So picture the scene if you will. you've just bought the Players Handbook for a new game that you like the look of. It has a few bits on character generation, but instead of character classes, it has characters.
No Druid. But it does have Selma the Herbalist, Davith, Moon Master and Scillia Vulture-Borne. No Fighters, but it does have Sir Reginald of Hagwich, Peregrin Whipsnap, and Hannah from Montana *.
You choose your stats, you do your background, you change the name if you want, but instead of class abilities based on level, you get character abilities unique to each character in the book based on character level.
Effectively a living Players Handbook - maybe some bright spark releases half a dozen new characters every month or so at an online outlet.
Is that something that appeals to people, or is that de-protagonising you in a story-game like way?
Have at it!
* Not really
Sounds like a lot of work for the person putting it together initially. Something like this would make a good supplement, kind of like along the lines of the Rogue's Gallery but for Player Characters with details for level advancement. Characters having names would be handy, but including a sheet with the name left blank would also be handy. Probably good for pickup games and one shots.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937675So picture the scene if you will. you've just bought the Players Handbook for a new game that you like the look of. It has a few bits on character generation, but instead of character classes, it has characters.
No Druid. But it does have Selma the Herbalist, Davith, Moon Master and Scillia Vulture-Borne. No Fighters, but it does have Sir Reginald of Hagwich, Peregrin Whipsnap, and Hannah from Montana *.
You choose your stats, you do your background, you change the name if you want, but instead of class abilities based on level, you get character abilities unique to each character in the book based on character level.
Effectively a living Players Handbook - maybe some bright spark releases half a dozen new characters every month or so at an online outlet.
Is that something that appeals to people, or is that de-protagonising you in a story-game like way?
Have at it!
* Not really
The only thing unique to [strike]Selma[/strike] the Herbalist is her level progression? Why bother with the illusion of "characters not classes"?
Quote from: Sommerjon;937688The only thing unique to [strike]Selma[/strike] the Herbalist is her level progression? Why bother with the illusion of "characters not classes"?
Well, for a start, it will be unique to each character, rather than a 'class' as a template, and creating a character from that template. So, if you define a singular use of a template as a class, then i guess you're right.
Quote from: Sommerjon;937688The only thing unique to [strike]Selma[/strike] the Herbalist is her level progression? Why bother with the illusion of "characters not classes"?
Well, for a start, it will be unique to each character, rather than a 'class' as a template, and creating a character from that template. So, if you define a singular use of a template as a class, then i guess you're right.
One Horse- are you talking just like a huge book of player character templates, but in this case named and not as generic?
Are these character templates tied strongly to the setting, so Davith the Moon Master or Scillia Vulture-Borne have a rich history, backstory, role within the setting that Druid X would not? Are there going to be adventures constructed around these "iconics" or are they just specific examples of characters in that setting/world?
As a GM, at some point I'm probably going to want the Secret Formula to making the templates.
As a Player, it wouldn't bother me too much as long as there were enough of them. I've never had a problem with taking a pre-gen.
Quote from: RunningLaser;937692One Horse- are you talking just like a huge book of player character templates, but in this case named and not as generic?
I *think* he's talking about a classless system based on Characters (ie, templates and archetypes) so the PCs can hit the ground running and not go through the Chargen process. Since every character is unique, there's less balance fetishism, 20-level builds planned out before you sit at the table, etc. Kind of like Shadowrun with it's 12 or so archetypes, only I'm assuming much more than 12 templates, and no full-blown chargen.
Dan, I assume you will have a full-blown chargen system for the GM to make the templates?
Quote from: RunningLaser;937692One Horse- are you talking just like a huge book of player character templates, but in this case named and not as generic?
I'm talking about a book with characters in it.
So, using Selma the Herbalist as an example - nice character picture, the skills she has, any unusual equipment she starts with, and then her character progression. We might find that at 2nd level she gains 1 free herb of 10 gp value each time she has a down-time period. At 5th level she gains the Green-Eyed Monster and Flora Flatulence spells (no-one else in the game ever gets them unless taught by Selma), etc etc
As SJ points out, superficially it can be seen as a 'class', but in reality it's a unique character.
Point is, would anyone want to play a character whose 'progression' is all laid out in-front of them?
Quote from: CRKrueger;937693Dan, I assume you will have a full-blown chargen system for the GM to make the templates?
It's just a hypothetical at the moment mate. I confess i don't know if any traditional game has ever done anything similar.
Quote from: CRKrueger;937693Are these character templates tied strongly to the setting, so Davith the Moon Master or Scillia Vulture-Borne have a rich history, backstory, role within the setting that Druid X would not? Are there going to be adventures constructed around these "iconics" or are they just specific examples of characters in that setting/world?
