well, it doesn't feel forced or out of place. Highest level I ever played AD&D to with legitimate characters was about 12th, and by then we were just battling demons and stuff before the game ended. Always felt like the DM was just trying to find stuff for us to fight and it never really worked that well. That was a somewhat generic gaming environment, though. The sweet spot for AD&D for me is 3rd -7th, after that it just sort of breaks down. Also played D&D 3rd to 15th in Forgotten Realms and that...hmmm, sucked isn't a strong enough word for it. Even being super high level, we never really felt like the actions of our PCs amounted to much whatsoever.

I guess it really depends on the game world more than anything as to how much fun high level play really is.

Rules Cyclopedia at 20+? Sounds totally doable!

Last 3.x/PF campaign I ran for about 5-years ended around 20th-21st lvl. It basically killed my love for d20 in retrospect. Stat-blocs for my NPC's were like 4-pages long. Combat was incredibly tedious. The work I had to do to deal with the 3.x system issues at post-15th lvl were truly mindboggling. We still talk about it today (my current Savage Worlds campaign is set 130-years after that 3.x campaign with the full intention we'll be playing to those same power-levels on this new chassis), and it bewilders us that we got that far to a satisfied completion.

The aftermath of it definitely took its toll on me. When 5e came out - I ran it quite a bit... but I couldn't get the taste of the 3.x scourge out of my mouth. 5e is *not* 3e, but there's enough of it to give me a negative reaction each and every time I run it.

I've run 17th-20th-lvl with 1e/2e and it worked great, there are some bumps. All solvable.

If I had to choose - I'd like to test Rules Cyclopedia like Brad did, or I'd go 1e/2e hybrid second.

Quote from: S'mon;1074983Has anyone here played dnd or similar extensively with the PCs at max level? What was it like?

I've played a few Tier 4 DDAL games (4-hour modules) over the past year or so. It's certainly doable, but the sheer ability of the characters to bend time and space clearly makes writing adventures very hard. Honestly even at Tier 3, there's enough tools out there to really break some kinds of encounters.

OTOH, because DDAL structure means that the people playing at L17-20 have actually played their characters from L1, there isn't as much analysis paralysis as you would think.

But neither is there the possibly-expected tsunami of cool either.

That might change in a fuller campaign of course, not really done that yet (my Storm King's Thunder campaign ended around L15)


I think the sweet spots remain L3-4 and L6-8.



I did play BECMI to around L25, but it wasn't a good system for that kind of play. The playing of a Master-level game in a 5e Mystara conversion would get me very interested though.

Never.  Closest I came was running a few one-shot games of AD&D or RC in the mid-teens, and a game of 3E that went to level 15.  Much like tenbones, the latter experience is what sent me running and screaming from 3E entirely.  If I'd toughed it out until level 20 in that campaign, I might have burnt out on D&D entirely.

I built my current 5E campaign world to support play up to 20.  Players have wanted to try it for some time.  Highest we've hit so far is 9th level.

20 x more painful than playing at level 1.

So, no playing with level-capped PCs, then?

I asked because it looks like several PCs in my 5e Runelords campaign will be at 20th level long before the end of the campaign. It doesn't look as if challenging them will be an issue - I'm more wondering how the heck they'll ever have a chance with Karzoug, but I'm sure they'll surprise me ...somehow.... I hope.

Greetings!

Good Morning, my friend! Well, yes, I have extensive experience in running D&D at maximum levels. For years, I DM'd more than one high-level D&D campaign set in the World of Thandor. The player characters were all above 20th level. Of course, they all began at level 1, and advanced from there.

The party really got going once they completed the Night Below Campaign. The party by that time included several nobles--from the Vallorean Empire, as well as from the Elven Kingdom of Rhaethillian. The party was quite powerful, being strongly equipped with magical armour, weaponry, and other items, and formidable wealth. The party really entered an entirely different *world* of the campaign at that point.

