All this yapyap about that Satine 'gamer personality/influencer/WTFE' (Honestly never heard of her till very recently, but I'm not into the big D or WW) and the fact she's mostly famous for doing porn and claiming she's big into gaming just got me to wondering about PCs who are partly or mostly 'sex workers'. (Prostitutes would be an acceptable term, but 'whore' in really negative, I reserve that for corrupt politicians mostly.)
I'm sure WW has gone there, but find it unlikely DnD has. Still, I wondered what games have had sex worker character types available and how they dealt with them. Just gamer curiousity. I could see some traveller games at least hinting at it.
As I think on it I see that sex workers could have potential. Fuedal Japan had geisha spies and assassins, after all. In occupied France more than a few Nazis were hustled off to hell by a 'poisoned tart.'
Nah, I don't think I'd play one, in fact I know I wouldnt. But all this yipyap about a 'gamer personality ' who seems to be mostly known for fucking for money just started buzzing around in my synapses until I had to ask about it to shut it up.
I can't bring myself to look but I have this feeling someone will post a link to a WW game called 'Whore, the spreading' or something... ::)
Good god, rule 34 gets everything, doesn't it?
This old article might be relevant: https://web.archive.org/web/20080223003826/http://www.rpg.net/oracle/essays/censor.html
Okay. Grim Jim's "Machinations of the Space Princes" has a Sex Bot class. It's not in the main game, but is available as an add-on. Have not looked at it, so I cannot comment on its qualities.
Modiphius' "Kult: Divinity Lost" most definitely has this in spades, but it's more up to you how it works. The Deceiver archetype includes concepts like Escorts and Porn Stars. The Doll archetype also includes Escorts and Sex Trafficking Victims. The Fixer archetype could be a Pimp, or a Porn producer/director. And so on. Sex (including non-consensual) is very much embedded in the insanity of the Kult setting... BUT it's not necessarily required in the setting, as anything really can be the breach point between worlds. There are more specific sex skill/advantage rules here than in other games. However, Kult casts a very wide net as far as gaming goes. It's not just about the sex and the pornstar, although it can be.
Free League's "Coriolis: The Third Horizon" includes Courtesans under the Artist archetype. There are the sex priests/priestesses in Ahlam's Temple. (Think: Companions in the Firefly universe, which then applies to any Firefly RPG as well.) Sex rules? Not really there like Kult. It's more the seductive aspects of Ahlam's priesthood, or the courtesan in general.
Going back to antiquity... "Tribe 8" from Dream Pod 9 includes the Tribe of Magdalen ("the Lover"). They are the decadent hedonists of the 7 tribes. If the tribes exist using barter, Magdalites use sex as their primary currency. It's how they achieve political power as well. Again, the rules are not explicit. They just are. It's not meant to be an explicit sex game.
Now, for more weird stuff...
Grim Jim's Postmortem Studios has the "Courtesans" game (about roleplaying courtesans in historical England, mostly intended for the Georgian & perhaps the Regency periods) as well as "Doxy" (which would be the street trash gutter whores & doxies, mostly set in Georgian England). If you don't want to play a whore (or a higher class Courtesan), then don't play these games at all.
"Courtesans" is quite interesting, and very much researched. There's a lot of history there. Courtesans have a very significant place in English history, especially as a means for women of limited birth to achieve fame & fortune.
And... I'm sure there's more, but this is a pretty long list as it is.
SPI's Dragon Quest had a Courtesan skill with special abilities like being welcome everywhere from the lowest dive to the king's castle.
Rolemaster School Of Hard Knocks had an Escort training package.
It seems prostitute would be a fairly apt cyberpunk archetype.
I don't play much Cyberpunk stuff, but that's an area where it seems they go out of their way to avoid talking about sex work... escorts, whores, prostitutes, strippers. That mostly doesn't exist in the "gritty" world of Cyberpunk. LOL.
It is pretty remarkable how sex-less some worlds are. For the most part, you don't need sex in a game. Some games, however, go out of their way to AVOID any mention of sex at all. It's bizarre.
The "Spire" RPG by Rowan, Rook and Decard, for example. The game involves the Drow. Not just Dark Elves, but Drow. And they are entirely sexless. No slaves, no sex workers, nothing of the sort. Puritanical Drow. Amazing.
Okay, there are some kind of sex workers, but they're arena gladiators or super ninja assassin gladiators (and maybe they make DEATH BY SNU SNU, but there's no mention of sex anywhere in there).
The entire game is very spotty about commerce, in general. Commerce doesn't exist (and the reason for sex work is commerce. A world without commerce? Of course there is no sex work). The game is just about an ILLEGAL OCCUPATION by the High Elves. And REVOLUTION. (And the revolution is a kind, gentle, bloodless revolution because you're the good guys and you can't revolt by destroying things... unlike actual insurgent movements or actual revolutions.) Progressive Ace Drow wankery (if Aces can do that at all).
It's just such a weird setting. Asexual Drow in a bloodless, Puritanical revolution. I just can't like it. It's like the Lawful Stupid of Drow.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 04, 2022, 03:44:45 PM
All this yapyap about that Satine 'gamer personality/influencer/WTFE' (Honestly never heard of her till very recently, but I'm not into the big D or WW) and the fact she's mostly famous for doing porn and claiming she's big into gaming just got me to wondering about PCs who are partly or mostly 'sex workers'. (Prostitutes would be an acceptable term, but 'whore' in really negative, I reserve that for corrupt politicians mostly.)
I'm sure WW has gone there, but find it unlikely DnD has. Still, I wondered what games have had sex worker character types available and how they dealt with them. Just gamer curiousity. I could see some traveller games at least hinting at it.
As I think on it I see that sex workers could have potential. Fuedal Japan had geisha spies and assassins, after all. In occupied France more than a few Nazis were hustled off to hell by a 'poisoned tart.'
Nah, I don't think I'd play one, in fact I know I wouldnt. But all this yipyap about a 'gamer personality ' who seems to be mostly known for fucking for money just started buzzing around in my synapses until I had to ask about it to shut it up.
I can't bring myself to look but I have this feeling someone will post a link to a WW game called 'Whore, the spreading' or something... ::)
Good god, rule 34 gets everything, doesn't it?
You really don't know shit, do you?
For Cepheus Engine by Michael Brown, Career: Sex Worker
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/271693/Career-Sex-Worker?manufacturers_id=9030
For MegaTraveller by hemdian.com, Courtesans
https://hemdian.com/traveller/book1/courtesans/
For Mongoose Traveller 1e Book 8 Dilettante under Aristocrat: Paramour and several iterations in Classic Traveller Apocrypha.
A sex worker as an NPC can be an invaluable source for adventure seeds. They can be victims of crime, sources of rumors, patron encounters, or manipulators of nobles/politicians. As PCs, a sex worker can range from a belter brothel worker a la The Expanse to a high class Ccompanion a la Firefly/Serenity. Not to mention, the fact that sex workers are not just a profession but also people with all the possibilities therein. If you can't think of adventure ideas for a sex worker, then you should hang up your GM's hat.
It should be noted that prostitution is not illegal in every country of this world and in a science fiction setting, that can be applied to all worlds.
I've played a limited number of rpg fields, I don't get the 'hot new thing everyone gets' because I like what I like, not what 'everyone' likes. I don't go for games that are based on shock for shocks sake.
It was interesting to see how many games at least touched on this topic. It's been mentioned in a few wh40k products, a major character had a close companion who was a former prostitute. Oddly enough they loved each other despite the face he and she could never do it.