In the case of the former, perhaps adding boxes with character specific adventure seeds could help? Maybe in another section for the GM. Players would have to be okay with having characters with a back history known to the GM but not necessarily the player until it is revealed. I have done this in D&D though not with pregens, where a player may find a long lost relative, or some piece of their family's history which takes them to exotic locations, with things to kill and loot.
Quote from: CRKrueger;937693As a GM, at some point I'm probably going to want the Secret Formula to making the templates.
As a Player, it wouldn't bother me too much as long as there were enough of them. I've never had a problem with taking a pre-gen.
The Secret Formula would be a selling point. It kind of reminds me of the True20 Companion where there were rules for making custom classes. In this case it would be more specialized classes, but still mechanically classes. A gold mine for GMs.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937694Point is, would anyone want to play a character whose 'progression' is all laid out in-front of them?
Isn't that what players end up doing in 3E? Carefully plotting and planning all the feats and character levels they'll earn so they end up with something that is teh awesome? Then as you earn XP or whatever, you've already got it mapped out how your character is going to improve. It certainly seems to be the trend in, oh, the past 30 years or so. I'm sure you can definitely find people on board with the idea. It's definitely not my cup of tea, though. I have no idea what sorts of things my character will encounter, what his evolving story will be, what kind of magical boons or crippling injuries he will receive that may alter his ability sets. I have no idea what sort of group he'll end up falling in with, and exactly what role he'll take up in that group.
For example, I might create a D&D character to be a front-line fighter, but when we show up to play, someone else has an even better front-line fighter because he got a better hit points roll. But I find a comparative advantage as the party's archer. After all, this other guy is too valuable, his dice rolls too good to not be up front. We both offer the same utility as an archer, but it's less of a trade-off to have my guy do the job. So, as the campaign goes on, I invest more in better bows while the other guy invests in better armor. I make sure to jump at magic arrows, let him take the magic sword. I make sure to invest future weapon proficiencies in ranged weapons rather than melee ones. I wind up with a genuine specialist that I could not have anticipated designing during character creation. Could you imagine how frustrating it would have been to be locked into gaining weapons and skills along the way according to a progression dictated by my original build?
Quote from: One Horse Town;937699. . . I confess i don't know if any traditional game has ever done anything similar.
It sounds a little like West End
Star Wars.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;937721It sounds a little like West End Star Wars.
Hmm, and of course with FASERIP, you could just take a ready-made hero from the guidebooks and start play in a minute. I miss the d'oh smilie.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937722Hmm, and of course with FASERIP, you could just take a ready-made hero from the guidebooks and start play in a minute. I miss the d'oh smilie.
This also reminds me a bit of the old Dragonlance novels, which had pregens. This was actually one of the reasons I didn't care for Dragonlance because it felt like you were just reenacting someone else's story. FASERIP pregens were pretty much suited to the game, and when we played in junior high, having those little cards made quick lunch time games super easy.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937722I miss the d'oh smilie.
Sharing the same instincts as Greg Costikyan or Jeff Grubb is not a reason to kick yourself.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937722Hmm, and of course with FASERIP, you could just take a ready-made hero from the guidebooks and start play in a minute. I miss the d'oh smilie.
You mean TSRs Marvel Superheroes? MSH? There is no "FASERIP" sorry.
ahem... back to topic.
Basic edition MSH was exactly that. No chargen. Just characters. And theres the various D&D and Gamma World modules that provide pre-gen PCs.
Pretty sure DC Heroes was too. Or had both. Ive never seen a review that mentioned making your own. But assume its there. Still on the "to get" list.
5e Starter is kinda that. You have a pregen character that just needs a name and gender.
1e Shadowrun had both. The pregen templates and then actual character generation.
Pops up in some other non-RPG dungeoncrawls too. The whole D&D Board game line is that. You get a named and statted out character. No chargen.
I think the idea is definitely sellable. It's kind of a cross between a Shadowrun Archetype, a 3e complete build, and a Beyond the Wall Playbook. I think most people however are going to want to plan their progression. You'll get more buy-in I think the more you tie it to a setting so it's more like grabbing Wolverine in FASERIP and you know the role you're gonna play going in and how the character is defined and distinctive.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;937721It sounds a little like West End Star Wars.
That is what I was thinking.
WEG Star Wars gives you character templates which you customize, but it also gives you rules on how to create your own templates in the GMs section of the main rulebook.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937675So picture the scene if you will. you've just bought the Players Handbook for a new game that you like the look of. It has a few bits on character generation, but instead of character classes, it has characters.
I would probably be down for this if each character was like a 2nd edition kit. That way, I could go through the usual class chargen stuff, and then pick a character like "Fiesty Barmaid", or "Retired Town Guard", or "Excentric Alchemist".
