Black Crusade is a game where the players are in a more proactive position. As heretics they are charting a course to glory not disimilar to how pirates act under the jolly roger, choosing what to plunder and where to go. Planning to run this again has me wondering how to get the players into this frame of mind as it's not the norm for them. How best to approach this?
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;650168Black Crusade is a game where the players are in a more proactive position. As heretics they are charting a course to glory not disimilar to how pirates act under the jolly roger, choosing what to plunder and where to go. Planning to run this again has me wondering how to get the players into this frame of mind as it's not the norm for them. How best to approach this?
You mean like a sandbox?
"Sandbox" seems widely used to mean that, what used to be called simply a "campaign." Other people (whether earnestly or as an "anti-sandbox" ploy) use it in other ways.
If people are habituated to being led by the nose along a "plot line," it can be very hard to break trained reflexes of which they may not even be aware.
A good first step is to set up a branching scenario. Give them from the start a short menu of clear objectives they can pursue if nothing else strikes their fancy.
This "choose from the menu" approach has them making strategic choices without needing to take total responsibility for coming up with initiatives.
By "branching scenario," I mean a situation that is pretty likely to evolve in one of several anticipated directions, with a limited set of critical decision points
A flow chart of the basic structure might sort of resemble a dungeon map, except that at some points there's no turning around to go back to the same "room." That's because some of the "places" are really states that have either arisen and passed away or become no longer possible of arising.
I'm NOT recommending that you should try to force events to conform to this structure! If the players are having fun going off the beaten path, so much the better.
The key is that there will still be a beaten path, albeit one with sgnificant branches rather than a one-line "railroad." Part of your job will be to make sure there are enough clues to potential lines of development to keep the players from feeling lost at sea.
Quote from: Piestrio;650175You mean like a sandbox?
Yes, I suppose that is the right phrase. That word didn't occur to me while i posted.
Most of the campaigns we play are sandbox style. The two important bits, I think, are getting all the players to establish what their characters want and getting the GM to establish a setting interesting enough that the characters want to go out and get what they want.
Generally a few hooks here and there are good and we tend to have some big overarching plots going on that keeps things interesting.
I feel I should give them a map to the Screaming Vortex and let them go from there. Although they likely won't know where to start as it's a weird place, never mind the neighbouring zones. 40k is a big place.
Ironically, a lot of what FFG has created for the SV is somewhat bland: the more warp infested worlds are just shitholes with nothing going on except a few fucked up humans being tortured by daemons!
FFG has some weird ideas.
So I have a Renegade former medicae person likely going to end up serving Nurgle (i don't think the player realises how unpleasant that will be!), and a Heretek likely going to follow Tzeentch (both gods hate each other). No Astartes. I ran a heavily modified (ie fucked up) version of the Temple of Lies (I had to edit it because the main antagonist would have chewed them right up otherwise; his single attack does insane damage).
What sort of ship do they have? It might be easier for the group to concentrate their efforts in a smaller area for a while, especially if they have some hooks to work with from the get go.
If they are all about the filthy lucre then maybe start off with an event like a big space hulk or some newly discovered worlds appearing. Rumours abound that they are full of easy pickings and all sorts are looking to take advantage in a gold rushesque manner.
You just need to come up with reasons why the local Imperial forces aren't getting in on it in a manner that would stop anyone else, but to me it sounds like ensuring that the sector your group is operating in is rife with problems tying up the local resources of the navy, etc, would be a good idea.
Quote from: Swiss Toni;650314What sort of ship do they have? It might be easier for the group to concentrate their efforts in a smaller area for a while, especially if they have some hooks to work with from the get go.
If they are all about the filthy lucre then maybe start off with an event like a big space hulk or some newly discovered worlds appearing. Rumours abound that they are full of easy pickings and all sorts are looking to take advantage in a gold rushesque manner.
You just need to come up with reasons why the local Imperial forces aren't getting in on it in a manner that would stop anyone else, but to me it sounds like ensuring that the sector your group is operating in is rife with problems tying up the local resources of the navy, etc, would be a good idea.
Space travel/ships are not an aspect FFG has dealt with effectively (even though you can have skills to that end). Acquisition of a starship would be handled with an Infamy roll,but starting characters haven't enough Infamy at that point to succeed so I would have to give them one. In 40k that's a big deal - ships are HUGE! SO they'd have to negotiate passage around the Vortex (which itself is a discussion on its own - how does on navigate a warp storm?).