One of the most southern provinces of the Vallorean Empire, Harthan, was across the Dragon Sea, and was the heartland of the ancient Harthu Empire, which had been conquered by the Valloreans in centuries past. Harthan was close to the Kingdom of Narmedia, a powerful kingdom that is an ally and friend of Vallorea. The capital city of Harthan is the city of Harthu. Long ago, the city of Harthu was besieged, and destroyed. Eventually, the Valloreans rebuilt the great city, and the city of Harthu prospered, becoming again, an enormous city of great wealth, and a prominent center of trade throughout the western waters of the Dragon Sea. The city of Harthu was endangered by a group of rebels, supported and financed by the Kingdom of Nybari, which was located in a vast rainforest further to the south-west. Nybari also brought in the black Kingdom of Zebadu, and instigated assassinations and rebellions in the black Kingdom of Narmedia. There were large invasions of both the Kingdom of Narmedia, and of the province of Harthan. The invaders had large groups of demons, cults of snake women, as well as armies supported by giant elephants, triceratops, and Tyrannosaurus Rex's. The party headed up a Vallorean army of 150,000 legionnaires, and proceeded to embrace a savage war that lasted for 6 years of game time. There were numerous forays into ancient jungle temples, subterranean fortress cities of ancient, reptilian sorcerer kings, weird technology, lots of dinosaurs, and several cults of snake women, assassins, and demonic witches.

The group was involved in putting down an incursion of Fire Giants, and several clans of dragons, west of the Province of Harthan, in the Province of Ghandu. What initially started out as occasional raids by fire giants, expanded to fighting a strange war, often conducted deep underground in vast subterranean realms, ruled by the Theocracy of the Shimmering Flame, a fanatical religious empire ruled by a clan of red dragons. The Theocracy of the Shimmering Flame also controlled powerful fortress-cities located in the large group of the Chornom Islands, which were further to the west of the Province of Ghandu, in the Margon Sea. Thus, there were fierce sea raids and marine invasions of black Argallian warriors--half demon, and half lion-men. The Argallian City States proceeded to launch great naval battles against the Vallorean and allied forces throughout the region. There were epic campaigns at sea, on the surface in border regions of Ghandu, eventually also including raids and amphibious invasions of the Chornom Islands, and the Argallian City States. Then, there were raids and counter-strikes into the dragon-cities in the subterranean lands, deep beneath the surface of the earth. Part of the Province of Ghandu is very mountainous, so there were also hidden mountain fortresses of fire giants that had to be dealt with as well. Deep beneath the surface, in a huge lake of molten lava, the group led a series of invasions against the City of Dhumagga. Dhumagga had several lairs of red dragons, elite fire giants, evil reptilian salamanders, Argallians, humans, and the Ghaldim--gold skinned, evil dwarves that had blood of molten lead. Capturing the majestic Gold Foundry of Dhumagga was epic for the party.

The group then proceeded to heed the call to the northern frontiers of the Vallorean Empire, where the party became involved with fighting against a great barbarian invasion of the northern frontier by a confederation of powerful barbarian tribes of humans--the Charesci, Halvar, Sarben, Demnu, and the Vaarku. The barbarian tribes were also mixed with large numbers of ogres, trolls, and frost giants. The northern barbarians included cults of Pagan shamans and witches, as well as numerous groups of powerful werewolves, and half-dragons. During these many adventures, the group encountered a series of mysterious elven ruins in the ancient forest. Eventually, the group unlocked an enchanted gate that opened up a stunning elven city that had been locked away in a mystical forest realm for the last 5,000 years. The group was able to return the great elven city of Maladan to the mortal realms in the present day. The Maladan Elves aided the group, and the Valloreans, in defeating the confederation of barbarian tribes, attempting to invade the Vallorean Empire. After defeating a variety of evil factions, the group assisted hundreds of thousands of human barbarians to migrate into the Vallorean Empire peacefully, and set up several border kingdoms allied with the Vallorean Empire. Then, the group coordinated a refounding of the city and kingdom of Maladan, further to the north, beyond the borders of the Vallorean Empire.