Could be good marketing. Gives you an excuse to put out infinite "classes" on a subscription model without people saying that they already have all the main archetypes covered. Set up a subscription service and ad a new character a week or something from now until the sun burns out.
Would be a great help to me as a DM since a lot of players want lots of nifty little abilities but take FOREVER crunching the numbers to level up and then are much much worse at CharOp than they think they are and make sucky characters and then want to change stuff later or make new characters and blah blah blah. Having a bunch of canned builds would be helpful. Also lets the designer have a lot more free reign to put in nifty or powerful abilities and not have to worry as much about balance since you only have to roughly balance each character against each other not have to worry about thousands of possible combinations of abilities cooked up in the CharOp boards.
As a player it would annoy be a bit, I like monkeying with my characters. But overall would be good unless the group was willing to go with a stripped down game that'd make this kind of thing pointless or if the group was all experienced enough to level up characters while not forgetting to add their ability bonus to the right things etc. etc.
If you wanted a greater variety of customization, you could add optional "Paths" which are basically how sub-classes work in 5e or like Talent Tree/Feat Chains from Star Wars Saga/d20 Modern. Of course, if this was OSRized and based on BECMI/RC and or AD&D 1e then you probably don't want Feats. Maybe give the player a choice of level abilities. So instead of a big list, you have two or three and pick one? So your Fighty character has a variety of fighty options and maybe some non-fighty options. So, Strongbad the Feral could calm down and be Strongbad the Tracker later on if he wants.
This could work with a PDF based character sheet where you might have drop down options. You can change things, but it should still remain balanced overall, depending on how much you value balance. Going linear can be completely fine as well with named characters.
A possible way to draw people in is to have an adventure that maybe has character specific sidequests in little boxes. So if Kevin the Smith is in the party, he might have a sidequest that let's him repair a lever that opens a new passage somewhere. Or if Judas the Priest was there, there could be an option to cure an NPC of an affliction rather than killing him, and getting some reward out of it. Something heavy and metal. :D
Back to the secret formula question, is there one? I have done a couple of homebrew games. When i do them I talk to the players about their charcter until i get a sense and then I tell them to start writing stuff down and making decisions. Every charcter is unique. No player can min max or 'break the game' and they were balanced-ish. But the balance was in me not the system.
OP i don't think what you are trying to do can be written down and packaged and sold. Or maybe I dont understand.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937675Is that something that appeals to people, or is that de-protagonising you in a story-game like way?
Have at it!
If it works just fine in Talislanta and Feng Shui 2, I'd expect it to work in any other game, too;)!
Small note though. These sorts of Chargen-less RPGs tend to get a little, or more often alot of flack from players. MSH sure did when basic came out. But they were under mandate from Marvel. (Who then saw the error and allowed TSR to add in the chargen with the expert set.) Some see it as a cop-out or cash grab. Simmilar to the occasionally hostile reaction some have to any given space game that doesnt have spaceship building rules for example.
Theres also a couple of one-shot mini RPGs that just hand you some pre-gens and thats that.
Its is though standard procedure for like 90% of the convention parlor LARPs that go on. I havent been to any yet that didnt hand you a pregen. Very different from standard RPG LARPs which predominantly are standard chargen based (usually point buy).
Quote from: One Horse Town;937694So, using Selma the Herbalist as an example - nice character picture, the skills she has, any unusual equipment she starts with, and then her character progression. We might find that at 2nd level she gains 1 free herb of 10 gp value each time she has a down-time period. At 5th level she gains the Green-Eyed Monster and Flora Flatulence spells (no-one else in the game ever gets them unless taught by Selma), etc etc
This actually sounds kind of intriguing to me... it's certainly something I'd be willing to play.
Would the characters have pre-gen relationships to each other as well?
I'm tempted to see them as representing mystical archetypes playing out ritualized scenarios... ala Cabin In The Woods or some other Passion Play.
Quote from: Omega;937847Small note though. These sorts of Chargen-less RPGs tend to get a little, or more often alot of flack from players. MSH sure did when basic came out. But they were under mandate from Marvel. (Who then saw the error and allowed TSR to add in the chargen with the expert set.)
FASERIP had chargen rules in the basic set.
I think you may be confusing the story with what happened with MHR. Winters and Grubb specifically fought to have a character creation system as part of the license
before the game came out.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937694Point is, would anyone want to play a character whose 'progression' is all laid out in-front of them?
Not myself, personally. But then, I'm antagonistic towards level-based progression in general, so take that for what you will.
A book of pre-gen PCs (or NPCs) is a good thing for high crunch games.
But I am sure a well done OSR Rogue's Gallery would sell too.
Quote from: Omega;937847Small note though. These sorts of Chargen-less RPGs tend to get a little, or more often alot of flack from players.