In another story there was a prostitute who turned out to be a genestealer hybrid. If you know shit about 40k you know that was a real ''EEEEYYYYYYEEEEEEEWWWWW!!! '' moment.
Out if curiousiy I looked at jeffy's reply, which confirmed my wisdom is not reading his shitposts, but was slightly surprised to see traveller games had them. I like traveller as an idea and a setting, not in love with the oldd school rules.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 04, 2022, 08:16:48 PM
I've played a limited number of rpg fields, I don't get the 'hot new thing everyone gets' because I like what I like, not what 'everyone' likes. I don't go for games that are based on shock for shocks sake.
It was interesting to see how many games at least touched on this topic. It's been mentioned in a few wh40k products, a major character had a close companion who was a former prostitute. Oddly enough they loved each other despite the face he and she could never do it.
In another story there was a prostitute who turned out to be a genestealer hybrid. If you know shit about 40k you know that was a real ''EEEEYYYYYYEEEEEEEWWWWW!!! '' moment.
Out if curiousiy I looked at jeffy's reply, which confirmed my wisdom is not reading his shitposts, but was slightly surprised to see traveller games had them. I like traveller as an idea and a setting, not in love with the oldd school rules.
Nice to know that I am living rent free inside your head.....
Your statement, "Oddly enough they loved each other despite the face he and she could never do it." tells me that you don't know the difference between eros and philia. Not surprising, really. Just another example of your shallow thinking.
Quote from: David Johansen on July 04, 2022, 07:18:12 PM
It seems prostitute would be a fairly apt cyberpunk archetype.
Good ol' Mr. Studd!
Quote from: Thornhammer on July 04, 2022, 11:08:58 PM
Quote from: David Johansen on July 04, 2022, 07:18:12 PM
It seems prostitute would be a fairly apt cyberpunk archetype.
Good ol' Mr. Studd!
That and the Midnight Lady mod led straight to
Cybergeneration!
Quote from: bromides on July 04, 2022, 07:40:07 PM
I don't play much Cyberpunk stuff, but that's an area where it seems they go out of their way to avoid talking about sex work... escorts, whores, prostitutes, strippers. That mostly doesn't exist in the "gritty" world of Cyberpunk. LOL.
While Shadowrun is more technofantasy than Cyberpunk I recall there being in the world description (page 42 in Shadowrun 5) mentioning that prostitution being legal in 99.998% of the known world.
Being or having been a prostitute is no more special than being a bus driver. Probably less so on account of the poor history of the US when it comes to public transport.
No big deal. It's not as if you're going into explicit detail in the game.
Fantastic playing a prostitute if you're a Vampire. A limitless supply of simp blood.
Other instances where prostitution is mentioned in various rpgs I've encountered is in Golarion the goddess Calistria in particular having "sacred prostitutes" while there is also a few other goddesses whos clergy practices it as well.
Seeing as Calistria is the also the favored deity of assassins, they're about as close you can come to the trope of "Hooker Ninja" I guess.
Pathfinder being a DnD derivate its probably as close you can get to "sex workers in a DnD game" in the current climate. I wonder how that managed to slip by the SJWs.
Just about any game that has a (profession) skill for PCs to earn money between adventures can be said to have rules for prostitution if that is what the player wishes to write down on that line.
In the same vein GURPS have a list of professions for the players to earn money by and I'm pretty sure I've seen different variations of prostitutes across different social levels and TLs in all kinds of settings.
As actual character classes/archetypes for players to pick, the Saloon Girl template exists in various games about the Wild west like Deadlands (1st ed) and swedish rpg Western 4th ed
In my opinion, wanting to play a sex worker is running right up to the line of 'magical realm' fetish bullshit.
But hey, do what you want in your campaign.
Never said I wanted to play one, shithead. It does open up some possibilities tho. Blackmail, getting a dna sample, covertly getting something out of a guys pocket or wallet, etc.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 05, 2022, 08:29:11 AM
In my opinion, wanting to play a sex worker is running right up to the line of 'magical realm' fetish bullshit.
Uh... Only if you wanted to get into that squicky detail and most normal human beings wouldn't want to.
AD&D 1e included sex workers in some of their random tables (don't recall which book had them, but I've seen people post them a bunch of times). I'm pretty sure "courtesans" got mentioned in a couple of 2e supplements, including the Complete Ninja's Handbook, which I'm sure it mentioned Geishas, including a Courtesan ninja kit, IIRC. May have come up in other books I can't remember now.
I've sort of gone there a few times, but don't think I ever played a dedicated prostitute character (may have made a few courtesan types at various points, but never got around playing them), more like slutty PCs with implicit sex work periods in their backstories before their adventuring days.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 05, 2022, 09:08:56 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 05, 2022, 08:29:11 AM
In my opinion, wanting to play a sex worker is running right up to the line of 'magical realm' fetish bullshit.
Uh... Only if you wanted to get into that squicky detail and most normal human beings wouldn't want to.
First time on the Internet?
In all seriousness, playing that sort of profession, even sans squick detail, makes my eyebrows rise as a GM. As a background, I could tolerate it if it was something in the character's past, but as a 'current gig'? Yeah, my antennae start twitching.
Probably handle the details with a few rolls. Maybe a seduction skill roll vs targets willpower roll. Bonus if she'd been briefed on his tastes.
As to how long, maybe more rolls, possibly a physical roll for the target to determine how long he lasts.
Honestly, hiring sex workers to seduce people happens all the time. The kgb did it with female and male agents. Ask Clayton Lonetree among others. It is a tested method in real life.
As to gaming, i'm not big on it, but again after looking up that satine woman and seeing a sex worker get into the gaming biz (personally i wouldn't bet she knows her dex from her wis) it just made me curious.
Even before AD&D, Judges Guild drifted into this area of play around 1975 or so. My memory may be faulty, but I think...
(1) The CSIO had tables for random whore creation. Hair color, body dimensions, that sort of thing.
(2) I think one of the old JG magazines had a "houri" class or some such. I'd have to hunt for details.
The Dragon issue #3 article Notes on Women & Magic outlining experimental rules for female PC classes, much of which of which focused on seduction abilities. Also, White Dwarf #13 had the Houri class.
In some ways any Dune RPG would have something like this, as the Bene Gesserit did a lot of gene manipulation and characters like Lady Jessica were "bound concubines." It wouldn't surprise me at all if Traveller had something of the sort, as a lot of folks used Traveller to play Dune campaigns back in the day.
During D&D 3E there were a number of third party supplements that introduced (no pun intended) sex of every kind into D&D. The ones I remind were "The Book of Erotic Fantasy" (which I have and it is quite good), "The Book of Unlawful Carnal Knowledge", "Encyclopaedia Arcane: Nymphology" and "The Quintessential Temptress". I haven't read the other books so I can't comment, but at the time they didn't make a big splash.
One thing that "The Book of Erotic Fantasy" does right from the very beginning is asking "What is the rating of your campaign? G, PG, PG 13, R or XXX?" and then proceeds to give examples of what you can or can't do regarding love and sex. I guess that you can have a PG 13 sex worker as long as the sex happens "between scenes".
Truth is, in a campaign 13 years long, I had two characters having sex with NPCs (implicit) and a character falling in love with a NPC (it was a female player playing a male elf, and she declared that her character had fallen in love with a female NPC played by me - so wokeist should be happy ;D) In my experience, it is amazing how my players never cared about such things (I had a tragic love story in GURPS Cyberpunk - tragic because two characters fell in love and both were killed the very next session while trying to help each other during a re-enactment of the opening of "Escape from New York (https://youtu.be/wuyWkNK0-yo?t=116)"). Of course other groups mileage may vary.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 05, 2022, 11:06:40 AM
Probably handle the details with a few rolls. Maybe a seduction skill roll vs targets willpower roll. Bonus if she'd been briefed on his tastes.
