I'm doing some advance prep for my Rifts game, and I've set myself the task of genre-hopping as much as possible, just to amp up the gonzo/kitchen sink aspects of the setting for my young group of players who had never heard of it before this year.  I've already done some magic, some horror, and plenty of sci-fi.  I have a supervillain prepped and have a fish-out-of-water encounter planned for him.  I have a Mission Impossible-inspired heist rolling around in my brain as well.

Today I turned towards dungeon crawling and busted out my Half Price Books-bought copy of 'Base Raiders - Superpowered Dungeon Crawling.'  It's about cracking open supervillain bases and looting them.  Seems like a great thematic fit for Rifts.

I flip to the section under Running the Game called Base Building Rules, page 187.  It starts off by determining what the players know about the base.  It expands on this and describes how to determine the result of the players researching the base.  Then it says, "The GM can build it now using this information," and I'm just shocked.  Let me quote it first:

"Once this process is complete, the base will have 7 aspects to describe it, one for each of the 7 major elements of the base.  The gamemaster has to create an adventure based on this information, but now the players have an idea of what to expect - of course they won't know how much of their information is accurate, slightly incorrect, or outright wrong."

What's missing from that?  Oh, I don't know, what about a map, encounters, specific obstacles with game stats/rules, or even loot?  You know, the stuff a dungeon crawler does well?

Yes, it provides a good deal of thematic information described in single sentences that could serve as idea fodder.  But am I alone in thinking this falls far, far short of 'Base Building'?

Seems like the whole idea of a Gamemaster doing a truckload of work around what the players dreamed up is just tossed in here as an afterthought.

Never played Rifts but this sounds more like a guidebook to me. What you are describing for what should be in a dungeon crawl sounds more like the contents of an adventure module than a 'How to' type of general guide. Was this book marketed as a ready to play adventure?

Quote from: Exploderwizard on February 13, 2024, 11:44:26 AM
Never played Rifts but this sounds more like a guidebook to me. What you are describing for what should be in a dungeon crawl sounds more like the contents of an adventure module than a 'How to' type of general guide. Was this book marketed as a ready to play adventure?

I should have been more clear, sorry.  It's not a Rifts book.  The back of the book bills 'Base Raiders - Superpowered Dungeon Crawling' as 'a complete role playing game'.  I flipped it open for guidance and inspiration on building a technology-driven dungeon for my players to crawl.

Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 11:57:00 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on February 13, 2024, 11:44:26 AM
Never played Rifts but this sounds more like a guidebook to me. What you are describing for what should be in a dungeon crawl sounds more like the contents of an adventure module than a 'How to' type of general guide. Was this book marketed as a ready to play adventure?

I should have been more clear, sorry.  It's not a Rifts book.  The back of the book bills 'Base Raiders - Superpowered Dungeon Crawling' as 'a complete role playing game'.  I flipped it open for guidance and inspiration on building a technology-driven dungeon for my players to crawl.

Oh ok, but a complete rpg might be just that, unless it advertises ready to play adventures are included.

I just feel like a 'complete base building system' should generate a base.

Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 12:10:31 PM
I just feel like a 'complete base building system' should generate a base.

OK ,so what you are looking for is a collection of tables that could be used to create an actual adventure location with contents. That is a more reasonable expectation for such a book.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on February 13, 2024, 12:24:01 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 12:10:31 PM
I just feel like a 'complete base building system' should generate a base.

OK ,so what you are looking for is a collection of tables that could be used to create an actual adventure location with contents. That is a more reasonable expectation for such a book.

Yes, that would be something for a Gamemaster to use, and warranted, I'd think.

What they have now is more a conversation starter.  A seed generator, or similar.

Base Raiders is a hippie-game by Ross Payton from Roleplaying Public Radio (one of the older ttrpg podcasts). Their recorded APs are hilarious but yeah they're drippin' wet woke SJWs. So naturally his game is trash.

Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 12:10:31 PM
I just feel like a 'complete base building system' should generate a base.

Yeah, for sure. Sounds like this book is hot garbage.

Quote from: Theory of Games on February 13, 2024, 12:40:00 PM
Base Raiders is a hippie-game by Ross Payton from Roleplaying Public Radio (one of the older ttrpg podcasts). Their recorded APs are hilarious but yeah they're drippin' wet woke SJWs. So naturally his game is trash.

Well that says it all. SJW's avoid good gameable content like vampires avoid garlic.

Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 10:44:21 AM
"Once this process is complete, the base will have 7 aspects to describe it, one for each of the 7 major elements of the base.  The gamemaster has to create an adventure based on this information, but now the players have an idea of what to expect - of course they won't know how much of their information is accurate, slightly incorrect, or outright wrong."

Seems like the whole idea of a Gamemaster doing a truckload of work around what the players dreamed up is just tossed in here as an afterthought.

Players: Hey wait a minute, this isn't what we came up with. You're supposed to run a base using the ideas we gave you.

GM: What are you talking about? That's exactly what I'm doing! Unfortunately (and as the book clearly states) you were given bad intel. So everything you think you know is wrong.

Lazily written material that negates itself shouldn't exist. There are better ways to prompt players to help the GM create scenarios they'd like to play than fostering self-entitled expectations.

Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 12:10:31 PM
I just feel like a 'complete base building system' should generate a base.

Except from your description it sounds kinda storygame-esque? The "build a base with 7 aspects" sounds right out of FATE.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 13, 2024, 02:17:22 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 12:10:31 PM
I just feel like a 'complete base building system' should generate a base.

Except from your description it sounds kinda storygame-esque? The "build a base with 7 aspects" sounds right out of FATE.

It does.  It says it used the FATE system on the back cover.  I'm unfamiliar with FATE outside of its wonky dice.  Is that why it needs no structure?

Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 02:18:46 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 13, 2024, 02:17:22 PM

Quote from: mcbobbo on February 13, 2024, 12:10:31 PM
I just feel like a 'complete base building system' should generate a base.

Except from your description it sounds kinda storygame-esque? The "build a base with 7 aspects" sounds right out of FATE.

It does.  It says it used the FATE system on the back cover.  I'm unfamiliar with FATE outside of its wonky dice.  Is that why it needs no structure?

Wrestling rules out of FATE is like trying to grab smoke. It's all about creating Aspects from scratch, interpreting what those aspects are and how you think they should work, etc. There are mechanics, but a lot of it is hazy and open to interpretation. I have Spirit Of The Century which uses FATE, and the book has 'stats' for like 4 major villains, and that's it. You're expected to make your own.

I also has the Dresden Files rpg that uses FATE, and at the beginning the whole group are supposed to come together and create the city the players will be based in as a cooperative effort using Aspects.

Those versions of FATE are badly out of date, and are clunky as hell.  The current version is much, much more streamlined and easier to both understand and apply.

mcbobbo, Base Raiders is not going to help you much, I'm afraid.  It sounds like you're looking for something more OSR-like that generates a base for you and Base Raiders is Not That.