Today, though, players mostly seem to be content with customizing the archetype they have chosen, when they get XP.
Or maybe it's a feature of superhero players, because XP advancement is more limited by the genre. MHR also got lots of flak for the same thing, while FS2 and Talislanta players seem happy with their lot.
One Horse- this just wouldn't be a pre-generated character, but also it would show the progression of that character as it gained levels in it's "class". So, if one wanted, you could quickly whip up a 1st level Selma, a 3rd level Selma, 7th level Selma- ect, as needed- correct?
I could see the value in that.
Quote from: RunningLaser;937870One Horse- this just wouldn't be a pre-generated character, but also it would show the progression of that character as it gained levels in it's "class". So, if one wanted, you could quickly whip up a 1st level Selma, a 3rd level Selma, 7th level Selma- ect, as needed- correct?
I could see the value in that.
Yep. A Pre and Post generated character if you like.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937675So picture the scene if you will. you've just bought the Players Handbook for a new game that you like the look of. It has a few bits on character generation, but instead of character classes, it has characters.
Full chargen rules and a few (or a lot of) sample characters? Great! I play classless systems pretty much exclusively, so that's the norm for me.
"If you want to play this game, then you must choose one of these characters"? Not so much.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937675Is that something that appeals to people, or is that de-protagonising you in a story-game like way?
I don't see it as connected in any way to protagonization, pro or con. I just want to be able to create my own character. And, strangely enough, I absolutely love random chargen and having the dice tell me what character to play, but a person doing so (outside of things like pregens for one-shots) really rubs me the wrong way.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937694Point is, would anyone want to play a character whose 'progression' is all laid out in-front of them?
Oh. Well. If
that's the point, then I'm absolutely not interested. I prefer for characters to evolve organically through play. Having all future development plotted out for you before play begins is anathema to me.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937690Well, for a start, it will be unique to each character, rather than a 'class' as a template, and creating a character from that template. So, if you define a singular use of a template as a class, then i guess you're right.
How is this not class but with a character name instead?
"You choose your stats, you do your background, you change the name if you want, but instead of class abilities based on level, you get character abilities unique to each character in the book based on character level."
If I am able to change: stats, background, and name but not skills, equipment, and progression. How is this not a class?
Even if everything is subject to change except progression, how is that not a class?
I think this is a fantastic idea to get kids started with tabletop role-playing games at a younger age by playing characters and not classes.
When I think about back when I was first given a Monster Manual by one of the neighborhood teenagers, we were still playing pretend in the back yard. I was 7 or 8, and we used the book to determine what sort of monsters we were fighting in the sandbox (our pirate ship).
When I got a little bit older (11 or 12), I started to figure out that the Monster Manual was actually more of a game than simply a book full of pictures and stories. I remember trying to figure things out, and writing up characters to play from Big Trouble In Little China. We didn't have a Player's Handbook at the time, only the MM, the DMG and a handful of Monopoly dice we used to substitute all the funky dice we didn't yet have. So we made Wang, Jack Burton and we fought each other playing the Three Storms, using devils from the MM. Of course, we didn't quite yet grasp that classes were something more important and unique. We continued in this tradition, plucking stuff out of the Monster Manual to construct our favorite characters from movies: Indiana Jones, Arthur from Excalibur and the like.
Granted, I have only been a kid once (and my son is only 7 months old), but playing characters made a lot of sense to me and my friends when we were little because it's the way that I was able to understand how the game worked before getting our hands on the Player's Handbook.
Quote from: Sommerjon;937886How is this not class but with a character name instead?
"You choose your stats, you do your background, you change the name if you want, but instead of class abilities based on level, you get character abilities unique to each character in the book based on character level."
If I am able to change: stats, background, and name but not skills, equipment, and progression. How is this not a class?
Even if everything is subject to change except progression, how is that not a class?
If it makes you happy, yes it's a class. Now go away.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;937891I think this is a fantastic idea to get kids started with tabletop role-playing games at a younger age by playing characters and not classes.
When I think about back when I was first given a Monster Manual by one of the neighborhood teenagers, we were still playing pretend in the back yard. I was 7 or 8, and we used the book to determine what sort of monsters we were fighting in the sandbox (our pirate ship).
When I got a little bit older (11 or 12), I started to figure out that the Monster Manual was actually more of a game than simply a book full of pictures and stories. I remember trying to figure things out, and writing up characters to play from Big Trouble In Little China. We didn't have a Player's Handbook at the time, only the MM, the DMG and a handful of Monopoly dice we used to substitute all the funky dice we didn't yet have. So we made Wang, Jack Burton and we fought each other playing the Three Storms, using devils from the MM. Of course, we didn't quite yet grasp that classes were something more important and unique. We continued in this tradition, plucking stuff out of the Monster Manual to construct our favorite characters from movies: Indiana Jones, Arthur from Excalibur and the like.
