Quote from: Batman;866023In my experience, there's more to it than just an unhappy player with the restrictions. We're the restrictions in place before the player decided to join or are the restrictions based more on just the DMs dislike of said options than a strong thematic reason for them not existing, for example?

I'm of the belief that most options can be incorporated into almost any campaign with a tiny bit effort on both the player and DM

Sometimes it's not about the effort, it's about the player either acting in bad faith or just not getting the premise intended.

If I'm running a game of ancient Greek sea wolves roving the Mediterranean taking ships and raiding towns for profit, I'm not going to torture the premise to find a way to fit in that Baltic lordling with retinue someone really wanted to play. The answer would simply be "no, come up with a concept that fits".

Quote from: Kiero;866030Sometimes it's not about the effort, it's about the player either acting in bad faith or just not getting the premise intended.

If I'm running a game of ancient Greek sea wolves roving the Mediterranean taking ships and raiding towns for profit, I'm not going to torture the premise to find a way to fit in that Baltic lordling with retinue someone really wanted to play. The answer would simply be "no, come up with a concept that fits".

Finding out why being, specifically, a Baltic lordling is important in making the concept work. Maybe being Baltic isn't as important as being wealthy or having a retinue. Maybe a Greek lordling can work?

Quote from: Batman;866053Finding out why being, specifically, a Baltic lordling is important in making the concept work. Maybe being Baltic isn't as important as being wealthy or having a retinue. Maybe a Greek lordling can work?

And among a bunch of sea wolves, you're a "Special Snowflake" and the game becomes about you.

This is "failure to engage the concept" once again.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;866065And among a bunch of sea wolves, you're a "Special Snowflake" and the game becomes about you.

This is "failure to engage the concept" once again.

Nope, not at all. Maybe the Greek lordling ran away on a ship away from his family and took a couple of his friends along and he wants to start a new life. The ship he jumps in on is, as he quickly learns, is a sea wolf. Of course his family sends out a party to find him and bring him back but it's a minor sub-plot to the overall adventure.

Or maybe his ship is raided as he and his retinue leave and instead of killing him outright, put him to work and basically follow their lead or die and as he starts to become involved with the raiding, he starts to like it. It also gives the DM scenarios that might pit the once lordling against his family as they raid one of their homesteads.

Sometimes the player gets fixated on some idea. Really fixated. Sometimes its just that one time. Others its a fixation that crosses over to every game.

Most memorable and vexing was a player who was fixated on dual wielding.

The game was garbage if you couldnt dual wield.
The game was garbage if you couldnt dual wield perfectly.
The game was garbage if you could have four arms and could not dual or quad wield.

He grew out of it. About a decade later.

Or a player fixated on wearing armour over armour. Even after I repeatedly pointed out that this is what several armours are.

Though I did think his idea of putting chain-mail over plate mail was a neet and actually do-able idea.

Quote from: Batman;866069Nope, not at all. Maybe the Greek lordling ran away on a ship away from his family and took a couple of his friends along and he wants to start a new life. The ship he jumps in on is, as he quickly learns, is a sea wolf. Of course his family sends out a party to find him and bring him back but it's a minor sub-plot to the overall adventure.

Or maybe his ship is raided as he and his retinue leave and instead of killing him outright, put him to work and basically follow their lead or die and as he starts to become involved with the raiding, he starts to like it. It also gives the DM scenarios that might pit the once lordling against his family as they raid one of their homesteads.

A Greek almost anything will fit. The issue is not the lordling nor retinue, it's trying to combine playing a Balt with both those two. A foreigner who is a total fish out of water cannot also manage to bring along all the trappings of wealth and connections so far from their homeland. It would be the same if they wanted to combine lordling and retinue with being Indian or Nubian or Sakan.

A single Balt, separated from home for whatever reason, would be a stretch but do-able. But drop the requirement to be a barbarian from distant lands, and either or both of the other two parts work just fine.