The group became involved with defending the Vallorean Empire from a huge invasion by vast armies of undead, lead by the Shadow King, Mallenar, the great Vampire Lord. That proceeded to develop into a great series of adventures, gradually throwing the undead forces out of Vallorea, and then spearheading an epic invasion of the Kingdom of Galleran, which was ruled by the Vampire Lord Mallenar, the Shadow King. That invasion involved over 500,000 Vallorean legionnaires, and hordes of powerful creatures, dragons, giants, all kinds of things. Conquests of vast, strange lands that were full of not just undead, but hordes of mutant humans, savage beastmen, and terrifying monsters. Epic diseases swept through cities, tens of thousands of people were mutated, vicious assaults were made over numerous cities and strange, ungodly towns where physics and natural laws were but a distant memory. The group organized armies, led special missions, assisted in the migration of several hundred thousand wolf-humanoids into the areas, so as to help the Valloreans; alliances with good-aligned tribes of ogres, and making the ogres citizens of the Vallorean Empire; coordinating the migration and settlement of some 200,000 hippo-humanoids into a vast marsh region in the southern part of the Kingdom of Galleran. Lots of politics, seduction, assassinations, rebellions, secret raids, betrayals, espionage, and alliances between families, tribes, and peoples. The group also became involved in organizing new towns, trade agreements, and negotiating a wide range of political treaties, civil rights, education and community programs.

Well, that is kind of an overview. There were also weddings, marriages, having kiddies, and handling politics and family drama as well. The party were often dealing with controlling millions of gold pieces, vast treasuries, powerful armies of 50,000 to 500,000 soldiers, making heroic, desperate defensive operations, fierce assaults during conquests, smaller unit infiltrations and special missions, investigating treason, rebellions, various plots and schemes, court trials of evil witches, public relations campaigns, propaganda efforts, coordinating romances, and more.

The dynamics of high-level campaigns change the party, and the party proceeds to change the environment. Magical artifacts are sponsored and created, armies are led, battles are fought, romances and relationships of themselves, their henchmen and allies, and eventually their own children, all become increasingly prominent. The group still participates in group adventures, even "dungeon-crawling"--though oftentimes, while the group is always hungry for more treasure, more magic--the rewards of such efforts typically embrace not merely "treasure"--but political goals, relationship goals, important tribal, social, religious or ethnic goals and achievements, as well as building larger social and political relationships between groups and governments. The group also becomes far more involved with investigating wonders and mysteries of the campaign world, and developing deeper understanding of the region's history, politics, and peoples.

High-Level campaigns are awesome, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Thanks SHARK - cool stuff, takes me back to the early 21st century on ENW!

I think it's interesting that you made high level 3e work by raising the campaign scale to one where the PCs could have an impact, but not easily kerbstomp everything - most fantasy settings are too small scale and low power to accommodate such PCs; it became very obvious in my Pathfinder Crimson Throne game, where by about 10th-12th level nothing in the adventure could challenge them.

You used uncapped 3e levelling, yes? Official Epic rules or your own?

For my 5e games I stick to level 20 maximum, but use the Epic Boons, bonus Feats, and stat boosts. High level 5e PCs are cool, eg lone barbarian beating a CR 25 demigod of war (just - actually still bbn-19 at the time) and a CR 21 ancient black dragon (easily), but they definitely never feel 'out of control' the way I saw in 3e/PF.

Quote from: S'mon;1074983Has anyone here played dnd or similar extensively with the PCs at max level? What was it like?

My introduction to the hobby was back in the mid 1990's, with AD&D 1E Homebrew.  It got to crazy high level stuff.  One PC was level 26, and had established his own domain.  Another was being worshipped by the peons.  I had a split personality: one of which was a Dragon; and the other was a large, heavy drinking, brawler type that killed Thor and took his hammer.  He never did return and insist upon a rematch, but I was expecting him to do so at any time.

It was a ridiculous, no holds barred, kick down the door and whip some ass kind of gaming group.

Quote from: S'mon;1075072Thanks SHARK - cool stuff, takes me back to the early 21st century on ENW!

I think it's interesting that you made high level 3e work by raising the campaign scale to one where the PCs could have an impact, but not easily kerbstomp everything - most fantasy settings are too small scale and low power to accommodate such PCs; it became very obvious in my Pathfinder Crimson Throne game, where by about 10th-12th level nothing in the adventure could challenge them.