Granted, I have only been a kid once (and my son is only 7 months old), but playing characters made a lot of sense to me and my friends when we were little because it's the way that I was able to understand how the game worked before getting our hands on the Player's Handbook.
Good point. I think this is also a case where the artwork will matter more than most other cases. A striking (and most importantly
individual) piece of artwork for each character will draw the eye and maybe the rest will take care of itself.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937892If it makes you happy, yes it's a class. Now go away.
Makes my other post rather poignant.
Quote from: SommerjonAround here they have no desire for discussion, they want agreement.
Maybe what you should be asking yourself there Skippy, if I, Sommerjon, had posted.
"So picture the scene if you will. you've just bought the Players Handbook for a new game that you like the look of. It has a few bits on character generation, but instead of character classes, it has characters.
No Druid. But it does have Selma the Herbalist, Davith, Moon Master and Scillia Vulture-Borne. No Fighters, but it does have Sir Reginald of Hagwich, Peregrin Whipsnap, and Hannah from Montana *.
You choose your stats, you do your background, you change the name if you want, but instead of class abilities based on level, you get character abilities unique to each character in the book based on character level.
Effectively a living Players Handbook - maybe some bright spark releases half a dozen new characters every month or so at an online outlet.
Is that something that appeals to people, or is that de-protagonising you in a story-game like way?
Have at it!"If you think the responses would be the same you are seriously deluding yourself.
Lunamancer lays out the "why" very ably. Nicely done. As for the central question:
Not the system of choice here, by far, I'm sure, but the Class Warfare supplement from Dungeon World allows for modular construction for its system. I've been fiddling with it since breaking down and purchasing it and put together a Wood Elf (Ranger/Sharpshooter) as well as a couple of Cleric classes -- a War Priest, using Destroyer/Gorgon/Impervious, and a "Knowledge Cleric" (Devotion/Embodiment/Sage, with access to Revelation and Wisdom spheres). Plus, you can tack on classes based on what the character experiences in play, i.e., you can gain, say, Mastermind as follows:
"Once you have successfully planned and executed a daring heist, you may consider the mastermind specialty an available compendium class. The next time you level up, you may add this specialty to your character instead of choosing a move from your class."
The character really CAN evolve through play, though the base classes in the game are no entirely generic. I would think you could make a generic base, then go from there, which I think you can do with the DCC knockoff, Funnel World. (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/137012/Funnel-World)
Anyhoo, it would seem to me you could do the same thing by taking chunks of a system and balancing the selections against each other, though the difficulty in doing so for something like, say, 5E, I cannot vouch for. I know that, with 2E, the delineation of spells into spheres and schools allowed for some easy construction of various profiles or "sub-classes," but having a straight "classless" system, to me, requires a basic skills and attribute list, with power purchases, which is what SW and other systems do already.
(On a final note, the aforementioned DW supplement I mentioned has an "Adventurer" archetype, with such things as Wayfarer, Sage, Shopkeeper and such on it, meaning one could develop a plain ol' "person" who decided to go adventuring for whatever reason--but DW leaves a lot of stuff to player/GM interplay, so, again, easier to do, depending on the system involved.).
Quote from: One Horse Town;937675So picture the scene if you will. you've just bought the Players Handbook for a new game that you like the look of. It has a few bits on character generation, but instead of character classes, it has characters.
No Druid. But it does have Selma the Herbalist, Davith, Moon Master and Scillia Vulture-Borne. No Fighters, but it does have Sir Reginald of Hagwich, Peregrin Whipsnap, and Hannah from Montana *.
You choose your stats, you do your background, you change the name if you want, but instead of class abilities based on level, you get character abilities unique to each character in the book based on character level.
Effectively a living Players Handbook - maybe some bright spark releases half a dozen new characters every month or so at an online outlet.
Is that something that appeals to people, or is that de-protagonising you in a story-game like way?
Have at it!
* Not really
And as for the OP's idea, it sounds like a nice time saver. I'm not sure whether we would actually use it or not. All my players seem to have their own ideas for PCs, and many of them. I guess I'd need to see an example?
I could see something like this being super useful to GM's as well.
Quote from: Sommerjon;937896Makes my other post rather poignant.
Maybe what you should be asking yourself there Skippy, if I, Sommerjon, had posted.
"So picture the scene if you will. you've just bought the Players Handbook for a new game that you like the look of. It has a few bits on character generation, but instead of character classes, it has characters.
No Druid. But it does have Selma the Herbalist, Davith, Moon Master and Scillia Vulture-Borne. No Fighters, but it does have Sir Reginald of Hagwich, Peregrin Whipsnap, and Hannah from Montana *.