As to how long, maybe more rolls, possibly a physical roll for the target to determine how long he lasts.
Honestly, hiring sex workers to seduce people happens all the time. The kgb did it with female and male agents. Ask Clayton Lonetree among others. It is a tested method in real life.
As to gaming, i'm not big on it, but again after looking up that satine woman and seeing a sex worker get into the gaming biz (personally i wouldn't bet she knows her dex from her wis) it just made me curious.
You don't role-play with people, do you?
You don't handle the details with a few rolls. If the player wants seduction, let them role-play the seduction. Roll to succeed or fail modified by the role-play. If it moves into physical intimacy, then just fade to black. As GM, you are in control and can say "NO!" to someone trying to push their erotic fantasy into your game.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 05, 2022, 11:05:41 AM
In all seriousness, playing that sort of profession, even sans squick detail, makes my eyebrows rise as a GM. As a background, I could tolerate it if it was something in the character's past, but as a 'current gig'? Yeah, my antennae start twitching.
Hm... Yeah, actually sounds like you might not be playing with very mature people in that case.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 05, 2022, 11:49:58 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 05, 2022, 11:05:41 AM
In all seriousness, playing that sort of profession, even sans squick detail, makes my eyebrows rise as a GM. As a background, I could tolerate it if it was something in the character's past, but as a 'current gig'? Yeah, my antennae start twitching.
Hm... Yeah, actually sounds like you might not be playing with very mature people in that case.
Or maybe I'm just naturally suspicious.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 05, 2022, 12:15:54 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 05, 2022, 11:49:58 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 05, 2022, 11:05:41 AM
In all seriousness, playing that sort of profession, even sans squick detail, makes my eyebrows rise as a GM. As a background, I could tolerate it if it was something in the character's past, but as a 'current gig'? Yeah, my antennae start twitching.
Hm... Yeah, actually sounds like you might not be playing with very mature people in that case.
Or maybe I'm just naturally suspicious.
Admittedly, there is a type of player encountered in public play whose enjoyment comes from pissing everyone at the table off. In cases where they become sexually creepy with their character , you just kick them out of the game right then and there. No problem.
I'd suggest one problem with playing a character who engages in sex work is the same problem of playing any character with job or time commitments not immediately relevant to the adventuring situation: letting anything unimportant pull time and focus away from the PCs and their adventure is ultimately a net negative.
I've cited this before, but a parallel example for me was always the process of blood hunting for vampires in Vampire, in any iteration thereof. Unless you could figure out a way to make a specific hunt involve things critical to the adventure, the basic titillation factor (and that applies to more dimensions than the merely prurient here) of that situation always dropped off very rapidly with repetition, to the point where after no more than a few sessions the players simply wanted a few dice rolls to settle how many Blood Points they had to work with and call it quits. Playing a character still actively working as some kind of sex-service professional (as opposed to having gotten out of the Life to go adventuring) strikes me as likely to wind up in the same situation.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 05, 2022, 07:46:52 PM
I'd suggest one problem with playing a character who engages in sex work is the same problem of playing any character with job or time commitments not immediately relevant to the adventuring situation: letting anything unimportant pull time and focus away from the PCs and their adventure is ultimately a net negative.
I've cited this before, but a parallel example for me was always the process of blood hunting for vampires in Vampire, in any iteration thereof. Unless you could figure out a way to make a specific hunt involve things critical to the adventure, the basic titillation factor (and that applies to more dimensions than the merely prurient here) of that situation always dropped off very rapidly with repetition, to the point where after no more than a few sessions the players simply wanted a few dice rolls to settle how many Blood Points they had to work with and call it quits. Playing a character still actively working as some kind of sex-service professional (as opposed to having gotten out of the Life to go adventuring) strikes me as likely to wind up in the same situation.
Difference is that sex work has a lot more potential of being being featured or being relevant to an adventure than almost any boring ass day job. Sex worker PCs could use the sex work angle to approach certain NPCs, gather information or their work could lead to adventure hooks and such. Granted, being a sex worker might have fuck to the with a GM's campaign, or the GM might not be willing or able to work the sex work angle into every adventure, but it's probably more likely and easier to do than working in being a store clerk or a lawyer, etc.
Other professions might also have adventuring potential too, though, like being a soldier or agent, which you could build an entire campaign around. Your character could also have a tech repairman gig on the side if they're the tech guy in a modern setting, etc. Some jobs are easier to work into an adventuring life than others, and sex worker probably ranks higher than most. But it can get tedious to bring up the character's job every time, unless the campaign is based around it somehow (which is probably easier for soldiers or agent types than other jobs).
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 05, 2022, 12:15:54 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 05, 2022, 11:49:58 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 05, 2022, 11:05:41 AM
In all seriousness, playing that sort of profession, even sans squick detail, makes my eyebrows rise as a GM. As a background, I could tolerate it if it was something in the character's past, but as a 'current gig'? Yeah, my antennae start twitching.
Hm... Yeah, actually sounds like you might not be playing with very mature people in that case.
Or maybe I'm just naturally suspicious.
I can't blame you, producer of spirits. It is a bit off the usual path.
The Dark Eye has a prostitute profession that you can play. But, then again, it's a German rpg.
The original Deadlands has "Saloon Girl" as one of its ten archetypes, which the description makes clear means sex work. I think the old west setting makes it pretty easy to integrate such characters, who fit the genre and the background. I haven't seen it used in actual Deadlands play, though.
Basic Cyberpunk doesn't have sex worker among its options (despite lots of other low-class criminal options), but there was a setting module for George Alec Effinger's novel "When Gravity Fails" which was co-written by Effinger himself. In it, the main sample adventure has three pre-made PCs who are all sex workers in Cairo caught in a complex mystery.
On the fantasy side, there are a number of games that have lifepath options for PCs rather than assuming that they are "adventurers" with no other professional career. Warhammer Fantasy has a lot of low-class career paths down to Rat Catcher, but doesn't include sex work. However, Burning Wheel has "prostitute" among its list of two hundred or so lifepath options.
I don't know how many games I have seen that do have sex workers as possible professions, but it has been a lot.
How many players in my games have actually wanted to play current or former sex workers?
Not many. I think two that I can remember. I tend to make it less of an exciting and sexy and hot experience for them by describing it as highly physically demanding, unsexy drudgery. Not to mention a time sink that sucks them in deeper and deeper when they could be adventuring or doing something fun like shooting people in the face for money or wasting things with their crossbows.
Quote from: Dropbear on July 06, 2022, 08:37:35 PM
I don't know how many games I have seen that do have sex workers as possible professions, but it has been a lot.
How many players in my games have actually wanted to play current or former sex workers?
Not many. I think two that I can remember. I tend to make it less of an exciting and sexy and hot experience for them by describing it as highly physically demanding, unsexy drudgery. Not to mention a time sink that sucks them in deeper and deeper when they could be adventuring or doing something fun like shooting people in the face for money or wasting things with their crossbows.
I can't recall anyone playing a sex worker in a long-term campaign, but I've had sex workers in a few one-shot adventures. I had a game set in the Firefly/Serenity universe where the PCs were all working for the Companions Guild, though only two of eight pregen PCs were Guild members (i.e. sex workers).
https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/serenity/
I think compared to other professions (i.e. craftsman, entertainer, etc.), the interesting thing about sex work is the social connections that it allows. I remember playing a courtesan in one-shot game, and it meant that I knew people from widely different circles - i.e. military as well as courtiers and such.