You used uncapped 3e levelling, yes? Official Epic rules or your own?

For my 5e games I stick to level 20 maximum, but use the Epic Boons, bonus Feats, and stat boosts. High level 5e PCs are cool, eg lone barbarian beating a CR 25 demigod of war (just - actually still bbn-19 at the time) and a CR 21 ancient black dragon (easily), but they definitely never feel 'out of control' the way I saw in 3e/PF.

LOL!! It does indeed, doesn't it? Well, don't get me wrong--I think grubby, dirty medieval settings have their place, but on the other hand, who wants to play a poor, drooling peasant all the time? The D&D game offers heroic fantasy--so, embrace it! Philosophically, in some ways, I go back to when I was a kid, playing D&D with my friends. My best friend, and DM at the time, used to tell me, "The +5 Vorpal swords are there for a reason. They are cool shit you should have some opportunity to get your hands on. They are fun for the player, as well as the DM. What purpose is all of this cool shit in the DMG treasure tables, if not to hand out to valiant players, and NPC's? When I'm a player, I want bitchin' weapons and artifacts for my character. When I'm DM, I know that you really want cool treasure too, so I find ways to make it happen. Awesome magic doodads is an essential part of the game. No one gives a fuck about some dumb +1 sword, you know?" I have never forgotten that, to this day. So, going forward, I'm never bothered or alarmed by the players having ungodly powerful weapons; +7 Flaming Swords of Righteous Judgement; Talking armour that regenerates wounds; Shields that have animal heads, and summon creatures to defend you, and so on. Whatever crazy things are in the book, or things that I create myself. As an aside--my players sometimes don't like it--but NPC's, as well as enemy characters--I am free to lavish wondrous weaponry and goodies onto them, as well. I think getting this kind of open-minded, creative, fearless attitude down, embracing a truly "Epic" sensibility for the campaign, also serves to inspire the players, not only with such rewards, but also, strangely, it propels them to become more emotionally involved in the campaign. They love nothing better than helping people and their friends with using their uber weapons and goodies, and they also deeply LOVE dropping the smackdown on their enemies with their uber weapons. I especially like having them captured, imprisoned, whatehaveyou--where their goodies are taken from them, and they are beaten, laughed at, and humiliated mercilessly. Watch the evil gleam they get in their eyes...their voices even change..when they somehow get free, crawl out of the sewer dungeon, and get their favourite sword back, or their uber wizard staff! Then, it's ON, you know? All of the players love this. Oh, you think you're ending the session after 8 hours? HAH! No, they will insist that we keep playing, damnit! LOL. Yeah, I've had 6 people at 10pm sit there and tell me, "No, no, SHARK. Fuck that. The game can't end, brother. We can play till fucking dawn! We all have *business* that needs to be finished! Have a cigar, get back in your DM throne, man." I kid you not. LOL. Yeah, all of these things can really drive your players crazy, and get their commitment level sky high.

With raising the campaign scale, I admit--it can be scary, and intimidating. But you must be fearless! Embrace the Insanity! You have to allow yourself to be creative, and bold. You would not believe all of the epic artifacts and stuff the party had. They were all *Christmas Trees* by that level, you know? Having said that, magic items are a key part of it. The next part, is raising the scale of the campaign, by throwing the doors open to all that other treasure. Sacks full of walnut-sized rubies! Wagons full of sparkling, gold coins! Chests full of jeweled, magical toys! Conan always had fortunes come and go, after all. Let the players be filthy rich. Let them have hundreds of thousands of gold, and vast fortunes. You can easily take it all away if it somehow becomes annoying, or needful for some campaign reason. Watch what players do when they find out the gang of half-elf witches have allied with a band of bugbears, and have interrupted or taken over a player's silver mine. Or watch how some enemy noble passes laws or some political BS that threatens their businesses or other fortunes and wealth! LOL! EVIL LAUGH! The players will get very nasty, very ruthless. Far beyond you may have ever expected possible. LOL. Pure joy seeing this stuff. The players, again, get even more emotionally invested in the campaign.