There are no local imperial forces (unless I choose to create some) within the Vortex. It's the FFG equivalent of the Eye of Terror. The Imperium doesn't function therein, that's the point. It's heretic space.
Quote from: Swiss Toni;650314What sort of ship do they have? It might be easier for the group to concentrate their efforts in a smaller area for a while, especially if they have some hooks to work with from the get go.
If they are all about the filthy lucre then maybe start off with an event like a big space hulk or some newly discovered worlds appearing. Rumours abound that they are full of easy pickings and all sorts are looking to take advantage in a gold rushesque manner.
You just need to come up with reasons why the local Imperial forces aren't getting in on it in a manner that would stop anyone else, but to me it sounds like ensuring that the sector your group is operating in is rife with problems tying up the local resources of the navy, etc, would be a good idea.
They don't have a ship. This is something FFG hasn't dealt with very well at all.
The default system to acquire a ship (the nature of which would be largely gm fiat) is an Infamy roll which new characters won't have enough to succeed. I'd have to give them one, but the nature of ships in 40k makes this a rather big deal, as opposed to just giving someone an X Wing or a Tramp Freighter.
This means they'd have to arrange passage in and around the Vortex (and that's a whole other discussion).
The Imperium isn't really a presence in the Vortex, just like the Eye of Terror. It's chaos space, getting into the Vortex would test the faith of the most ardent Inquisitor!
(Somewhere an Astropath on the interweb is having a very large headache)
Ok my posts didn't make it through yesterday.
The PC's dont' have a ship. FFG have employed mucho handwavium when dealing with this aspect of the setting, particularly in regard to Black Crusade. Getting a ship would be a big deal as they are a bit bigger than X Wings or tramp freighters.
Travel in the Vortex is an interesting subject but again left entirely to the GM. Given how intense the warp is in some areas i'm not sure how one travels given that Navigators would go mad. But chaos fleets use navigators (as well as other things of course).
Part of the story of their adventures would be acquiring such resources.
The Imperium doesn't really have a presence in the Vortex. Getting there would be almost impossible for an Imperial Fleet (presumably to separate the Vortex as as etting). Also being there would probably a) be corrupting and b) mere presence would be enough to be branded heretic. The Imperium aren't really the main enemies wihtin the Vortex, of course there are the sectors beyond, but that's something for another day.
I have seen people struggle with sandboxes, to a degree I didn't really expect. One thing I've been thinking about is to go ahead and start them off with a short plot-oriented adventure after all, rather than only asking what they want to do. And if they come up with some random solution you didn't expect, or ignore it entirely, great! You're into sandbox territory already. But worst case, they finish it out and get their feet under them in the game world, and hopefully have met some rivals and friends and started to get a feel for what they want to accomplish themselves.
Getting the resources is a great way to get them started doing stuff.
I've run a few Star Wars campaigns and one offs centered around a bunch of scoundrels operating in the Outer Rim. While the initial session was basically giving them a starship (a proper bucket though) I also set it up so that they had all worked for the same crime lord and had all been betrayed and captured by the Empire.
The characters also all had 2-3 background features that were there to encourage future adventures (i.e: I owe a Hutt lots of credits).
Escaping from the Imperials, getting the crap ship and wanting revenge for the betrayal was a good way of ensuring they all had a shared purpose to begin with and then everything after that was stuff they wanted to sort based on their characters.
I did introduce a few things here and there, as I didn't want it ending up like some of our old Traveller games which got bogged down with trading.
Obviously 40k is a very different setting, but I reckon some of the conceits of running a scoundrels/smugglers Star Wars game could be used well enough, you'll just have more people dying (mainly the pc's based on when we played Dark Heresy....)
Quote from: Swiss Toni;650587The characters also all had 2-3 background features that were there to encourage future adventures (i.e: I owe a Hutt lots of credits).
Obviously 40k is a very different setting, but I reckon some of the conceits of running a scoundrels/smugglers Star Wars game could be used well enough, you'll just have more people dying (mainly the pc's based on when we played Dark Heresy....)
The difference is one of scale (for the most part). You don't have the Millenium Falcon, you have the Vatican City.
Getting backgrounds out of players, however (even though they do and want to play), is like pulling teeth. They are of the camp that view such things as homework. I've never taken that attitude myself.
They are also somewhat new to 40k.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;650304I feel I should give them a map to the Screaming Vortex and let them go from there. Although they likely won't know where to start as it's a weird place, never mind the neighbouring zones. 40k is a big place.