If I made things too narrow, I apologize. Maybe I should have asked about a character who was a 'sex worker' AND...?
I mean you have options to be more than just a hooker. Assassin, sabatour, thief, spy, etc.
I had an image of a spy getting a mark in bed and while he's on top of her she outs ger thumbs on his carotid arteries and presses gently to constrict blood flow to his brain to rrender him briefly unconscious, pushed him off her, swipes out a USB drive he was carrying with one loaded with the computer virus...
Then gets back under him as he regains consciousness and even tips her for the great time...
Quote from: bromides on July 04, 2022, 07:40:07 PM(and maybe they make DEATH BY SNU SNU,
Somehow.
Someday.
I will run a game where you have to Save vs. Death by Snu Snu!!
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 05, 2022, 11:40:22 AMYou don't handle the details with a few rolls. If the player wants seduction, let them role-play the seduction.
But Jeff, then I start with the sound effects.
And then the table begs to never have sex scenes ever again in RPGs.
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 07, 2022, 04:38:07 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 05, 2022, 11:40:22 AMYou don't handle the details with a few rolls. If the player wants seduction, let them role-play the seduction.
But Jeff, then I start with the sound effects.
And then the table begs to never have sex scenes ever again in RPGs.
A more convoluted path, but the outcome is not bad either. I just see a quicker fade to black in the future.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 07, 2022, 01:00:39 AM
If I made things too narrow, I apologize. Maybe I should have asked about a character who was a 'sex worker' AND...?
I mean you have options to be more than just a hooker. Assassin, sabatour, thief, spy, etc.
I had an image of a spy getting a mark in bed and while he's on top of her she outs ger thumbs on his carotid arteries and presses gently to constrict blood flow to his brain to rrender him briefly unconscious, pushed him off her, swipes out a USB drive he was carrying with one loaded with the computer virus...
Then gets back under him as he regains consciousness and even tips her for the great time...
A player who is good at role-playing would not even have to make the character engage in sex in order to sabotage the computer.
Roleplay doesn't seek out commercial professions (and sex work is the oldest of them all). For all the moralism about sex, sex work is a class of profession that is one of the purest forms of commerce that exist. As a more libertarian person, I am all for it. If I ever did play Firefly, I'd probably choose a Companion above all other choices.
Good games with commerce tend to be competitive board games. Roleplay doesn't often deal with commercialism. Heroism is seen as something other than commercial. Even scum have hearts of gold.
Few are the pure commercial classes. Sex Workers, yes. But also actual Traders. Free League's Forbidden Lands has a Peddler. ALIEN doesn't really have a trading module. 40K Rogue Traders aren't actual traders. I still haven't bought Ryuutama, but that might be promising for trade.
Even where commercial classes exist (like Firefly's companions or Forbidden Land's Peddlers), the game often isn't about the commerce. Like, Companions are expected to be sluts (giving it away for free) rather than whores (commercial traders). When the focus leaves out the "Work", then it's just the other thing ("Sex").
I have yet to read what Traveler or Cepheus does in the commercial space, but at least there is something... which is a rarity.
Postmortem's Courtesans RPG is structured more like a board game feel, with very strict turn structures. This is a criticism of the game as a RPG (which Grim Jim himself pointed out in a review of the product), but when it comes to commercial interests like sex work, I feel like it is more successful in that highly structured format than a pure roleplay. (It may be less intentional and more of an expression of the author's ASD, but I feel like the strict structure actually helps more than hinders the matetial.)
Courtesans at least handles the commerce bit - a rarity in any game, to be sure.
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 07, 2022, 04:33:36 AM
Quote from: bromides on July 04, 2022, 07:40:07 PM(and maybe they make DEATH BY SNU SNU,
Somehow.
Someday.
I will run a game where you have to Save vs. Death by Snu Snu!!
One of the joys growing up as a young lad, back in the stone age, was the 1e AD&D Monster Manual (plus Deities & Demigods).
One recalls that the Succubus had a good drawing.
I would imagine that a Succubus/Incubus game would work (if it does not already exist), and saves vs Snu Snu might then be rather appropriate.
Of course, a candidate for this type of game would be White Wolf with their "Abc the Xyz" type games, like Vampire the Emoing... or Werewolf the Furrying. And then it would be mostly a game about navel-gazing, although I always looked at Vampire as another form of Superhero game, myself.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 07, 2022, 01:00:39 AM
If I made things too narrow, I apologize. Maybe I should have asked about a character who was a 'sex worker' AND...?
I mean you have options to be more than just a hooker. Assassin, sabatour, thief, spy, etc.
I had an image of a spy getting a mark in bed and while he's on top of her she outs ger thumbs on his carotid arteries and presses gently to constrict blood flow to his brain to rrender him briefly unconscious, pushed him off her, swipes out a USB drive he was carrying with one loaded with the computer virus...
Then gets back under him as he regains consciousness and even tips her for the great time...
Yeah, the sheer amount of stripper ninja PCs I have encountered in Shadowrun alone is mind-boggling. I get what you're saying. I just don't find it to be a particularly compelling argument for the player to want their character to still be an active stripper/porn star/whatever while actively pursuing adventuring life. If "former" were prefixed before the type of sex worker in question, sure. And the skills learned in that lifestyle were being put to use in the new one.
But I would absolutely have to fade to black a lot with that. I have no desire to RP sex scenes at all. Well, maybe with my lady behind closed doors but not at a mixed gaming table. It's not within my comfort level for one of my players to be describing in detail how his super sexy elf girl blows a guy to get deets for a run/grift/con/etc.
Yeah, I think that part (using sex to generate plot movement) is where the concept is kind of weird. It's more about the sex part than commerce, with sex workers expected to be a slut for plot points rather than a whore for commercial enterprise.
That misses the point with sex workers, just as RPGs often miss the point about capitalism and commerce in general. (especially modern games, which are often socialistic if not communist.) If one emphasizes the "sex" over "work", then the perspective of it gets a little confused, IMO.
Playing a sex worker is similar to playing a merchant trader in any game, the sex work or trading is only a plot vehicle to connect adventures and adventuring.
Case in point, I'm doing two Traveller games set in the same subsector with noble houses competing with each other and moving the citizens they govern like chess pieces in a colonial frontier environment. A courtesan in this setting could work for herself and while individual noble houses may want to contract her exclusively, she is the one who moves between worlds and nobles, manipulating them with information and rumors she hears from other nobles. The courtesan, being considered just high class entertainment, is not taken seriously but is the de facto power behind the thrones in that subsector. Would the sexual nature be part of this, yes - but not the focus of the adventures.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 07, 2022, 06:11:39 AM
A player who is good at role-playing would not even have to make the character engage in sex in order to sabotage the computer.
I'd hope one of mine would not feel their only hope in sabotaging the computer lies in seducing it.
Quote from: Dropbear on July 07, 2022, 12:02:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 07, 2022, 06:11:39 AM
A player who is good at role-playing would not even have to make the character engage in sex in order to sabotage the computer.
I'd hope one of mine would not feel their only hope in sabotaging the computer lies in seducing it.
Wasn't that a Star Trek episode?
Quote from: jhkim on July 06, 2022, 03:30:52 PM
Warhammer Fantasy has a lot of low-class career paths down to Rat Catcher, but doesn't include sex work. However, Burning Wheel has "prostitute" among its list of two hundred or so lifepath options.