Part of the essentials required are thinking like a kid. Connecting with that child-like awe of the fantastic, and the heroic. Even as an adult, thinking about the majestic stories of our myths, our ancient heroes. There's a reason these kinds of stories have been passed down through the centuries. Consider various ethics and morality lessons, played out in the campaign, in some form of story. The players love all of that, too. They get inspired, and they often become zealous, and strangely, take on the traits and attitudes of their character. Over and over again, I have seen them all become very emotional and passionate about their characters, their feeling, their motivations, and the people around them that are important or significant in some way. It becomes very meaningful to them, in a powerful way. Being inspired like this, I have found it helpful to leave fear and old, timid conventions behind. Expand the world. Get out of the stupid little village. Conan didn't stay in some dumb village, and Bilbo and Frodo alike leftthe damned Shire to go off to see the wide, wondrous world! Have epic, enormous armies! Make god-awful, glittering cities that just boggle the mind. Keep much of it somewhat quasi realistic, but be ready and willing to add a bucketful of Blazing oh my god, what is that? Vast fortresses, majestic cities, beautiful, wondrous lands of ripe fruit, shimmering waters, and wondrous animals. Don't forget the little details, you know? Opening up the whole landscape for epic adventure, gets the players into more, again, as well, but also by embracing such, your campaign scale grows tremendously. Now suddenly, your world is so epic in scale, so rich, and deep in mysteries, glory, and the fantastic--that the players, even when they are badass uber heroes--they remain small, and manageable. This is a balance, I know, but fearlessly grabbing onto it, has set my campaigns free. I am the DM. The world is fantastic, and I am in control. And the players can jump in, and discover wonder and glory. Who knows where the adventures will lead?

All of that also informs me on the monsters and NPC's. There's always creatures and people out there that can whoop your ass, no matter how awesome you think you are. Having the players run into tough, powerful and ruthless bastards that can really wreck their day keeps them on their toes, and humble. Those are specific threats. Even more generalized though, can be brutally effective. Dumb trolls getting laughed at by your players? Have 25 trolls armoured in Morgul plate and trained in the legions somewhere. The players will view trolls in an entirely different light, I assure you. The same principle of being open and crazy with the monsters, works for all of them, and any of them. Make the monsters stronger, higher level, give them new, weird powers, or triple their numbers. Or have a platoon or regiment of them, and have them fight smarter, with better tactics and awareness. Use the terrain against the players. Or make a vast horde of them. Add a pinch of this, and a spoonful of that. It's like cooking, and preparing a fine meal.

With player power level in mind, a freed sense about magic, treasure, and monsters, all of that forms a foundation for a different view of land, environment, and geopolitics. I have found it essential to again, leave the sleepy village idea behind. Have huge, ancient forests, vast deserts, majestic mountain ranges. Enormous lands to be conquered and plundered. Let the possibilities grow, you know? This change of scale also affects the politics of the campaign. There's room to grow, and discover! Let your players become the elite nobles--and for one, the emperor! Or the High King of Horseland. Or the Queen of the White Forest. Yes, the players can get married, have sex, romances, and kids. They have family alliances, and people looking to them for leadership, and inspiration. They have whole populations looking to THEM to lead, and make a difference. The players then go nuts, as they are now way over their heads in a fantastic, awe-inspiring world. It's always such fun to see how they go about ruling a kingdom, dealing with different domestic factions, meeting foreign challenges, wars and problems; allies and different environmental and climate challenges too. Game of Thrones is not new. Watch how a female player acts when her character's daughter wants to date the badboy noble, or some loser but terribly handsome mercenary!!!!! LOL!

All of these elements are things that I have found useful, and essential, in running an epic, heroic campaign of high levels.

Yes, I had uncapped levelling. Some of them were way over 20th level! HAH! I used the Official Epic rules, with a few additional rules and tables and tweaks. I used the epic rules, the demon and devil books, the undead books, the abominations books, divine creatures, dragon books, giants. I had room and some use for a wide range of stuff, as you can see. I blended it all together very carefully.