Quote from: Kiero;866075A Greek almost anything will fit. The issue is not the lordling nor retinue, it's trying to combine playing a Balt with both those two. A foreigner who is a total fish out of water cannot also manage to bring along all the trappings of wealth and connections so far from their homeland. It would be the same if they wanted to combine lordling and retinue with being Indian or Nubian or Sakan.

A single Balt, separated from home for whatever reason, would be a stretch but do-able. But drop the requirement to be a barbarian from distant lands, and either or both of the other two parts work just fine.

Pardon my ignorance, why doesn't a Balt work?

Edit: a quick Wiki search brings up something called the Amber Way, a trade route from the Baltic Sea region south to the Mediterranean and even to Africa. One could say a wealthy  Balt nobleman might attempt to seek trade further, gaining better Standing within their family and greater wealth. Thus he's sailing on a ship near greece. This ship could encounter sea wolves and he bargains his wealth to spare life for himself and his retinue.

Now such a character would have almost zero political influence due to his nobility, but I think with enough gumption and Charisma, he could survive and even prosper in that environment.

Quote from: Batman;866023I'm of the belief that most options can be incorporated into almost any campaign with a tiny bit effort on both the player and DM

I'm not.

Quote from: Batman;866079Pardon my ignorance, why doesn't a Balt work?

Well, a Balt is not a Greek. Is there some reason the that the player is unwilling to engage with the actual premise and play a Greek like everybody else?

Quote from: Bren;866093I'm not.

I find that a bit of a shame.

Quote from: Bren;866093Well, a Balt is not a Greek. Is there some reason the that the player is unwilling to engage with the actual premise and play a Greek like everybody else?

Doesn't like Greek culture? Doesn't know much about Greek deities, life, or about their culture? Doesn't want to be a cliché 300 Spartan or Athenian? But still wants to be apart of the group and hang out with friends.

Quote from: Batman;866079Pardon my ignorance, why doesn't a Balt work?

Edit: a quick Wiki search brings up something called the Amber Way, a trade route from the Baltic Sea region south to the Mediterranean and even to Africa. One could say a wealthy  Balt nobleman might attempt to seek trade further, gaining better Standing within their family and greater wealth. Thus he's sailing on a ship near greece. This ship could encounter sea wolves and he bargains his wealth to spare life for himself and his retinue.

Now such a character would have almost zero political influence due to his nobility, but I think with enough gumption and Charisma, he could survive and even prosper in that environment.

Sorry, it makes no sense. Why is he leaving his power base far behind to get involved with the distant end of the trade that's completely outside his control? There are so many intermediaries between the Baltic and Mediterranean that make the Amber Route function, how is he expecting to make an end-run round them all by going to the terminus?

If he gets picked up by said sea wolves, and they spare his life, then we've completely invalidated most of the concept. He might be taken as a slave, along with the rest of his retinue. Or his retinue might be killed or enslaved in the bargain. Both the retinue and wealthy parts have been made null right at the start. What was the point in either? A pirate vessel doesn't have room for passengers, if you're not an oarsman, sailor or marine, you're taking up valuable space and threatening the stability of the ship.

A lone Balt, who might be an exiled nobleman, fleeing far from his home, could work. But trying to bring all those connections, and a bunch of people who are largely useless on a ship which has very limited space isn't going to.

Quote from: Batman;866103Doesn't like Greek culture? Doesn't know much about Greek deities, life, or about their culture? Doesn't want to be a cliché 300 Spartan or Athenian? But still wants to be apart of the group and hang out with friends.

Then they need to get with the program. The game is billed as Greek sea wolves; there are plenty of non-Greek, yet still-valid cultural alternatives. They could be Latin or Celtic or Persian or Egyptian or Phoenician or many others who were active in and around the Mediterranean at the time. They'll still have to deal with the fact that the dominant culture they will be interacting with is often Greek or Persian.

