Quote from: CRKrueger;805599Heh those shame-culture warrior societies, gotta love 'em.  I wonder how all the "never PvP" crowd do playing Vikings or Samurai.  Do you not allow PCs to insult other PCs honor either?   What about their family's honor?  Someone to who you didn't know they had giri?  Hell, how do you even think about running a Roman campaign without the possibility of PvP?

I've played, sporadically, in feudal Japan-based campaigns; a few months in a Bushido campaign, once.  We didn't go out of our way either to insult one another or take insult in each other's comments.

Now yes -- I agree that if you're playing one of those hyper-touchy milieus straight, where you're expected to Take Offense at the drop of a hat upon the slightest off-color comment (real or imagined), you'd better not be anti-PvP.  What exactly did you expect for an answer?

But sheesh, that's a play choice.  I don't like comedic/slapstick milieus, so I don't play in them.  I don't like horror, so I don't play in it.  I don't like dungeon fantasy, so I don't play that.  I don't like D&D, so I don't play it.  We each have the game styles, milieus, features and rules sets we enjoy, and the ones we don't.  

I'm somewhat surprised at the number of people here who have such a hard time wrapping their heads around that.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;805351Unrestrained PvP is jet fuel for a serious asshole player.

Catching up with a few comments, I'm in complete agreement with this.  The notion that PvP is somehow the antidote to the asshole is farcical: it's the medium in which the assholes swim.  For every group where PvP is used to "autocorrect" assholes, I've seen a half-dozen where the assholes justify themselves through waving the PvP card.  The way to deal with assholes isn't to allow other players to kill their characters; the way to deal with assholes is for GMs and groups to have the basic maturity it takes to confront and deal with them, OOC, and to eject them from groups if they don't shape up.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;805396Whoah, no-one said anything about backstabbing! Touchy as fuck over here. Seriously though, what happened to you? A "sin"?

Well aren't you just special.  So you've never before in your life encountered someone with a strong opinion on something?  I get to have a mad on for the things I have a mad on for, I'm unlikely to ask your permission, and I don't feel the need to justify that to smarmy assholes or anyone else.

Quote from: Bren;805506In my experience, assholes are always fairly obvious and easy to detect. Apparently that ability is not universal since I am sometimes surprised when other people seem to take what seems eons to notice that shit.

I think you're missing the problem.  It's not that gamers can't ID assholes.  It's that so many gamers are GSK prisoners who'll go to huge lengths -- up to and including watching their groups disintegrate around them -- to do anything about them.

Quote from: Bren;805558You use the term "sin" unironically in the context of playing an RPG and pendantry is the thing you think is the problem in this discussion. Seriously?

As long as there are people hung up on colloquialisms and slang, yeah.  I really don't feel the need to defend my word choices, either.  If you're hellbent on ascribing hidden meanings to simple words in an Internet discussion, yeah, whatever, knock yourself out.

Quote from: Ravenswing;805640What exactly did you expect for an answer?

I wasn't expecting "we don't", but that sure answers my question.

Quote from: Ravenswing;805640I'm somewhat surprised at the number of people here who have such a hard time wrapping their heads around that.

Don't have a problem with that, just a little surprised that iconic cultures, tropes, genres, scenarios are off the table because of the belief that PvP always leads to Knights of the Dinner Table behavior, when it really doesn't have to.

Quote from: Ravenswing;805641The way to deal with assholes isn't to allow other players to kill their characters; the way to deal with assholes is for GMs and groups to have the basic maturity it takes to confront and deal with them, OOC, and to eject them from groups if they don't shape up.

I don't think PvP or rules against PvP do anything against an asshole player.  You kick 'em out, then go ahead and play with non-assholes.  If someone's not an asshole, the mere option of the freedom to attack another PC isn't going to turn them into an asshole anymore then it turns you into a workplace shooter.

Quote from: CRKrueger;805643Don't have a problem with that, just a little surprised that iconic cultures, tropes, genres, scenarios are off the table because of the belief that PvP always leads to Knights of the Dinner Table behavior, when it really doesn't have to.

The vast majority of players, honestly, don't give a shit about cultures, tropes, genres, scenarios, or anything else besides goofing around and maybe throwing some dice.

Sure, I'd be interested in a Samurai or Viking type game, and you bet your nuts I'd be careful about what I said in character.