2e at least had 'Camp Follower' as a starting option. It wasn't explicit the PC had done/did sex work and instead mentioned their role included things like scavenging, cleaning, widows, etc but they could take Charm as a skill and it's no secret what a lot of real-world camp followers were.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 04, 2022, 03:44:45 PM
All this yapyap about that Satine 'gamer personality/influencer/WTFE' (Honestly never heard of her till very recently, but I'm not into the big D or WW) and the fact she's mostly famous for doing porn and claiming she's big into gaming just got me to wondering about PCs who are partly or mostly 'sex workers'. (Prostitutes would be an acceptable term, but 'whore' in really negative, I reserve that for corrupt politicians mostly.)
I'm sure WW has gone there, but find it unlikely DnD has. Still, I wondered what games have had sex worker character types available and how they dealt with them. Just gamer curiousity. I could see some traveller games at least hinting at it.
As I think on it I see that sex workers could have potential. Fuedal Japan had geisha spies and assassins, after all. In occupied France more than a few Nazis were hustled off to hell by a 'poisoned tart.'
Nah, I don't think I'd play one, in fact I know I wouldnt. But all this yipyap about a 'gamer personality ' who seems to be mostly known for fucking for money just started buzzing around in my synapses until I had to ask about it to shut it up.
I can't bring myself to look but I have this feeling someone will post a link to a WW game called 'Whore, the spreading' or something... ::)
Good god, rule 34 gets everything, doesn't it?
I believe Call of Cthulhu had prostitute as a career in one addition.
Rune Quest has sacred prostitutes which is a playable route.
I want to say you can be a Scorpion clan geisha in Legend of the Five
I believe WFRP 2nd edition had courtesan and camp follower careers which alluded to additional activites these careers might engage in.
While there would be edge scenarios where it might be interesting I think most examples of sex work wouldn't really fit that well into most rpg games as a player characters.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 07, 2022, 11:21:20 AM
Playing a sex worker is similar to playing a merchant trader in any game, the sex work or trading is only a plot vehicle to connect adventures and adventuring.
Which connects to the point I was making earlier, in that the whole point of plot vehicles is that they're not themselves the interesting and unique "on stage" parts
of the plot. Just as hunting for blood in
Vampire becomes a hoop you have to jump through to get to the "real" action, the mundane "work" part of the job is a hoop you acknowledge passing through to get to the plot for which the job is a McGuffin.
One major difficulty for using sex work as a plot vehicle of this type for PCs comes in for those players (myself being one of them, and there may be others here) who don't view prostitution as a morally neutral or harmless business, and find it disruptive (i.e. either offensive or plausibility-breaking or both) to try to depict it as if it were. I don't want to digress into an argument about that position, as I recognize others will disagree and that's not the point of the thread, but I think it's important to recognize that this clash exists and that sometimes it's better avoided than digressed into.
Quote from: Visitor Q on July 07, 2022, 01:39:49 PM
I believe Call of Cthulhu had prostitute as a career in one addition.
"Careers" in CoC are simply pre-packaged skill choices - no matter what the edition is. Normally you are simply free to choose a number of skills that define your character once you have decided who he/she/they/pressF1/ctrl+alt+del is. For a prostitute in 7E "Art/Craft" covers... er...
that thing, then you can add Charm, Psychology, Fast Talk and so on, according to how you see your character (maybe "Other Language: French" if she... uhm... served in France during WWI, or how to use a gun, or whatever the character history could suggest).
Dragon Magazine introduced a Geisha character class for Oriental Adventures, which could multi-class with Ninja. In my OA game, we had one player who ran a Geisha-Ninja. (Please spare me the rant that Geisha weren't sex workers, etc.)
ACKS has the Priestess of Ianna (goddess of love & war), one of the templates of which is a Sacred Courtesan. It also has the Priestess of Nasga (goddess of beauty & pain), effectively a clerical dominatrix. Sacred courtesans appear in Capital of the Borderlands' city of Cyfaraun. In a few hundred sessions I've never really seen anybody have problems with it. My players will scream at each other over whether or not it's lawful to execute kobold babies, but they take for given that an ancient Rome-type setting has sex workers and temple prostitutes and so on.
Outside of tabletop, the MMORPG Star Wars: Galaxies had Dancers who performed in cantinas for tips. The dance was definitely modeled after exotic dance and the dancers were generally quite scantily clad. Ostensibly you had to visit the cantina to burn off Battle Fatigue over time. In practice, a number of the dancers made tips from sexting. The system was eventually dismantled, presumably for that reason...
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 04, 2022, 08:37:54 PM
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 04, 2022, 08:16:48 PM
I've played a limited number of rpg fields, I don't get the 'hot new thing everyone gets' because I like what I like, not what 'everyone' likes. I don't go for games that are based on shock for shocks sake.
It was interesting to see how many games at least touched on this topic. It's been mentioned in a few wh40k products, a major character had a close companion who was a former prostitute. Oddly enough they loved each other despite the face he and she could never do it.
In another story there was a prostitute who turned out to be a genestealer hybrid. If you know shit about 40k you know that was a real ''EEEEYYYYYYEEEEEEEWWWWW!!! '' moment.
Out if curiousiy I looked at jeffy's reply, which confirmed my wisdom is not reading his shitposts, but was slightly surprised to see traveller games had them. I like traveller as an idea and a setting, not in love with the oldd school rules.
Nice to know that I am living rent free inside your head.....
Your statement, "Oddly enough they loved each other despite the face he and she could never do it." tells me that you don't know the difference between eros and philia. Not surprising, really. Just another example of your shallow thinking.
Late to this. subject. But this is nothing new.
And as was ruthlessly pointed out in the last SJW screeching about the "courtesan" table in the AD&D DMG. These morons cant even tell what the fuck these examples really were as they were not refferencing prostitutes more often than not. But of course fake outrage is what these cultists excell at.
On the official side...
White Wolf added into their d20m GW expansions the... Sexually Transmitted PC. No. Im not joking. Its WW. Oh and a horror mistakenly named the, ahem... Ravisher. Well they claimed it was a mistake when I asked...
White Wolf again with an article in their Inphobia mag on the sex lives of werewolves. The usual village idiots have been screeching "BEASTIALITY!!!!" for decades now.
White Wolf yet again has dotted their games with mentions of characters having less than glamorous professions. Vampire in particular.
And that is not even touching on any given RPG that is freeform enough to allow pretty much any sort of profession to be simulated.
On the semi-official side...
GW way the hell back when White Dwarf was still actually a gaming magazine, introduced a courtesan type PC for AD&D. I'd have to dig it out to find the exact details. Been a while.
TSR in Dragon introduced the Geisha.
Theres a few others in gaming mags over the years. Usually around the April edition.
On the fanwork side...
Someone did for BESM a bemusing dating sim/adult oriented piece that of course BGG flipped out about.
Theres been at least two published Erotic Guides to D&D out there for 3e.
Theres at least two for gurps.
Theres others. Some serious. Some very not. None of which counts as examples because they are fan works. Of course someones going to come up with something sooner or later for any RPG if they set their minds to it. Same for some of the magazine examples. Those were fan submitted and the companies were not so puritanical as to reject it.
Doesn't BattleTech have the Majestry of Canopus minor faction who have a law that only women can rule, using the title of Majestrix. I say this because I heard that somewhere in the lore that the Majestrix in 3025 time period is both a ruler, but also will work as a high class prostitute as a hobby, something the super liberal Canopians barely bat an eye at, or are even proud of her for being so liberal.
I'm pretty sure that's all BS, but I did hear it.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on July 08, 2022, 10:32:01 AM
Doesn't BattleTech have the Majestry of Canopus minor faction who have a law that only women can rule, using the title of Majestrix. I say this because I heard that somewhere in the lore that the Majestrix in 3025 time period is both a ruler, but also will work as a high class prostitute as a hobby, something the super liberal Canopians barely bat an eye at, or are even proud of her for being so liberal.