That's why you also start them off with the means to acquire rumors and ask questions of individuals familiar with the setting.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;650304Ironically, a lot of what FFG has created for the SV is somewhat bland: the more warp infested worlds are just shitholes with nothing going on except a few fucked up humans being tortured by daemons!
See Ladybird's quote in my signature (which is something I continue to be amazed more referees don't seem to realise).
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Quote from: Phillip;650182If people are habituated to being led by the nose along a "plot line," it can be very hard to break trained reflexes of which they may not even be aware.
Work with the player to give their characters some background, get them to speak in first person to the NPCs, referee the setting naturally, and the rest will follow.
The key element at the start is the character background as it forms the context in which the player can make some decision. As the campaign progress the key element to roleplay the setting naturally. This results in things progressing as a combination of the consequences of the player's decisions and the result of events out of the control of the PCs, at the moment.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;650628Getting backgrounds out of players, however (even though they do and want to play), is like pulling teeth.
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In my experience if you leave it up to the player all the ills that folks talk about for character background come to pass.
So what I do is talk to my players about their backgrounds starting with "What kind of character you want to play?". I encourage them to use broad stereotypes and I supply them with options for the details that fit the setting.
The result is at most a paragraph or three. The most important thing this does is provide the initial context in which players can make decisions at the start of the campaign.
I will also mention that it is possible that the group may opt to be part of a larger organization and thus place themselves under orders of a higher authority. Typically campaign starts out with them performing missions.
It still a sandbox as the players chose to do this and can opt out at any time if they are willing to face the consequences of doing so, if the circumstance warrant any consequences.
For example a Traveller Mercenary campaign is one that will have a lot of missions but also one where quitting the Mercenary life has little in the way of negatives consequences if done between jobs.
In the two Wilderlands campaigns I am running the characters are freebooter adventurers wandering from place to place. The other the characters started out as mercenaries and went like this.
1) Signed up with an outfit
2) Went out on a couple of patrols
3) On their time off went and explored a dungeon ruin. Got a lot of money
4) Bought out their contract
5) Went north and joined the Royal Army fighting Vikings
6) Went on some patrols
7) Learned whereabouts of the King of the Vikings
8) Set a successful ambush and bagged the king
9) Sold the ransom to the King of their country. With their King's blessing left the army.
10) Bought the rights to build an inn
11) Lined up contractors and surveyed the site which is located on a crossroad in the wilderness between several settlements.
12) Discovered the Plain of Cairns to the east
13) Setup the construction of the Inn
14) Exploring the barrows, henges, and cairns of Plain of Cairns
Which is where they are at now. They are currently planning to go around and introduce themselves to the local nobles to let them know about the inn. They also found two dozen cottagers and a wilderness hamlet in the region.
Interesting advice on getting backgrounds, estar; I've got some tough nuts to crack in that department (right beside a fellow who will give you a freaking novel).
Quote from: Phillip;651247Interesting advice on getting backgrounds, estar; I've got some tough nuts to crack in that department (right beside a fellow who will give you a freaking novel).
Some people seem to think that asking for character background is asking them to write a freaking novel. I don't know anyone that would want that!
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;650304I feel I should give them a map to the Screaming Vortex and let them go from there. Although they likely won't know where to start as it's a weird place, never mind the neighbouring zones. 40k is a big place.
Ironically, a lot of what FFG has created for the SV is somewhat bland: the more warp infested worlds are just shitholes with nothing going on except a few fucked up humans being tortured by daemons!
FFG has some weird ideas.
So I have a Renegade former medicae person likely going to end up serving Nurgle (i don't think the player realises how unpleasant that will be!), and a Heretek likely going to follow Tzeentch (both gods hate each other). No Astartes. I ran a heavily modified (ie fucked up) version of the Temple of Lies (I had to edit it because the main antagonist would have chewed them right up otherwise; his single attack does insane damage).
Actually, is you read the background information on the Screaming Cortex, the place is riddled with warp gates and you can literally walk from one planet to the next. Players only really need ships if they plan on raiding Imperial space outside the Vortex.
And if you want to work with the Heretics and get them a ship, you can have them start working towards a ship once their Infamy hits around 40 or so, using the Rogue Trader starship purchase and construction rules.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;651963Some people seem to think that asking for character background is asking them to write a freaking novel. I don't know anyone that would want that!
The Rogue Trader cgen system is a wonderful place to work that up. At the beginning of a game, I just ask my players some general details and let them work it up dramatically.