Just like I'd love to play a Pendragon game.  But most gamers aren't interested in anything as detailed or involved as Pendragon.

90% of everything is crap, and that includes the population of RPG tabletop players.  And PvP becomes just another tool for them to express their crapitude.

The mere fact we're talking about this makes us part of a small minority, just like those of us model railroaders who actually try to run our basement empires like a real railroad are in the small majority.

There is a reason WoW is the way it is, and makes as much money as it does.  "The game that knows what you want, and gives it to you."

And, of course, what constitutes PvP?

If Robilar goes off to China to find the Hootercups of Eternal Perkiness to trade at the Temple of the Eager Virgin for the Peener of Vecna,

but my character seduces Hornelia the Insatiable, High Priestess of the Temple of the Eager Virgin, and she GIVES me the Peener of Vecna,

and when Robilar gets back, I tell him that he can have the Peener of Vecna in exchange for a lifetime supply of beer...

is that PvP?

The real question is, who is gonna be the dude who cuts off his peener to apply the Peener of Vecna?

Quote from: jibbajibba;805639Idealism
Ego
Money
Power
Sex
Envy
Sloth
self preservation

The usual reasons Kids join street gangs, people join the army and folk sign up to join the circus

Notice how that didn't answer the question

Quote from: Old Geezer;805645And, of course, what constitutes PvP?

If Robilar goes off to China to find the Hootercups of Eternal Perkiness to trade at the Temple of the Eager Virgin for the Peener of Vecna,

but my character seduces Hornelia the Insatiable, High Priestess of the Temple of the Eager Virgin, and she GIVES me the Peener of Vecna,

and when Robilar gets back, I tell him that he can have the Peener of Vecna in exchange for a lifetime supply of beer...

is that PvP?

No it is only PvP if your character rolls initiative to beat Robilar over the head with the Peener of Vecna.

Otherwise it is just two characters pursuing their own goals.

Yeah, let's clarify that there's a spectrum. I'm fine with player conflicts, within reason.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;805648The real question is, who is gonna be the dude who cuts off his peener to apply the Peener of Vecna?

No the real question is what character is leaving the Temple of the Eager Virgin? That's end game crap where my character just says "no I'm good here" and then roll another character.

The other question might be what Geezer is smoking?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;805648The real question is, who is gonna be the dude who cuts off his peener to apply the Peener of Vecna?

* hands you Peener of Vecna *

You first...

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;805652No the real question is what character is leaving the Temple of the Eager Virgin? That's end game crap where my character just says "no I'm good here" and then roll another character.

The other question might be what Geezer is smoking?

My regular Monday night Roll20 game with my buddy in the DPRK is off tonight because his ISP is down or whatever.  The dude is the poster child for a railroading DM, but he seems to have an uncanny ability to get perfect player attendance for his games, and it seems like he's got an army of artists and voice actors to support the game, so that's pretty cool. Anyway, he condones and encourages PvP when it suits him.

Anyway, I'd too would like to hear more about this Temple of the Eager Virgin adventure since I've got this unexpected down time.

Quote from: Will;805651Yeah, let's clarify that there's a spectrum. I'm fine with player conflicts, within reason.

Good point.

"We are a bunch of Samurai, so an insult will be avenged with blood"

is different from

"I'm gonna screw him over hurr durr hurr durr"

Quote from: Natty Bodak;805654Anyway, I'd too would like to hear more about this Temple of the Eager Virgin adventure since I've got this unexpected down time.

So you're saying this should be a participation reward for my Kickstarter?

Quote from: Sommerjon;805649Notice how that didn't answer the question

It absolutely answered the question. Those are reel life things I see in the world everyday for the reasons why people are in relationships, endeavors, and business with people that would absolutely stab them in the back.

You could add:
Laziness
Hero complexes
Faith
Allegiance
And many others... but it doesn't mean that in the end you should expect characters vested in their goals will not do everything possible to achieve their goals for good or bad.

And why not let the players play it out if they want
Maybe the cleric is called to bring that nasty necromancer back to the light. Maybe the necromancer doesn't take kindly to that. The fighter just wants to keep the party together long enough to avenge his dead parents and doesn't care from there. But the thief needs the necromancer and priest to work together to beat the lich he knows is in this dungeon but the thief hasn't told anyone because he expects them all to die and he will keep all the loot.

Or something.