I'm pretty sure that's all BS, but I did hear it.
Not quite. Evidently Kyalla Centrella (the Magestrix of that time period) was just a massively horny woman and it caused no end of trouble. But the Canopians as a rule are pretty libertine, and 'what happens in Canopus stays on Canopus' is pretty accurate.
Quote from: Reckall on July 07, 2022, 02:54:42 PM
Quote from: Visitor Q on July 07, 2022, 01:39:49 PM
I believe Call of Cthulhu had prostitute as a career in one addition.
"Careers" in CoC are simply pre-packaged skill choices - no matter what the edition is. Normally you are simply free to choose a number of skills that define your character once you have decided who he/she/they/pressF1/ctrl+alt+del is. For a prostitute in 7E "Art/Craft" covers... er... that thing, then you can add Charm, Psychology, Fast Talk and so on, according to how you see your character (maybe "Other Language: French" if she... uhm... served in France during WWI, or how to use a gun, or whatever the character history could suggest).
Well yeah, but that's the case for basically every Basic Roleplay system and its hybrid offshoots. OP wanted to know games which had sex workers. CoC was one. I haven't played every edition of CoC so didn't know if prostitute was in every edition.
So I like the game called Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool Edition. The Wizard can specialize in Illusions, like many RPGs have. First, creating realistic looking holograms, then ones that make sound, and ultimately solid as well.
At that point I'm sure it doesn't take a lot of imagination why a Wizard went that route.
I had a "Haughty Courtesan" NPC in my last campaign, but it was a PG-13 game.
Years ago, in my high-level campaign, the Master Thief in the group did own a brothel in Greyhawk City. He trained all of the "harlots" to be his new Thieves' Guild.
What is the Big Deal?
Back during my GURPS:TRAVELLER campaign of 2003 to 2008 I had a recurring Courtesan NPC named Violet Tsung - she owned an Empress Marava class Far Trader that she used as a travelling base for her business. Her brother (also an NPC) was a friend to the player character group.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar on July 20, 2022, 12:13:37 AM
What is the Big Deal?
Back during my GURPS:TRAVELLER campaign of 2003 to 2008 I had a recurring Courtesan NPC named Violet Tsung - she owned an Empress Marava class Far Trader that she used as a travelling base for her business. Her brother (also an NPC) was a friend to the player character group.
- Ed C.
Star Wars D6 Galaxy Guide 6: Tramp Freighters had a washed-up holo-actress delivering cargo out of a small yacht called the Gilded Lily. Hmm...
Quote from: bromides on July 07, 2022, 10:50:25 AM
Yeah, I think that part (using sex to generate plot movement) is where the concept is kind of weird. It's more about the sex part than commerce, with sex workers expected to be a slut for plot points rather than a whore for commercial enterprise.
That misses the point with sex workers, just as RPGs often miss the point about capitalism and commerce in general. (especially modern games, which are often socialistic if not communist.) If one emphasizes the "sex" over "work", then the perspective of it gets a little confused, IMO.
Interesting that you mention capitalism. I have often toyed with the idea of a James Clavell-based game. He was always very "capitalist-friendly" and focused on trade as a major point in his books, unlike most authors who tend to be left-leaning. One issue is that every time I bring up James Clavell people think I want a "Shogun" game, when I am actually talking about "Tai-Pan" (historical) or "Noble House" (more modern). :D
only ever had one PC that was a 'sex worker' but that was just a cover as she was a under cover cop.
WEG star wars had the senator template.
Quote from: Slipshot762 on January 10, 2023, 07:45:06 AM
WEG star wars had the senator template.
Hey, now... even sex workers have some things they won't do for money. ;D
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 10, 2023, 08:22:15 AM
Quote from: Slipshot762 on January 10, 2023, 07:45:06 AM
WEG star wars had the senator template.
Hey, now... even sex workers have some things they won't do for money. ;D
"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."
"I doubt it--I worked in the Senate."
--Dialogue from a Star Wars RPG session I played in many years ago.
QuoteWEG star wars had the senator template.
LOL ! I would say a sex worker was more honest :)
Only skimmed the first page. If no one has mentioned it yet, Alpha Blue has a prostitute character class...
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/168961/Alpha-Blue
Oh, look... it's even on sale!
VS
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 04, 2022, 03:44:45 PM
All this yapyap about that Satine 'gamer personality/influencer/WTFE' (Honestly never heard of her till very recently, but I'm not into the big D or WW) and the fact she's mostly famous for doing porn and claiming she's big into gaming just got me to wondering about PCs who are partly or mostly 'sex workers'. (Prostitutes would be an acceptable term, but 'whore' in really negative, I reserve that for corrupt politicians mostly.)
I'm sure WW has gone there, but find it unlikely DnD has. Still, I wondered what games have had sex worker character types available and how they dealt with them. Just gamer curiousity. I could see some traveller games at least hinting at it.
In Apocalypse World all classes (called playbooks there) have a "sex move", which is implied to be just another currency used for barter/social leverage in it's apocalyptic setting. Each move works different and is tied thematically to archetype. There's one class, the
Skinner, which is explicitely a sex artist, having "escort/companionship" as a job listed in it's downtime activities. It's class powers are all related to seduction as a form of art.
I believe Shadow of the Demon Lord has a prostitute occupation (but I don't have the book with me). Pretty sure Barbarians of Lemuria Mythic Edition has something like that in it to.
I think most games that have a prostitute option have it as a background rather than as a proper class/profession/archetype. I would guess that is because in most settings, you wouldn't expect a prostitute to also be an adventurer, and if they were, they'd likely stop prostituting as soon as they scored their first big treasure.
EDIT: I was right about SOTDL. Barbarians of Lemuria ME just has a "Temptress" career which they note could mean a courtesan or serving-wench.
Quote from: Battlemaster on July 04, 2022, 03:44:45 PM
I'm sure WW has gone there, but find it unlikely DnD has.
Official D&D, I highly doubt it, but given how many sex-based D&D supplements have been published (
Blue Magic,
Book of Erotic Fantasy,
Roll for Seduction etc.), I would bet a decent sum of money that there is a published prostitute class out there for D&D.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 11, 2023, 04:27:43 PMI think most games that have a prostitute option have it as a background rather than as a proper class/profession/archetype. I would guess that is because in most settings, you wouldn't expect a prostitute to also be an adventurer, and if they were, they'd likely stop prostituting as soon as they scored their first big treasure.
Makes sense. That's why I think this "class" work better for low powered/money games.
Quote from: VengerSatanis on January 11, 2023, 11:28:02 AM
Only skimmed the first page. If no one has mentioned it yet, Alpha Blue has a prostitute character class...
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/168961/Alpha-Blue
Oh, look... it's even on sale!
VS
Looks naughty.
It's always been an open rumor/joke that some people play RPGs for their kinks (hence the "Whizzard" comic, some of the jokes in the Community etc), but I have never seen it happen. Not even the few times I played with my SO only.
Quote from: Itachi on January 11, 2023, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 11, 2023, 04:27:43 PMI think most games that have a prostitute option have it as a background rather than as a proper class/profession/archetype. I would guess that is because in most settings, you wouldn't expect a prostitute to also be an adventurer, and if they were, they'd likely stop prostituting as soon as they scored their first big treasure.
Makes sense. That's why I think this "class" work better for low powered/money games.
And for games where your PCs are assumed to have regular occupations they go back to between adventures. It'd be a natural fit for both WFRP and Call of Cthulhu, but since those are "mainstream" games, they'll hint at it rather than come out and say it.