You know, it's funny you mention kerbstomping. Even at uber high levels--the players always know they have their limitations. I have found it to be greatly successful and entertaining, on many different levels, to really think about epic fantasy, epic heroism. Let the world embrace it, and allow the players to embrace it. The freedom of ideas and fearlessly embracing the fantastic allows for a truly inspiring campaign world.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: S'mon;1074983Has anyone here played dnd or similar extensively with the PCs at max level? What was it like?

Our Pathfinder games end up there pretty regularly.

You end up with hour-long rounds and single-encounter days. It takes awhile for complex characters to resolve their turns and the PCs have enough tools that there is very little logical reason to force them into a serious fight without being completely rested.

I personally think 5e really breaks down at 10+ without custom/homebrew/3rd party monsters. Which it seems like you have, so maybe the PCs won't destroy everything. (Multiclassing and feats will just make the PCs stronger)

This is a source of frustration with me at some of my more recent gaming tables, with campaigns that fall apart once the party achieves competence, but I do have a pair of characters in palladium's heroes unlimited that 'capped out' at level 15 and continued on in active play.  They are the party's engineer/operator and medic, so good support for other more battle minded team members.

Caveat though is that first level characters in a supers game can often be on par with very high level characters in other systems right out of the gate, and their level of power doesnt grow as much as a result of the level gain, so the high levels and low levels play very similar.  One of the reasons I prefer supers gaming is I like running powerful characters and agonize over the slog through the rat killing stage of most tabletop games.  I've been playing too long to enjoy the rat killing phase.  With campaigns falling apart at the drop of a hat, its good to hit the powerband early.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1075174I personally think 5e really breaks down at 10+ without custom/homebrew/3rd party monsters. Which it seems like you have

Rise of the Runelords stuff converts over very scary to 5e (or is statted scary in eg Tome of Beasts or Primeval Thule, for the Cthuloid stuff). But even with core monsters, a squad of giants is a big threat. Recently my son's BBn-19 (now 20) flying dragonborn Shieldbiter attacked 3 fire giants he saw attacking a fortress, thinking his AC 24, 260+ hp and Rage damage resistance would keep him safe. One round of ass-thumping later and he was flying away with tail between his legs.

Quote from: S'mon;1075232Rise of the Runelords stuff converts over very scary to 5e (or is statted scary in eg Tome of Beasts or Primeval Thule, for the Cthuloid stuff). But even with core monsters, a squad of giants is a big threat. Recently my son's BBn-19 (now 20) flying dragonborn Shieldbiter attacked 3 fire giants he saw attacking a fortress, thinking his AC 24, 260+ hp and Rage damage resistance would keep him safe. One round of ass-thumping later and he was flying away with tail between his legs.

Greetings!

EXACTLY, S'MON!!! That's the spirit, my friend! I'm not quite sure when, or how it became fashionable for the DM to be, well, lazy, and passive. Allowing the PC's to Curbstomp everything in their path, and essentially, as many DM's have lamented, overthrow the game, and make the campaign "Boring." Of course, I'm not saying that going merely "by the book"--that an impression of weakness and pervasive doom for the DM doesn't suggest itself. However, even from the very beginning, Gygax encouraged us--especially the DM--to dive into the system, dive into the world, *our world*--be creative, and never allow the PC's to run the show. Change encounters. Add and modify existing monsters. Create new monsters. You always got the sense of a *somewhat* adversarial relationship between in the DM and the PC's--I've always seen that in the spirit of the DM maintaining control of the world, being creative and dynamic. It is a foundational credo that I have lived by in DMing my campaigns from the beginning. I'm also a big fan of the DM just making creature "X" have whatever powers, defenses, and abilities I want them to have. I do not need to justify it, explain it, or have it ennumeated by whatever written rules, anywhere.

Level 25 Orc Champion King that has regeneration, and breathes fire? Yep. I do that. Sorcerer villains that slice open some kind of sparkling gateway, allowing them to step through the mystical curtain to make an escape at the last moment? LOL. Yeah, that can happen, as well. The possibilities are endless. The rules are particular for the *players*. My hordes of evil champions, mythical monsters, wicked snake women, savage vampire lords, ancient dragons, amongst others--are under no such constraints! (Evil laugh!)

Giants are great villains, too!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK