Ok, so my kohai/sith apprentice/cuban son, finally wants to get on the thankless side of the DM's screen.  

Awesome news, and I want to encourage him, but I think he's being over ambitious.

He still has some fond memories of the Pathfinder Adventure path, Strange Aeons, and wants to go FULL DM as unreliable narrator.

As I'll be helping develop it, I'll be asst. DM and a 'Ringer' in the party, playing a Renfield.

I have vague recollections of a 2300AD adventure in a GDW Magazine that has a similar setup:

Here's his elevator pitch:

The party has already been turned into vampires but don't know it - they see monsters as 'good' and pure, Strahd is a mighty Batman-esque dark avenger/monster hunter, the 'monsters' the players see are going to be innocents and/or hunters, who drop healing potions after every fight (blood).

I'm warning him to A limit his scope and B be prepared for their reactions.

A) I'm going to throw my hardcopy of Ravenloft (original module) and TRY and talk him into a lighter rulesset.  We're currently playing 5e, he and I are fired up to try Fantasycraft, but we're also proficient in GURPS and Savage Worlds.  If he can make it a tight few sessions, anyone that figures it out early (see B) won't feel too 'robbed' or 'spoil his fun'.

B) Worst case scenario - party figures it out early and either walk out on the game, or let their characters die 'doing the right thing' then walk out on the game early.  Lesser 'problem' scenarios are the ones that figure it out and go full evil party, which will be off the reservation.

He's a stubborn fuck, so this will probably happen, I just hope to temper his enthusiasm with some reality.  

Resources and advice folks?

Quote from: LiferGamer;1144818Resources and advice folks?

Woof. Yeah. Sounds like he's biting off a huge chunk for his first time DMing. This scenario has potential to fail spectacularly and piss off the players in the bargain.
But if he's gonna do it, then just be there to provide moral support. Hell, maybe the players will be into it. Ya never know.

That's a really cool premise, but yes, ambitious.  In your place I would talk to the players and explain that he's a first time DM and wants to try some things, so please be understanding and give him a chance if things go awry.  If he's played with the rules he's using, I wouldn't be too worried about that.  It would be best if you knew the players have done something similar in the past and were okay with it.  For an unreliable narrator book to be palatable to me, it needs to be perfectly obvious what's going on if I re-read the book.  Similarly, I expect it would be helpful if he could come up with clues that are obvious in retrospect but not during the initial playthrough.  That's pretty hard, though.  Good luck to both of you.

Picking a tragedy first off is hard. Second, doing it as high concept ambiguity ("print negative") without up front admission rides the "bait-and-switch" line hard. Third I see no real redemption arc or even end goal offered here; this type of moral grey didactic ("judge not least ye be judged") campaign cannot be open-ended without risking as you say table-walks, splatterpunk power fantasies, or farce.

In the end it looks like it will all end in tears. We all got one of those under our belt, so he should totally do it!

The fun thing about literature is you can pull off complex things like low contrast, unreliable narrator murkiness -- but that is because the author is the singular agent (barring "I just follow the characters in my mind" argument). RPGs... they have other players, and they're like herding cats, man. We all gotta flub our first attempts at making a medium do what it isn't.

It'll be educational.

I like the idea, but I think I agree with the commenters that this is ambitious as all get out.

I do applaud the ambition -- but hooooo boy.

Are you presenting Fantasy Craft and GURPS to him as lighter than 5E? On top of 'Everything you know is a LIE,' he wants to do a conversion into one of those systems?

I'd advise Savage Worlds--its lighter than Fantasy Craft and GURPS, more complete than 5E (mass combat, social conflict, better skill system, tangible rewards for playing along, etc.), and an excellent Ravenloft conversion has already been done:

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Library/SWADE_Ravenloft_v1.pdf

Good luck! It sounds like he's taking the car into the curve a bit too fast, but it could still be a hell of a ride.

Quote from: LiferGamer;1144818The party has already been turned into vampires but don't know it - they see monsters as 'good' and pure, Strahd is a mighty Batman-esque dark avenger/monster hunter, the 'monsters' the players see are going to be innocents and/or hunters, who drop healing potions after every fight (blood).

And what will the unreliable narrator DM do when one of the players says "I pick up the potion of healing for later use." How is he going to carry around someone's blood, in his pockets?

Quote from: smcc360;1144849Are you presenting Fantasy Craft and GURPS to him as lighter than 5E? On top of 'Everything you know is a LIE,' he wants to do a conversion into one of those systems?

I'd advise Savage Worlds--its lighter than Fantasy Craft and GURPS, more complete than 5E (mass combat, social conflict, better skill system, tangible rewards for playing along, etc.), and an excellent Ravenloft conversion has already been done:

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Library/SWADE_Ravenloft_v1.pdf

Good luck! It sounds like he's taking the car into the curve a bit too fast, but it could still be a hell of a ride.

Oh God no... he's played GURPS/Savage Worlds and misses GURPS... I'm just ticking off everything that can go bad from the get-go =D.

I may try to convince him to try it in Savage Worlds or an OSR variant of OD&D...

Quote from: Premier;1144853And what will the unreliable narrator DM do when one of the players says "I pick up the potion of healing for later use." How is he going to carry around someone's blood, in his pockets?

I'm guessing my ringer may be the one 'collecting' them.  I'm picturing a dwarven Renfield with mice and bugs living in his beard and a large rattling sack of empty bottles.

Sounds like it's probably going to be a trainwreck, no matter what you do. I'd say let him know what you think, but only once and then shut up, because nagging never helps. From that point, it's your job to help support him. But also have a backup game in your pocket if it derails completely, so it's not a wasted night. And when it does go bad, help put it in perspective. Games that go horribly wrong are often the games people remember fondly, years later.

Well, he's fleshed out some of his ideas, requested I post the notes here, and is going to register to pick our collective brains.

As requested, here's his comments/notes thus far:

QuoteSome inspiration from this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxB3zilGx8Y

TL:DW - there's something called a 'False Hydra' that deadens the perception of everyone that hears its song - the party gets to 'see reality' thanks to a potion (gas) of silence.  Clever DM tricks with white noise, prop-swapping, and trusting players.

Thinking more 6th sense they are seeing what they want to see with the blood (hp potions); and the party is intended to figure it out mid or late game either allying with the Hags and killing Strahd, or trying to redeem themselves and killing the Hags.

I gather that the hags are the jailers keeping Strahd behind the mists, who want to be free of their responsibility.

There's an extended portion of our gaming circle that quite happily played a combat-heavy story based (FIRST TIME GM ASS-PULLING RULES, sorry Nelson), multi layers of reality a la one of those Anime MMO shows that are probably the better portion of our group for this.

Quote from: LiferGamer;1144818Ok, so my kohai/sith apprentice/cuban son, finally wants to get on the thankless side of the DM's screen.  

Awesome news, and I want to encourage him, but I think he's being over ambitious.

He still has some fond memories of the Pathfinder Adventure path, Strange Aeons, and wants to go FULL DM as unreliable narrator.

As I'll be helping develop it, I'll be asst. DM and a 'Ringer' in the party, playing a Renfield.

I have vague recollections of a 2300AD adventure in a GDW Magazine that has a similar setup:

Here's his elevator pitch:

The party has already been turned into vampires but don't know it - they see monsters as 'good' and pure, Strahd is a mighty Batman-esque dark avenger/monster hunter, the 'monsters' the players see are going to be innocents and/or hunters, who drop healing potions after every fight (blood).

I'm warning him to A limit his scope and B be prepared for their reactions.

A) I'm going to throw my hardcopy of Ravenloft (original module) and TRY and talk him into a lighter rulesset.  We're currently playing 5e, he and I are fired up to try Fantasycraft, but we're also proficient in GURPS and Savage Worlds.  If he can make it a tight few sessions, anyone that figures it out early (see B) won't feel too 'robbed' or 'spoil his fun'.

B) Worst case scenario - party figures it out early and either walk out on the game, or let their characters die 'doing the right thing' then walk out on the game early.  Lesser 'problem' scenarios are the ones that figure it out and go full evil party, which will be off the reservation.

He's a stubborn fuck, so this will probably happen, I just hope to temper his enthusiasm with some reality.  

Resources and advice folks?

Once I realized that I was already a vampire, I'd drop the charade and just do what vampires do.

Quote from: Razor 007;1144902Once I realized that I was already a vampire, I'd drop the charade and just do what vampires do.

Sparkle prettily?

Quote from: LiferGamer;1144875Well, he's fleshed out some of his ideas, requested I post the notes here, and is going to register to pick our collective brains.

As requested, here's his comments/notes thus far:



I gather that the hags are the jailers keeping Strahd behind the mists, who want to be free of their responsibility.

There's an extended portion of our gaming circle that quite happily played a combat-heavy story based (FIRST TIME GM ASS-PULLING RULES, sorry Nelson), multi layers of reality a la one of those Anime MMO shows that are probably the better portion of our group for this.

Some thoughts.

A: Yeah this is an ambitious starter. But That is how alot of DMs get started. Myself included when I started DMing TSRs Marvel Superheroes. Think of it as a learning experience.

The False Hydra idea is not new and goes wayyyyyyyyyyyyy back.

Some ways to pull it off.

Easiest is... A curse. Either in items they all wear, or a spell. It makes them see things effectively reversed in alignment and demeanor. This goes all the way back to early D&D as there were things like cursed swords and rings that made the wearer believe they were doing X and in fact nothing was happening, or it was actually made worse.

Second easiest is to pluck an idea from Haze. The blood they acquire from soulless Barovians has a sort of perception editing effect on undead. They see the normal as horrible and the abnormal as good. And due to how 5e Barovia is set up, they are unlikely to ever not be effected as there are alot of the souless.

Third is not so easy. But can be alot of fun to reveal. The PVs have been tricked by various ruses and lies and their targets are carefully selected and set up to keep them believeing these lies. Theres allways some proof at the site that what they were told is true.

example: The PCs are told they are under a wasting curse that causes them to sometimes "see things wrong" and that if they do not recover special 'essence' from the fallen foes they will continue to waste away and perish. So they might be given tools to extract blood from people and its stores in vials plugged into the tool. Similar to a medical blood sample device. Keeping up the ruse will be hard. But then it will be hard no matter. But when the reveal comes and the PCs realize that no magic was used at all. BOOM!

i've changed plenty about the module before, making strahd dracula and barovia into bavaria in the HRE, but making the players vampires working for strahd seems like a total inversion; half the fun is exploring the castle and killing spooky stuff ala castlevania; not saying it wouldn't work but maybe vampire the angsty twat would be a better rule system for that type of play. i can't speak to 5e as I use D6 system but D&D vampires front load the players with power unless you take a 3e template approach.