Quote from: Trond on January 11, 2023, 06:40:11 PM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on January 11, 2023, 11:28:02 AM
If no one has mentioned it yet, Alpha Blue has a prostitute character class...
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/168961/Alpha-Blue
VS
Looks naughty.
It's always been an open rumor/joke that some people play RPGs for their kinks (hence the "Whizzard" comic, some of the jokes in the Community etc), but I have never seen it happen. Not even the few times I played with my SO only.
In my experience, sexuality in TTRPGs falls into one of four broad categories.
Straighforward Erotic Roleplay - sexual content for sexual reasons. Not my bag, but easy to understand.
Covert/Unintentional ERP - People slipping things into the game (consciously or not), because those things are sexually interesting to them. Certain fetishes (furries, vore, transformation etc.) seem to have a bad rep for doing this, but it could be as innocent as a GM making NPCs based on qualities they find atractive.
"Serious" ERP (for lack of a better term) - Sexuality put into the game because someone thinks it has narrative or artistic merit. This could be atsy-fartsyness, or it could just be something the GM/players thought was necessary to be faithful to the genre or setting.
Burlesque - Sexuality meant to amuse rather than arouse. This I think is drastically the most common form, to the point where it's appeared in some way or another in almost every game I've ever played in. Fact is that at a certain base level, RPGs appeal to the 14 year old in all of us, and are often an excuse for otherwise serious adults to behave immaturely. Naked people are funny and sexual misadventures for a punchline are as old as Greek Comedy. I can't speak for Venger, but on a cursory look at Alpha Blue, it looks like this is the camp he's planting his flag in.
Quote from: Trond on January 11, 2023, 06:40:11 PM
Quote from: VengerSatanis on January 11, 2023, 11:28:02 AM
Only skimmed the first page. If no one has mentioned it yet, Alpha Blue has a prostitute character class...
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/168961/Alpha-Blue
Oh, look... it's even on sale!
VS
Looks naughty.
It's always been an open rumor/joke that some people play RPGs for their kinks (hence the "Whizzard" comic, some of the jokes in the Community etc), but I have never seen it happen. Not even the few times I played with my SO only.
It is naughty. Some people don't want any sex or sleaze or eroticism in their gaming. That's fine. I'm one of the few that do, but it all stays in-game. Never had a session turn into an orgy.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 11, 2023, 08:07:56 PM
In my experience, sexuality in TTRPGs falls into one of four broad categories.
Straighforward Erotic Roleplay - sexual content for sexual reasons. Not my bag, but easy to understand.
Covert/Unintentional ERP - People slipping things into the game (consciously or not), because those things are sexually interesting to them. Certain fetishes (furries, vore, transformation etc.) seem to have a bad rep for doing this, but it could be as innocent as a GM making NPCs based on qualities they find atractive.
"Serious" ERP (for lack of a better term) - Sexuality put into the game because someone thinks it has narrative or artistic merit. This could be atsy-fartsyness, or it could just be something the GM/players thought was necessary to be faithful to the genre or setting.
Burlesque - Sexuality meant to amuse rather than arouse. This I think is drastically the most common form, to the point where it's appeared in some way or another in almost every game I've ever played in. Fact is that at a certain base level, RPGs appeal to the 14 year old in all of us, and are often an excuse for otherwise serious adults to behave immaturely. Naked people are funny and sexual misadventures for a punchline are as old as Greek Comedy. I can't speak for Venger, but on a cursory look at Alpha Blue, it looks like this is the camp he's planting his flag in.
I'm not sure what you mean by serious erotic role-playing. I'm thinking about many games where it's been normal for PCs to be in romantic relationships - like being married, or having a romantic partner. Sex was presumed to happen for such couples, but that was always off-screen. For example, if traveling, they'd have a room to themselves rather than sharing quarters with other PCs.
Would you consider that erotic role-playing? If so, that seems like a confusing label to me. That said, there have been a subset of those games that had scenes with romantic/sexual tension in the dialog - which could more reasonably be called erotic, though it's very much a sliding scale.
Having PC sex workers has been much less common for me, but it hasn't been any more erotic than these. I noted before my Firefly/Serenity one-shot games, where all the pregen PCs were running a Companion's Guild ship.
https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/serenity/
There was nothing erotic about the role-playing, as I would describe it. There was some talk about taking jobs while traveling, but the focus was on guild issues - which could be security related, economic, or political. If sex happened, it was off-screen.
Basically, I don't think sex work as a profession is any more inherently erotic than PCs having spouses or partners.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 11, 2023, 08:07:56 PMAnd for games where your PCs are assumed to have regular occupations they go back to between adventures. It'd be a natural fit for both WFRP and Call of Cthulhu, but since those are "mainstream" games, they'll hint at it rather than come out and say it.
If anyone's ever seen the Netflix historical mystery series
Babylon Berlin, which is set in Berlin during the late '20s and early '30s (and yes, is explicitly depicted against the historical rise to power of Nazism), one of the main protagonists there is a young woman who is working to become Berlin's first female police detective, but holds both a day job as a stenographer and moonlights as a prostitute at one of the city's major nightclubs. The CoC supplement
Berlin: The Wicked City notes that as many as 50,000 young women would sometimes turn tricks for part-time income at the very least.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 11, 2023, 08:07:56 PMIn my experience, sexuality in TTRPGs falls into one of four broad categories.
Straighforward Erotic Roleplay - sexual content for sexual reasons. Not my bag, but easy to understand.
Covert/Unintentional ERP - People slipping things into the game (consciously or not), because those things are sexually interesting to them. Certain fetishes (furries, vore, transformation etc.) seem to have a bad rep for doing this, but it could be as innocent as a GM making NPCs based on qualities they find atractive.
"Serious" ERP (for lack of a better term) - Sexuality put into the game because someone thinks it has narrative or artistic merit. This could be atsy-fartsyness, or it could just be something the GM/players thought was necessary to be faithful to the genre or setting.
Burlesque - Sexuality meant to amuse rather than arouse. This I think is drastically the most common form, to the point where it's appeared in some way or another in almost every game I've ever played in. Fact is that at a certain base level, RPGs appeal to the 14 year old in all of us, and are often an excuse for otherwise serious adults to behave immaturely. Naked people are funny and sexual misadventures for a punchline are as old as Greek Comedy. I can't speak for Venger, but on a cursory look at Alpha Blue, it looks like this is the camp he's planting his flag in.
How would you classify the kind of sexual content seen in Apocalypse World and their brethren, which take the form of "sex moves", used as leverage to pull strings/manipulate PCs/NPCs. Not so different from what's seen in emseble cast TV shows. I feel like it falls on your "serious" category above.
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 11, 2023, 04:27:43 PM
I believe Shadow of the Demon Lord has a prostitute occupation (but I don't have the book with me). Pretty sure Barbarians of Lemuria Mythic Edition has something like that in it to.
I think most games that have a prostitute option have it as a background rather than as a proper class/profession/archetype. I would guess that is because in most settings, you wouldn't expect a prostitute to also be an adventurer, and if they were, they'd likely stop prostituting as soon as they scored their first big treasure.
EDIT: I was right about SOTDL. Barbarians of Lemuria ME just has a "Temptress" career which they note could mean a courtesan or serving-wench.
Of course you were right about SotDL. But even better is that there isn't a standardized list of defined professions across any board for it. Had someone choose to be a porn star in Godless. She decided to also model for Apocalyptic Warmistresses Monthly Magazine.
It was fun and games. Up until she met the Scatalogical Sorcerer Supreme, anyway.