You choose your stats, you do your background, you change the name if you want, but instead of class abilities based on level, you get character abilities unique to each character in the book based on character level.
Effectively a living Players Handbook - maybe some bright spark releases half a dozen new characters every month or so at an online outlet.
Is that something that appeals to people, or is that de-protagonising you in a story-game like way?
Have at it!"
If you think the responses would be the same you are seriously deluding yourself.
I don't care what it's called! It's just an idea posted to a message board! I'm not trying to score points here - you are. It's a shame, because you actually used to post about games rather than people. Go back to doing that.
Quote from: cranebump;937898Lunamancer lays out the "why" very ably. Nicely done. As for the central question:
Not the system of choice here, by far, I'm sure, but the Class Warfare supplement from Dungeon World allows for modular construction for its system. I've been fiddling with it since breaking down and purchasing it and put together a Wood Elf (Ranger/Sharpshooter) as well as a couple of Cleric classes -- a War Priest, using Destroyer/Gorgon/Impervious, and a "Knowledge Cleric" (Devotion/Embodiment/Sage, with access to Revelation and Wisdom spheres). Plus, you can tack on classes based on what the character experiences in play, i.e., you can gain, say, Mastermind as follows:
"Once you have successfully planned and executed a daring heist, you may consider the mastermind specialty an available compendium class. The next time you level up, you may add this specialty to your character instead of choosing a move from your class."
The character really CAN evolve through play, though the base classes in the game are no entirely generic. I would think you could make a generic base, then go from there, which I think you can do with the DCC knockoff, Funnel World. (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/137012/Funnel-World)
Anyhoo, it would seem to me you could do the same thing by taking chunks of a system and balancing the selections against each other, though the difficulty in doing so for something like, say, 5E, I cannot vouch for. I know that, with 2E, the delineation of spells into spheres and schools allowed for some easy construction of various profiles or "sub-classes," but having a straight "classless" system, to me, requires a basic skills and attribute list, with power purchases, which is what SW and other systems do already.
(On a final note, the aforementioned DW supplement I mentioned has an "Adventurer" archetype, with such things as Wayfarer, Sage, Shopkeeper and such on it, meaning one could develop a plain ol' "person" who decided to go adventuring for whatever reason--but DW leaves a lot of stuff to player/GM interplay, so, again, easier to do, depending on the system involved.).
I think someone has already mentioned Beyond the Wall as a similar kind of thing.
Maybe i should have just called the thread - 'Pre/Post Gens, not Classes' ;)
Quote from: One Horse Town;937892If it makes you happy, yes it's a class. Now go away.
Give the troll some credit. SJ's actually making an attempt to engage with a forum topic instead of his standard
rile up the grogs and
contribute nothing but personal bile approaches. I'm surprised; I didn't think he had it in him.
Quote from: K Peterson;937903Give the troll some credit. SJ's actually making an attempt to engage with a forum topic instead of his standard rile up the grogs and contribute nothing but personal bile approaches. I'm surprised; I didn't think he had it in him.
Would you play a pre-gen with the usual 'class' stuff already planned out for you?
Quote from: One Horse Town;937675... instead of character classes, it has characters.
No Druid. But it does have Selma the Herbalist, Davith, Moon Master and Scillia Vulture-Borne. No Fighters, but it does have Sir Reginald of Hagwich, Peregrin Whipsnap, and Hannah from Montana *.
You choose your stats, you do your background, you change the name if you want, but instead of class abilities based on level, you get character abilities unique to each character in the book based on character level.
It sounds interesting as a character template / iconic character / primer-for-roleplaying approach. Something that would work well for an introductory product, playable out of the 'box'. You've could have predefined relationships between your
characters, defining why they're adventuring together; a story arc to explain their advancement options.
I'm not sure I see the utility for experienced gamers. Where predefined
characters might just be an obstruction for their own character concepts.
EDIT: Sorry, One Horse Town, I didn't see your question before posting this. To answer: it probably wouldn't be that beneficial to me, since I don't play class/level systems. :) But if you took the same approach; applied it to BRP, or a derivative; gave suggestions on how the characters' advancement would occur based on how earned skill points were applied at stages in their life; or how they'd focus training on specific skills; then, I'd have some interest.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937675So picture the scene if you will. you've just bought the Players Handbook for a new game that you like the look of. It has a few bits on character generation, but instead of character classes, it has characters.
No Druid. But it does have Selma the Herbalist, Davith, Moon Master and Scillia Vulture-Borne. No Fighters, but it does have Sir Reginald of Hagwich, Peregrin Whipsnap, and Hannah from Montana *.