What this player has effectively done, by choosing someone from a distant land with essentially land-based agendas, is tried to play a completely different game. Why should everyone else have to endure the game being bent around one person's desires that are at a tangent to the stated premise?

Quote from: Kiero;866113A lone Balt, who might be an exiled nobleman, fleeing far from his home, could work. But trying to bring all those connections, and a bunch of people who are largely useless on a ship which has very limited space isn't going to.

(...) The game is billed as Greek sea wolves; there are plenty of non-Greek, yet still-valid cultural alternatives. They could be Latin or Celtic or Persian or Egyptian or Phoenician or many others who were active in and around the Mediterranean at the time. They'll still have to deal with the fact that the dominant culture they will be interacting with is often Greek or Persian.

Yeah, those would be my suggestions as well. Hell, he could play a time-displaced Koine-Greek-speaking modern-day Westerner for all I care, as long as he's OK with a game of, y'know, Ancient Mediterranean seafaring adventurers.

Quote from: Kiero;866113...

What this player has effectively done, by choosing someone from a distant land with essentially land-based agendas, is tried to play a completely different game. Why should everyone else have to endure the game being bent around one person's desires that are at a tangent to the stated premise?

Quite. I have little sympathy for bending stories to accommodate the surreal metagame desire for a "party that does adventures together" while also allowing that party to consist of random strangers with no reason to be an adventuring party. I tend to disallow it, and to have logical consequences take care of people who get irrational characters in. Land-based agenda man can disembark. In general, when PCs go off doing things that don't really work for the other PCs or NPCs around, I like to see the natural things result, like having them quickly run into conflicts, get rejected by other characters, go their own way, or whatever.

The Baltic lordling and retinue might make an interesting group of passengers to temporarily be the occasion for the PCs' ship to have an adventure or two, but the lordling should act like a lordling and not a generic adventurer who happens to have a pack of guards, and his agenda will probably have him leaving the ship to do his business sooner rather than later, and acting on his own agenda rather that becoming a trusting/trusted intimate ally of the PC group for no reason, etc. I.e., might be a cool guest star, but not a permanent nonsense member of a ship crew.

Quote from: Batman;866103Doesn't know much about Greek deities, life, or about their culture?

But he knows a lot about the Balt culture? That seems really unlikely.

Quote from: Batman;866103Doesn't like Greek culture?

In other words, he is not engaged with the campaign premise of Greek sea raiders.

QuoteDoesn't want to be a cliché 300 Spartan or Athenian?

But the premise was not cliché 300 nor was it cliché Athenians. It was Greek sea raiders. So now he isn't even paying attention to what the premise is.

QuoteBut still wants to be apart of the group and hang out with friends.

Then he should suck it up, actualy pay attention to the campaign premise, and engage with the campaign premise instead of insisting everyone should accommodate his special snowflakeness.

If he won't do that than he should hang out with friends on a different day. Guys who refuse to engage with the premise because they don't like it or who are too lazy to go to the minimal effort necessary to engage with a simple premise (like Greek sea raiders) would better serve the needs of the group by skipping game night and showing up on movie night instead.

I should note that in the straw man I built up for that hypothetical game, I deliberately chose a concept that wouldn't fit with the premise. But it illustrates the point that it isn't merely a case of finding a way; sometimes there isn't a way to be found, because a concept doesn't fit.

Quote from: Batman;866103Doesn't like Greek culture? Doesn't know much about Greek deities, life, or about their culture? Doesn't want to be a cliché 300 Spartan or Athenian? But still wants to be apart of the group and hang out with friends.

In other words, he's a fucknuts at worst, or a casual gamer at best.

If he's so fucking casual that "he wants to be a part of the group and hang out with friends," he can play the god damned game.

Really, do you know how fucking asinine that post of yours is?  "Doesn't want to engage the premise of the game, doesn't want to engage the premise of the game, wasn't paying fucking attention when the premise of the game was explained."

Really, the group would be much better off without him.  He's a buttnugget.