Quote from: Wntrlnd on July 05, 2022, 07:48:21 AM
Other instances where prostitution is mentioned in various rpgs I've encountered is in Golarion the goddess Calistria in particular having "sacred prostitutes" while there is also a few other goddesses whos clergy practices it as well.
Seeing as Calistria is the also the favored deity of assassins, they're about as close you can come to the trope of "Hooker Ninja" I guess.
Pathfinder being a DnD derivate its probably as close you can get to "sex workers in a DnD game" in the current climate. I wonder how that managed to slip by the SJWs.
Just about any game that has a (profession) skill for PCs to earn money between adventures can be said to have rules for prostitution if that is what the player wishes to write down on that line.
In the same vein GURPS have a list of professions for the players to earn money by and I'm pretty sure I've seen different variations of prostitutes across different social levels and TLs in all kinds of settings.
As actual character classes/archetypes for players to pick, the Saloon Girl template exists in various games about the Wild west like Deadlands (1st ed) and swedish rpg Western 4th ed
In The Rifts RPG World Book 14 New West there is a Saloon Girl/Bar Maid O.C.C.
Quote from: jhkim on January 14, 2023, 04:51:17 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 11, 2023, 08:07:56 PM
In my experience, sexuality in TTRPGs falls into one of four broad categories.
Straighforward Erotic Roleplay - sexual content for sexual reasons. Not my bag, but easy to understand.
Covert/Unintentional ERP - People slipping things into the game (consciously or not), because those things are sexually interesting to them. Certain fetishes (furries, vore, transformation etc.) seem to have a bad rep for doing this, but it could be as innocent as a GM making NPCs based on qualities they find atractive.
"Serious" ERP (for lack of a better term) - Sexuality put into the game because someone thinks it has narrative or artistic merit. This could be atsy-fartsyness, or it could just be something the GM/players thought was necessary to be faithful to the genre or setting.
Burlesque - Sexuality meant to amuse rather than arouse. This I think is drastically the most common form, to the point where it's appeared in some way or another in almost every game I've ever played in. Fact is that at a certain base level, RPGs appeal to the 14 year old in all of us, and are often an excuse for otherwise serious adults to behave immaturely. Naked people are funny and sexual misadventures for a punchline are as old as Greek Comedy. I can't speak for Venger, but on a cursory look at Alpha Blue, it looks like this is the camp he's planting his flag in.
I'm not sure what you mean by serious erotic role-playing. I'm thinking about many games where it's been normal for PCs to be in romantic relationships - like being married, or having a romantic partner. Sex was presumed to happen for such couples, but that was always off-screen. For example, if traveling, they'd have a room to themselves rather than sharing quarters with other PCs.
Would you consider that erotic role-playing? If so, that seems like a confusing label to me. That said, there have been a subset of those games that had scenes with romantic/sexual tension in the dialog - which could more reasonably be called erotic, though it's very much a sliding scale.
Having PC sex workers has been much less common for me, but it hasn't been any more erotic than these. I noted before my Firefly/Serenity one-shot games, where all the pregen PCs were running a Companion's Guild ship.
https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/serenity/
There was nothing erotic about the role-playing, as I would describe it. There was some talk about taking jobs while traveling, but the focus was on guild issues - which could be security related, economic, or political. If sex happened, it was off-screen.
Basically, I don't think sex work as a profession is any more inherently erotic than PCs having spouses or partners.
It's not a perfect system, but the idea I was getting at was the various motivations for including explicit sexual content in a game. Romance with sex only as an implication I don't think I'd even include in that schema. To the extent it does, I guess it'd fall in the "serious" category on the grounds that it's there for narrative purposes.
Mostly I was just pointing out that when sex appears in RPGs its usually not for the purpose of arousing the participants.
Quote from: Itachi on January 14, 2023, 08:16:56 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 11, 2023, 08:07:56 PMIn my experience, sexuality in TTRPGs falls into one of four broad categories.
Straighforward Erotic Roleplay - sexual content for sexual reasons. Not my bag, but easy to understand.
Covert/Unintentional ERP - People slipping things into the game (consciously or not), because those things are sexually interesting to them. Certain fetishes (furries, vore, transformation etc.) seem to have a bad rep for doing this, but it could be as innocent as a GM making NPCs based on qualities they find atractive.
"Serious" ERP (for lack of a better term) - Sexuality put into the game because someone thinks it has narrative or artistic merit. This could be atsy-fartsyness, or it could just be something the GM/players thought was necessary to be faithful to the genre or setting.
Burlesque - Sexuality meant to amuse rather than arouse. This I think is drastically the most common form, to the point where it's appeared in some way or another in almost every game I've ever played in. Fact is that at a certain base level, RPGs appeal to the 14 year old in all of us, and are often an excuse for otherwise serious adults to behave immaturely. Naked people are funny and sexual misadventures for a punchline are as old as Greek Comedy. I can't speak for Venger, but on a cursory look at Alpha Blue, it looks like this is the camp he's planting his flag in.
How would you classify the kind of sexual content seen in Apocalypse World and their brethren, which take the form of "sex moves", used as leverage to pull strings/manipulate PCs/NPCs. Not so different from what's seen in emseble cast TV shows. I feel like it falls on your "serious" category above.
Not having played many Apocalypse World games, I would guess it would mostly fall in the "serious" category, i.e., for relatively serious narrative or thematic purposes, but I'd also bet that a lot of groups use such mechanics more for Burlesque purposes when they're playing.
Quote from: jhkim on January 14, 2023, 04:51:17 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 11, 2023, 08:07:56 PM
In my experience, sexuality in TTRPGs falls into one of four broad categories.
Straighforward Erotic Roleplay - sexual content for sexual reasons. Not my bag, but easy to understand.
Covert/Unintentional ERP - People slipping things into the game (consciously or not), because those things are sexually interesting to them. Certain fetishes (furries, vore, transformation etc.) seem to have a bad rep for doing this, but it could be as innocent as a GM making NPCs based on qualities they find atractive.
"Serious" ERP (for lack of a better term) - Sexuality put into the game because someone thinks it has narrative or artistic merit. This could be atsy-fartsyness, or it could just be something the GM/players thought was necessary to be faithful to the genre or setting.
Burlesque - Sexuality meant to amuse rather than arouse. This I think is drastically the most common form, to the point where it's appeared in some way or another in almost every game I've ever played in. Fact is that at a certain base level, RPGs appeal to the 14 year old in all of us, and are often an excuse for otherwise serious adults to behave immaturely. Naked people are funny and sexual misadventures for a punchline are as old as Greek Comedy. I can't speak for Venger, but on a cursory look at Alpha Blue, it looks like this is the camp he's planting his flag in.
I'm not sure what you mean by serious erotic role-playing. I'm thinking about many games where it's been normal for PCs to be in romantic relationships - like being married, or having a romantic partner. Sex was presumed to happen for such couples, but that was always off-screen. For example, if traveling, they'd have a room to themselves rather than sharing quarters with other PCs.
Would you consider that erotic role-playing? .....
I think he means kinky games. Like this:
https://post-mort.com/collections/roleplaying-games/products/erotech-gazetteer-number-1
Quote from: ForgottenF on January 15, 2023, 12:32:27 AM
It's not a perfect system, but the idea I was getting at was the various motivations for including explicit sexual content in a game. Romance with sex only as an implication I don't think I'd even include in that schema. To the extent it does, I guess it'd fall in the "serious" category on the grounds that it's there for narrative purposes.
Mostly I was just pointing out that when sex appears in RPGs its usually not for the purpose of arousing the participants.
I agree.
I'm adding that having sex workers as characters doesn't inherently mean that there is anything explicit that happens in the game. It can be just a background profession.