You choose your stats, you do your background, you change the name if you want, but instead of class abilities based on level, you get character abilities unique to each character in the book based on character level.
Effectively a living Players Handbook - maybe some bright spark releases half a dozen new characters every month or so at an online outlet.
Is that something that appeals to people, or is that de-protagonising you in a story-game like way?
Have at it!
Sounds even more restrictive than classes, just a slew of pre-made characters with level progression. All well and good if someone likes what you pre-made, and if you can change the names and stats what are you getting exactly? Is each one unique with special abilities? Are some far more powerful than others? A player's handbook on character creation also helps a GM create NPCs. To make it work and not have each character just be what comes off the top of the designers head, you'd need a design document that allows for the creation of viable characters that work together at all levels. That design document sounds like a player's handbook with classes. Now the idea of a player's handbook with classes AND a slew of the characters you describe sounds great. Yet it only makes much sense if you have improvement options as a character levels-up.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937902I think someone has already mentioned Beyond the Wall as a similar kind of thing.
Maybe i should have just called the thread - 'Pre/Post Gens, not Classes' ;)
Didn't catch that, sorry. I guess I'd have to see an example of what you're shooting for to give you some decent feedback.
Quote from: One Horse Town;937902I think someone has already mentioned Beyond the Wall as a similar kind of thing.
Maybe i should have just called the thread - 'Pre/Post Gens, not Classes' ;)
Beyond the Wall is very much NOT like what you are suggesting;).
This is sort of taking a page from popular video games and board games.
Think Overwatch and Decent/Imperial Assault.
Quote from: Piestrio;937942This is sort of taking a page from popular video games and board games.
Think Overwatch and Decent/Imperial Assault.
Exactly! You pick the character you want to play - if Cherry survives long enough they get a + whatever to thingy, get the special ability wazzoo, and a letter from X giving them Y, meanwhile Jenny picks another character and if they survive long enough they get that musical thingy, a penny chew, and that drawing that does that thing.
Quote from: AsenRG;937930Beyond the Wall is very much NOT like what you are suggesting;).
By itself, no. But what he's suggesting is a kind of cross between an Archetype, a Playbook and a full 3.5 build. A self-contained unique character "class" (if you consider Wolverine in FASERIP to be a "class", that is.)
Quote from: Piestrio;937942This is sort of taking a page from popular video games and board games. Think Overwatch and Decent/Imperial Assault.
Good observation. I think there's also parallels to some miniature games with set characters like Malifaux or Helldorado.
Have you seen this? (https://www.amazon.com/Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-NPC-Codex/dp/1601254679) It is the Pathfinder NPC Codex. It comes close to what you are describing and functionally, it was great for being a source of ready-made templates/complete NPCs for your games which saves a lot of prep time. The downside is that they become stale very quickly as your players get used to Street Vendor instead of Gustav the Street Vendor and the Harlot instead of Ariel the Vicker's Vixen. There are advantages and disadvantages to having templates too.
Are you thinking of creating a product? Or is this just brainstorming?
Feng Shui 1 and 2 pretty much do this, I don't see why it's such a big deal... And the Feng Shui game is one of my all time favourites.
Great to revisit Dragonlance, or any other novelised property...! :)
And then you can splat it out every business quarter to cover famous pieces of lit, now for your own RPG! If zombies can invade Pride & Prejudice and get a movie out of it, why not this?!
In fact, I think we could easily do an exercise on any famous piece of literature. Let's try Wuthering Heights or Little Women!
When a Beth "levels up" she contracts scarlet fever and dies... this will be useful power for a Call of Cthulhu conversion.
Quote from: jeff37923;937953Are you thinking of creating a product? Or is this just brainstorming?
Mainly brainstorming, mate.
I remember writing a module for an old 3.5 Living campaign where the tiers went from 3rd to 13th or thereabouts. I had to Stat up each NPC at every odd level so it was ready for the GM at whichever tier his particular group played it. Jesus, it was tedious and the Stat blocks took up at least as much of the final page count as the actual adventure text. So deciding how many versions of each character to do would be one issue (and obviously be game system dependent).
Engine publishing have done a big book of Stat free PC/NPCs (Masks I think - not got access to my books just now) - might be fun to pick an example from somewhere like that and see what different people come up with?
Is there any particular system you were thinking of doing this for?
It wouldn't necessarily be a dealbreaker by itself, but it would strike me as unusual and possibly gimmicky. Smacks of "IP building."
Funnily enough, HoL is the one RPG I recall doing this.
Quote from: CRKrueger;937952By itself, no. But what he's suggesting is a kind of cross between an Archetype, a Playbook and a full 3.5 build. A self-contained unique character "class" (if you consider Wolverine in FASERIP to be a "class", that is.)
Yes, I know. But it's still a cross between them, at best, and Beyond the Wall has Playbooks that generate hundreds of possible "builds" for the same Archetype.
And I must note that while I like the idea of pre-generated characters, I dislike the idea of being unable to customize their progression. Now, if you make the progression as "at next level, pick and add 1 of the following 9 items, and keep doing it until level 10", I can live with that.
After all, seeing characters develop in answer to the game is part of it. Not all characters can or should develop the same way no matter the campaign.
I could see something like this being very handy for situations with players who aren't interested in learning rules and character building. Just grab a character and start playing. Over time though, I don't see this producing the same kind of player investment in the campaign that you might see if the players had characters that were wholly their own creations.
I haven't seen anyone new bothered by taking a pregen character in D&D, but most have their own character ideas by the time they get to their next character. And I think they would be bothered if they couldn't customize some aspect of the pregen character (name and gender, in particular).
On the plus side, it would be nice to have artwork and a well thought out theme/background for a character, and nice for the GM in avoiding some predictable combinations of a more general character generation system (not quite charop, but just choices that work well together - high elf wizard, wood elf rogue with archery feat, etc). I suspect the main use would be for GMs to come up with unique/interesting NPCs at different levels.
Would a given character have any options on leveling up that could reflect history to that point (that is, choose something more related to combat, or to magic, or to crafting, or to other kinds of skills) rather than always getting the same thing no matter what sort of adventures there have been? Is a backstory or relations to other characters (PC or NPC) included? How many characters would you expect an initial book of this sort to have?
Quote from: AsenRG;938040Yes, I know. But it's still a cross between them, at best, and Beyond the Wall has Playbooks that generate hundreds of possible "builds" for the same Archetype.
And I must note that while I like the idea of pre-generated characters, I dislike the idea of being unable to customize their progression. Now, if you make the progression as "at next level, pick and add 1 of the following 9 items, and keep doing it until level 10", I can live with that.
After all, seeing characters develop in answer to the game is part of it. Not all characters can or should develop the same way no matter the campaign.
I'm with Asen on this one. Pre-gens are nice for one shots, but if you're making a game out of them (A la aforementioned Beyond the Wall, Feng Shui) you need the option to customize, especially if two people want to play the same class (I wanna be a fighter! Me too!)
James Stowe did these for the much-loathed 4th edition D&D,but that aside I thought the concept was great and the art adorable:
(https://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/blogs/geekmom/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/kids-1.dnd_.sheets.daughterofhulabaloo.png)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BRQYcCsW7nA/TmbvfQ58QsI/AAAAAAAAAHI/jX7FxuOdgwo/s1600/barrett.dnd.sheet.sonofbruld.png)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NdiOP0in4UU/TmL_E4IUsdI/AAAAAAAAAG0/64zKtxqh54M/s1600/barrett.dnd.sheet.sonofwyr.png)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Fr4TkuSHQac/TmL_FtJArkI/AAAAAAAAAG4/-AqvFJyDvi0/s1600/barrett.dnd.sheet.sonofskulzor.png)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2wcsvR_EIJo/TmL_HiXYLVI/AAAAAAAAAHA/f-o0rSoBC4w/s1600/barrett.dnd.sheet.sonofdormrak.png)
more here: http://jamesstowe.blogspot.ca/2011/09/dnd-for-8-year-olds.html
Savage Worlds campaign Daring Tales of Adventure has pregenerated PCs that have predetermined progression, which is cool in my book.
Quote from: Tristram Evans;938198James Stowe did these for the much-loathed 4th edition D&D,but that aside I thought the concept was great and the art adorable:
(https://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/blogs/geekmom/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/kids-1.dnd_.sheets.daughterofhulabaloo.png)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BRQYcCsW7nA/TmbvfQ58QsI/AAAAAAAAAHI/jX7FxuOdgwo/s1600/barrett.dnd.sheet.sonofbruld.png)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NdiOP0in4UU/TmL_E4IUsdI/AAAAAAAAAG0/64zKtxqh54M/s1600/barrett.dnd.sheet.sonofwyr.png)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Fr4TkuSHQac/TmL_FtJArkI/AAAAAAAAAG4/-AqvFJyDvi0/s1600/barrett.dnd.sheet.sonofskulzor.png)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2wcsvR_EIJo/TmL_HiXYLVI/AAAAAAAAAHA/f-o0rSoBC4w/s1600/barrett.dnd.sheet.sonofdormrak.png)
more here: http://jamesstowe.blogspot.ca/2011/09/dnd-for-8-year-olds.html
I remember those. I thought it was a neat way to get kids into the hobby and it was the first time 4e looked kind of interesting, though I maintain that if it were released under another brand it would probably be better received by some since 4e is a fine tactical combat game.